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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • b25nutb25nut Member Posts: 202
    Why isn't the Fusion on your list for potential #2. Since the Suzuki can be eliminated and the list of Acceptable cars is in order of their ranking in that category, the 2013 Fusion is #2 in safety behind only the Accord. The CR report on the Accord states that its two-position memory seats are unique in this class. That is true only because the Fusion has three-position memory. As has been said, all the cars in this class are winners. But I think at least 75% of potential buyers feel the 2013 Fusion is the best looking one, and this is a major factor for many people.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    But I think at least 75% of potential buyers feel the 2013 Fusion is the best looking one, and this is a major factor for many people.

    If this was true then the Kizashi would be selling better even with its questionable future as to who is going to service and supply parts for the next 10 years. That said though, in these situations, do mfrgs not ensure that owners of recently purchased vehicles under wty are not left high and dry? So... except for the CVT in the Suzuki, there is incredible value for the money there now on that car. They are going for close to HALF price are they not?..or let's say 40% off is probably a little more accurate. And it is not like Suzuki is going out of business world-wide. If anyone also wanted to enjoy some exclusivity, and they were within a reasonable distance to a selling dealer, for the price, nothing can touch it. Being the only affordable AWD in the group, doesn't hurt either. If you live in a snow-storm belt the decision is made that much easier. Having owned both, I would also consider Suzuki to have more affordable dependability than a Subaru or AWD Fusion.

    Anyway, I am looking forward to the day when some of these mid-sizers bite the bullet and start offering more affordable running costs with more AWD offerings. This can be done by using gas to drive the front wheels and independent at each corner electric hybrid motors driving the rear when situations dictate it. This is the best of both worlds for economy, by eliminating a heavy mechanical transfer case and associated heavy drive-shafts and differentials when traveling in 2 WD conditions dragging the reardrive components around for the ride 99% of the time (green conditions) but offering immediate electric assist for when conditions warrant. Imagine having the economy of a 2 WD car that has the ability to climb a steep icy driveway home each day, or the w/e jaunt to the cottage that is strictly an AWD road in the off seasons. This tech is coming and I wouldn't be surprised if Toyota will be the first to venture there given their history of hybrid (and AWD) designs in the past. That might be what turns things around with a more decisive result with them. OTOH though, I could also see Kia finally making such a move since there has always been a distinct lack of AWD offerings in cars with them and Hyundai. It is obvious many many people want AWD, and they buy SUVs to get it..but few are ok with the associated extra running costs. And others miss the less stressful handling of the lower CoG that cars afford. People also want interior room though, so I predict far more wagons will be the new norm in these new swappable driven-ended hybrids.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,382
    styling counts, but you have to also be one of the "real" brands to matter.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • smarty669smarty669 Member Posts: 3
    Not only that but,

    Plymouth, Geo, Oldsmobile, Mercury, Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer, Saab, Mitsubishi, Suzuki,...

    Anyone notice a pattern, lol. You might even be able to add Mazda to this list if things don't turn around in the next year.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Mazda? Nah. They have some great vehicles already (Mazda3, CX-5, Miata, CX-9) and the new Mazda6 looks like a winner, with Skyactiv power trains. Read a review of the 2014 Mazda6 in MT today; they were pretty positive. Just in styling, inside and out, it might be best in class. And it will be the only mid-sized family sedan except the Passat with a turbodiesel... but doesn't need the urea add-on.

    I don't know why Mazda doesn't sell more cars. The Mazda3 is very strong in the compact class, and the Mazda6 has been very competitive. Could be if Mazda wants to sell at a higher volume, they'll need to change their "zoom zoom" image, which might not appeal to a broad enough demographic.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    Almost all of your examples here were merely victims of necessary downsizing of redundant offerings. GM being the majority here in one guise or another.

    Mazda is smarting (and rightfully so) because of the way they (didn't) handle premature rusting with the early to mid 2000 cars. They have lost a HUGE previously very loyal buyer base because of that alone. And regardless of how interesting their new offerings might be (a turbo diesel strikes a chord of particular interest to me) it takes time for some to forget/forgive.

    As for ZoomZoom, it is hard to say for sure if that has run its course by now or not. Pontiac flirted with "driver's car" years ago, but did not realize the (apparent) success that VW has had with it.
  • I really don't think it has much to do with the rusting issue. Mazda fell way behind until the last couple of years in miles per gallon. It was definitely a factor in the low sales of the Mazda 6. With skyactiv , they have corrected this. It will take time to build sales again, but they will do it.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    Perhaps it is just my perspective (although surely I am not alone in this thinking if anyone else does the actual math) but premature rust to the degree that these cars experienced it, costs a lot more to address than a 4 or even 7 mpg deficit in their class...even for owners who might do well above the national average miles per year, for even a decade or more.

    But I will give you the fact that many (and perhaps most) don't actually do the math, so incorrect perception might rule in a case such as this.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Not sure what the rust issue was about. I purchased a 2000 626 used in 2006, had been driven in Minnesota all those years. Then and my son drove it in Minnesota and Iowa for 4 more years. No rust at all, just a little corrosion on scuffs on the alloys. And it was a nice-handling car, enjoyable to drive (if underpowered by today's standards) even with well over 100k miles on it. I was more scared about the history of the AT than anything, but it held up also (gave it frequent fluid changes).
  • I've never heard of anyone complaining about excessive Mazda rusting. I did not experience it with either of my two Mazdas, and I live in Wisconsin, where salted roads are usual for a good portion of the year.

    Window sticker MPG is very prominent when comparing models. The CX7 for example was very thirsty compared to its peers. The Mazda6 had very poor mileage numbers for a midsize 4 cylinder. Until Skyactiv, the Mazda3 mpg was not competitive with similar cars. Of course not everyone buys on mpg alone, but it did hurt Mazda sales.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    edited December 2012
    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f19ab51/0

    We also have a lot of personal experience with this in our family and community and 3 sets of friends varying from 1 to 3 hours away, all have terrible rust in all the same places. The 5 wagon and the 3 were the ones most affected to my knowledge. This link is just one of many that will shed some light for you.
    The cars affected in our family and friends, do not park in a heated garage. I have seen some cars though that are so bad I suspect they maybe are put away wet.

    I find it a bit surprising that just in day to day observations you have not seen this for yourselves on cars sitting at the mall. They aren't considered mid sized so maybe that's why.. ;)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited December 2012
    My fam is from Buffalo. You should see some of the land barges that rumbled down my grandparents inner city street. It was at 14th St. on the east side. (Right under the Peace Bridge). (home was sold years ago and they passed).

    Why is this relevant? well, my grandfather ALWAYS bought Malibu's. His was a lovely brown V6 with tan interior, a picture of Jesus hung from the rear view mirror, and the Virgin Mary was affixed to the dash. We went up for Christmas every other year, and I loved it. It snowed EVERY DAY. I loved to sit on the porch an watch rusted out Chevy Caprice, Oldsmobile 98's, Delta 88's, Caddy's, etc. All were rear wheel drive w/ chains. No schools closed. The airport was most always open. Snow was a way of life there. The only cars that could survive were big and brutal. the rears always seemed to be dragging the ground. I miss those lazy days on the porch with my cousins and nieces.

    Merry Christmas to all!

    -Chris
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    edited December 2012
    with Mitsubishi. They're the only manufacturer that makes any long-term sense to me. They build a great engine and a great powertrain and the best compact offering out there, the Mitsubishi Lancer GT.

    True, the Galant is gone. But I'm not in the market for a new car and Mitsu offers the Outlander Sport and Lancer and their new 2014 Outlander is an awesome SUV with AWD as standard equipment.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • puppybone69puppybone69 Member Posts: 24
    OK, so it took two more weeks, instead of just one more. My new Ford Fusion finally arrived at the dealer today, and I'm picking it up tomorrow! WOOHOO!
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    I learned this lesson too late. Majority of my driving is on Rural highway of 55 MPH. My 2010 FFH does OK, gets in EPA and during summer exceeds it. My 2013 however cant even get over 38 highway, no matter what the temps are. I drove it down to Florida where the temps were in the upper 70's, and it did not do anywhere near 47 MPG.

    For the kind of MPG I am getting in the 2013 FFH, I could have saved 10K and bought a Focus.

    For those of you who dont live in a City, and are eyeballing this car, Do not buy the Fusion Hybrid! You will be better off getting the Titanium for less money. :lemon: :lemon: :lemon: :lemon:
  • Since Mitsubishi has no current offering in a mid size sedan. we have not been talking about the companies offerings as of late. More than a few magazines have been questioning their commitment in the US market.

    They have the Lancer and the Outlander, both of which are not doing well. The companies finances are in question; and thus I would not feel comfortable at all with purchasing an automobile from them at this time.

    I can't even bear to talk about the Kia Sephia (shuddering). Uggghh.
  • So, you tend to stay with underdogs. Good for you. I suspect that Mitsu may also leave the US market, but like Suzuki, remains big enough to survive as an auto company worldwide. At this time, their products offered here are passable, but just barely competitive. Sales confirm that. BTW, the Lancer GT is not the best compact offering out there. Numerous comparison tests confirm that. Meanwhile, this is a midsize sedans thread. Mitsu doesn't even have an offering here.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Got a Kia Optima for a rental in Seattle earlier this week. Looks nice on the outside but was not impressed on the inside. The seats were really hard and not comfortable on a 1 hour drive (front and rear). Did not care for the red/orange lighting but that's just personal preference. The steering wheel controls are a mix of recessed buttons and raised rocker switches - did not like the rocker switches. The plastic around the center stack was really hard and cheap.

    On the good side, the drivetrain was pretty solid with good power and the tranny shifted well. Steering feel was good and the wipers worked well (it rained every day).

    I used a Hertz gold choice to select the Optima - the other choices were Camrys and Malibus. Lots and lots of Malibus. Given the choice I'd take the Optima again. Not a bad car for the money.
  • Which Optima trim was it, and what year? I am gonna guess LX or EX. They changed the seat cushions completely for 2012 models....but I have an EX and all I have driven other than that is the turbo SX.

    Thanks for the frank answers. I can tell you that I wear the toggle out for the stereo. Also, the FM reception sounds like AM (it's horrible). I immediately installed a Infinity powered sub with a volume knob installed near the fuse kick panel. Sounds great from thumb drive. FM still sounds like S***. Malibu's and Altima's proliferate the rental car market in many areas. Nissan sold 302,000 Altima's here last year. I don't know about the Malibu's sales. I will never buy GM again.
  • I am sorry. Mazda went through all the effort to make the CX-5 a "drivers crossover", then blessed it with only 155HP???? It is a big car!!! WTF?
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    edited December 2012
    No it is not a big car, it is a compact CUV and weighs about the same as my 2007 Mazda6 and only has one less hp. Nobdody was accusing the Madza6 of being a Porsche but nobody called it underpowered either. Mazda has fixed this problem by putting the 2.5L into the 2014 CX-5 which has 20+ more hp. Every single review I have read on the CX-5 has concluded that it is a "drivers crossover", just not with breakaway, off the line speed. It will get out of it's own way if pushed hard. I've test driven them myself and I was impressed at the ride and cornering ability. Steering was better than my 2013 RDX but I agree that more power would have been nice but certainly not necessary. Show me another CUV in that class that averages 28mpg and gets 26mpg in the city. Those high MPGs don't come free.

    From what I read they are being sold about as fast as the dealers get them and they have been out for about 11 months now. That's demand that many competitors would like to have.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    There were no markings on the rear - just Optima and GDI. It only had 8K miles so not sure about the year. The stereo wasn't that great now that you mention it. We kept it turned down for the most part for conversation purposes.
  • If it had rims, fogs, and dual exhaust w/no markings but GDI on the trunck it is an LX. The LX has smaller 16" alloys, No dual zone A/C,No leather, no wood trim, no manual mode for the trans, no HID's. MSRP $19,900.

    The EX has 17" rims, dual zone A/C, sport-shift trans mode, leather seats, Black Zebrano wood trim, soft touch dash, rubber trunk liner and floor mat set + carpeted summer mats, etc. MSRP $24,250

    Basically some of the little touches that make it a little more desirable...and the 17" rubber is nice.
  • Pos Model
    1 Ford Focus
    2 Hyundai Elantra
    3 Toyota Corolla
    4 VW Jetta
    5 VW Passat
    6 Ford F-Series
    7 VW Golf
    8 Chevrolet Cruze
    9 VW Polo/Vento
    10 Ford Fiesta

    VW and Ford are doing very well. However, the only mid-size in the top ten is the Passat.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    There was no dual zone A/C - it was manual control only but it did have manual shift mode for the tranny although I didn't use it. No leather or wood trim. No HIDs.
  • ajr1775ajr1775 Member Posts: 33
    I'll be picking up my Passat SE tomorrow night. From an all-around perspective I just can't find a reason not to buy one. That coupled with the sign and drive and the $1,250.00 incentive currently being offered makes it the best lease deal on the US market right now. I also happen to truly like the car so that helps :)
  • please let us know how it goes w/ the Passat. Are you getting the one with the 170 hp I-5? It won a few mid size sedan comparo's just a few months ago.

    It's a solid car that's hard to beat and I heard it is very roomy.
  • cannon3cannon3 Member Posts: 296
    edited December 2012
    curious to see how Camry sales are going to be over the next few months. With the bad news on crash data I will be interested if consumers even care about crash tests. My prediction is the Honda Accord will move to number 1, the Fusion will be 2, Camry 3, Altima 4, Malbu 5
  • I don't think there is any way that the Fusion can overtake the Camry that quickly.
  • ajr1775ajr1775 Member Posts: 33
    edited January 2013
    The car is as advertised. Picked it up last night, 2013 Passat SE in Black with Black V-tex interior. Sale price of $24,500.00 including the destination charge. VW had a $1,250.00 lease incentive and that helps to get the lease rate down. Sign and Drive, they make the first months payment. So, my only out of pocket is the tag which I have yet to pay, they'll call me when it's ready and I'll pay then. Monthly payment is $289.00, their first offer was $308.00 per month and of course you never take the first offer. I probably could of nagged a bit more but we were just trying to get the F out of there on New Year's Eve and we had two little ones in tow.

    So, no cons to report. What I like about it:
    1. Styling is descent; no too eccentric, it's just right for me.
    2. Interior is good. The hard plastic surfaces that are there are not as much of an eye soar as they use to be on older VW models. Lots of space on the inside, I hate tight interiors. The V-tex is surprising, they did a very good job with it. Seats are just right, not too cushy and not too hard. The touch screen controls are easy to use. Bluetooth to my Iphone works well, sound quality is good. Cabin insulation is the best I've experienced in a car for this price. Trunk is good; they did a good job on dressing the hinges and the indoor trunk handle for closing the trunk is a novel idea.
    3. Ride is great. I don't like touchy brakes and jiggly suspensions. The Passat is just right, good "feedback". You know what your car is doing without being jarred about or being too dampened.
    4. Best engine so far on a Passat. I drove a 2004 for some time. The engine is pretty quiet. Acceleration is sufficient. Some people complained of a delay on the acceleration, I have no idea what they're referring to. Braking is good, not too touchy. Breaking distance is not the best according to reviews but I can't comment on that, felt OK to me.
    5. Driver's view is excellent. I really like view out of the front and side windows.

    So, no cons I can think of. I'll report back later with any I may find. Also, for relevance sake, I test drove a Fusion, Optima, Accord, and Hyundai. Happy hunting folks and I hope you find what you're looking for out there.

    My final thought, great value and then some.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,382
    sounds like a good deal. I just described it to my son. He is graduating college in May, and if things go according to plan, he gets a real job and will need a newer/reliable car. Given the lack of bank account, most likely we will be looking at something like this to get him up and running. 3 years of cheap payments as he gets established, and saves money for his "dream" car.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • ajr1775ajr1775 Member Posts: 33
    That rate I got was based on 12K miles per year. I also looked at Jetta SEL and on a sale price to lease rate ratio the Passat lease rate is actually better. Not to mention it's about 15% less to insure the Passat over the Jetta.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Why does a college senior not have a bank account already? Just curious. Mine got a bank account when he was 16 (and working) and had a credit card 2 years later.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,382
    he has a bank account. There just won't be much in it when he finishes helping to cover costs of school. Certainly not enough to put a lot down on a car right after he graduates! He also has his own credit card, though with a modest credit limit at this point.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I thought "lack of bank account" meant he didn't have one and didn't have any credit. I guess you really meant "lack of cash" which is redundant with "college student".
  • Is this the V6 or the I-5? First of all congrats. I know it's a nice car.

    The 170 HP I-5 is being phased out in favor of the I-4 1.8T coming out in about 6 mos. Don't get upset. It's a great engine. It has to go in favor of smaller, boosted engines that get killer fuel economy at cruising speeds. Also, even my KIA has 200 HP out of a 2.4, so the 5cyl is 30HP down.

    Volvo has also ditched the I-5 it has used for over 20 years, but since Volvo was purchased by China's Geely motors. So, there may be a day when Volvo is no longer Swedish as well.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    edited January 2013
    I wondered that too, as I have not checked the Passat yet for my car replacement. I thought I was going to go subcompact and still may, in search of lower mpg, but it is getting that even mid-sized cars are getting mpg figures sometimes exceeding the subs... (or at least real-world figures).

    But if VW is going to build a new 1.8T, I think that is a mistake to keep it as 1.8. The last 1.8T has a terrible reputation for being an oil burner and not really a very good engine for longevity, nor fuel economy either FTM. Plus it required premium gas, which is a huge financial hit if/or converted to mpg per $ spent.

    I have driven the 2.5 and while I know it has a bit of a reputation for not being as fuel efficient as its competition and still uses a cast-iron block (not that there is anything wrong with that, other than weight and the need to factor weight bias/balance/handling a little more diligently..in fact cast iron still makes one of the sturdiest platforms for engine rigidity rendering longevity) and also does not use direct injection (one of the more significant measures taken for Kia to get that 200 hp out of a 2.4 I4) but the 2.5 feels more balanced and smooth than an I4. To my seat of the pants, it feels (and sounds) more like a 6 than a 4. And there is an old saying that there is no replacement for displacement, and while on a technical basis displacement = displacement be it through bore size or stroke, the way you get that displacement, can be felt seat-of-the-pants in real world driving, and the torque produced, be it from increasing stroke (tending to increase vibration) or adding cylinders (smoother) seems to be a more accessible torque with lighter throttle applications. What I am trying to say, is that that 2.5 felt stronger than my 2.4 I4 even though they both put out the same torque (and hp) at basically the same revs. And of course I mean stronger by more than just 100 cc.

    I wanted to comment also on gas direct injection tech that seems to be all the rage lately. Sure it can give more hp and torque and (potential) fuel economy, but at what ultimate price? By this, I mean that when it comes time to replace the extra high PSI fuel pump and filter assemblies, and pricier injectors, you can be certain they are a lot more expensive than traditional pump/injector technology. This cost can quickly offset any potential fuel savings. The other variable too, is that while these direct injection systems can offer up pretty impressive mpg for gentle driving, they can also use a lot more gas if you are heavy-footed, which could further negate any actually $ savings over life of ownership. That said tho, owners who replace their car every less-than 100k probably won't be the ones flipping the bill for a new fuel pump, but might still feel the sting of injector replacements.

    I will be checking into the Passat with this 2.5 although a VW dealer is one of the ones that I am not close to. I would like to not assume that the 2.5 in the Golf gets better real-world mpg than the Passat. An example of this is the TDI version of both. Probably through a combination of gearing and wind drag, but I suspect the Passat is extra slippery through the air, because people are getting better highway mpg with their stick TDI Passat, than TDI stick Golf owners, which is a lot lighter and has a smaller frontal profile to cut through that wind.

    Your lease sounded great, but that depended on how many months was the commitment?

    You guys who have college kids that will soon be in a position to lease a car like a Passat, blows my mind. How times have changed over the decades..
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    DI engines don't use any more fuel under heavy throttle than non-DI engines. And fuel pumps and injectors should easily last 150K miles.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    edited January 2013
    Can't say that I can agree with you on this. Don't care to debate it, but derive my opinion from the facts (known to me as my understanding of them thus far) that...regarding the ability to direct fuel right into the combustion chamber, can have many perks, most due to that system's ability to utilize a more precise time factor of all operations. Being able to more precisely time (and size) the combustion gives great control, but also gives the potential for greater hp and torque. And because we (as Americans) have always been enticed that more is better, these DI systems put that capability in our hands. The fuel economy potential is there, if we proactively exercise discipline on the loud pedal. Sorta like the best of both worlds, but to get one, you must drive with proactive intent on the other..otherwise pay for the fun of the occasional spurt.

    Another example I could use is a turbo vs NA. A turbo can save you mpg if driven accordingly. But it can also give you the urge of a much larger displacement, at the expense of fuel economy. Just ask any owner of your average turbo'd car (let's say any Ecoboost ª, car, SUV or pickup) if it can suck fuel at a big rate if you are heavy footed, and I think you will find universal agreement that they can be quite thirsty if always pushed.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Of course if you use more throttle you'll use more fuel but that's not because of the DI which is what you were implying.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    No, actually was I was trying to communicate was that the potential to use more fuel is greater at the SAME throttle position, assuming engine management interpreted your request for more urge in that immediate point in time. If you disagree, that's your prerogative and I am ok with that.
    But just to be clearer hopefully..you do realize that increased hp and torque from the same displacement (bore and stroke and increased air flow) is not an entirely free ride right? The closest you can come actually to that scenario is through the use of a turbo.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    If you put the same amount of air into an engine it uses the same amount of fuel regardless of how that fuel is delivered. DI makes it more efficient so you get more power from the same amount of air and fuel. Just like advancing the timing.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited January 2013
    The 15% lower rates on the Passat are due to a more experienced, older driver/owner average.

    For example, a friend of mine purchased one when he was 19, and had personalized plates on his red 1994 GLS Trek. They read DANSJET He was pulled over late at night 2 weeks after purchase. The cop came to the window and said

    "Mr Jet, license and registration " He never lived that down. LOL.

    (this was 17 yrs ago and he moved out of state)
  • podpod Member Posts: 176
    How the air/fuel mixture is regulated in newer cars with turbos or even NA cars with variable valve timing is unclear to me. That more "air" is deliverd to the cylinder in both cases is clear enough, how does the fuel rail know how to adjust the bolus of fuel to achieve a constant A/F mixture (which is usually about 15 parts air/1 part fuel). I don't understand how the fuel delivery system (whether direct injection or regular fuel injection) knows how much air (oxygen) has been delivered for combustion. What is the method of determining the amount of air delivered (is the Mass Air Sensor that sensitive?) and once the computer knows the amount of air how does it regulate the fuel delivery to match (is there a variable pressure delivery system that follows the computers info on mass air delivery?).
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The mass airflow sensor determines the amount of air entering the engine whether it's naturally aspirated or forced induction. This tells the PCM how much fuel to add to maintain a 14.7:1 stoichiometric air fuel ratio. A higher ratio is a lean condition (not enough fuel) and a lower ratio is a rich condition (too much fuel). This is detected by the O2 sensors in the exhaust and the PCM adjusts the fuel accordingly. The PCM may also adjust the A/F ratio slightly for special conditions. This is why you get a CEL if the MAF or O2 sensors are not working properly.

    This is also why a dirty air filter doesn't affect fuel economy - just power. The PCM adjusts the fuel to match the lower airflow.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    Camry 31,407
    Accord 29,428
    Altima 23,966
    Sonata 20,826
    Fusion 19,283
    Passat 14,462
    Optima 12,008
    Malibu 11,630
    200 9,080

    It's ironic that the Camry is arguably one of the weakest cars in this group, and yet still has the best sales. A real race between Accord and Camry is shaping up for 2013, esp. since the Camry got a "Poor" rating compared to Accord's "Good" in the small offset crash test by IIHS.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    Toyota Camry 404,886
    Honda Accord 331,872
    Nissan Altima 302,934
    Hyundai Sonata 230,605
    Ford Fusion 241,263
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited January 2013
    Camry c. 400k
    Accord c. 375k
    Altima c. 325k
    Fusion c. 300k
    Sonata c. 275k
    Passat c. 175k
    Optima c. 150k
    Malibu c. 125k

    Total guess, but maybe the Fusion will pass the Sonata? Ford certainly hopes so. And although the Camry will falter, I don't think the Accord will quite catch up. But I could be wrong.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Interesting... Hyundai/Kia led mid-sized car sales in December. Of course, it's with two cars. But the Optima outselling the Malibu is a shocker... not based on car quality, but on sheer volume of Chevy dealers vs. Kia dealers. Maybe the general public agrees with consensus opinion on the Malibu: not a very good car.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    thanks to TSX69 at temple of vtec (www.vtec.net) for these;

    Camry 404,886 +31.2%
    Accord 331,872 +40.8%
    Altima 302,934 +12.6%
    Fusion 241,263 -2.7%
    Sonata 230,605
    Malibu 210,951 +3%
    Optima 152,399
    200 125,476 +44%
    Passat 117,023 +413.7%
    Avenger 96,890 +51%
    Legacy 47,127 +11.2%
    6 33,756 -5.5%
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
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