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My hope - if my 3 year old, problem-riddled Focus doesn't completely implode in the meantime - is that Mazda will rejigger the options packaging on the trims when the diesel 6 arrives (not that I need an oil burner, but I would certainly consider one if they do hook it up to a manual transmission).
Mazda is making a mistake if they throw roadblocks in front of drivers demanding manuals. They could own that market with this car if they wanted to. Is it huge? Probably not. But a few thousand extra units out the door certainly seems possible. Why continue to cede the sub-40 segment to VW?
The same goes for any major manufacturer willing to put a midsize wagon on the road. Everyone fears cannibalizing their high-margin crossover sales w/wagons, but there is a market out there for them (before Subaru made its Outback uber ugly, I saw quite a few of them puttering about).
I ended up buying a Chevy HHR LT with a manual instead [and spent what seemed like half of the next two years of my life driving around in Chevrolet Malibu service loaners]. My God, have I made some car buying mistakes in my life...
yes, but the new car is significantly bigger and safer...which contributes to its 3300lbs; about 800 pounds more than the 88 accord.
Image the 88 accord with 98hp and 4) 200 lb people in it
Over the last 13 years I've owned one new Ford (a 2000 Focus ZTS 5 MT), one new Mazda (a 2010 Mazda5 5MT), and two new Hondas (a 2002 Accord LX 5 MT and a 2008 Accord EXL Navi 5 MT). They were all good cars from a performance perspective, and even in term of the "shift feel" of the manuals. I slightly prefer the Honda manuals, and generally reading reviews you'll find that most reviewers agree. Mazda is a close second or maybe equal. When you drive the new Accord manual I think you'll find what I think of as an almost "jewel-like precision" to the manual.
For acceleration 0-60 with the manual the Accord seems to have a real advantage. Here are the times I've found with the site 0-60:
2014 Mazda6 Sport 6MT: 7.3
http://www.zeroto60times.com/Mazda-0-60-mph-Times.html
2013 Ford Fusion 1.6 0-60: 7.9
http://www.zeroto60times.com/Ford-0-60-mph-Times.html
2013 Honda Accord Sport 6 MT 0-60: 6.7!
http://www.zeroto60times.com/Honda-Vtech-0-60-mph-Times.html
In other words, the 2013 Accord with the manual beats some of the competition by about a second. That's huge in my book, and about as fast as most 6 cylinders of just a few years ago.
In terms of reliability my Hondas were equal to the Mazda—very reliable high-quality vehicles.
My 2000 Ford Focus was a nightmare with literally two dozen recalls, including one for possible engine fire. I know Ford has improved, but the recalls and problems with the new Fusion (including a recall for engine fire) seem to show that Ford still has some work to do.
Of the cars you're considering, the Honda is made right here in the USA at their factory in Ohio. They've recently released a factory tour video that shows step by step how your Accord is made:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBluTaWjPIU
I've owned two Accords built at this factory, and am now in negotiations to try to get a third. Those Marysville Honda Associates do very good work imho.
The Fusion is made in Mexico for now. Nothing against our good neighbors down south, but I personally prefer made in USA by relatively high wage workers.
The Mazda is made in Japan. The yen has been quite high until recently, and that has hurt Mazda. I think they've had to cut costs by cheapening some things in their vehicles. Probably the Mazda6 has not been affected by this, since it's a new signature model to get them back in the game, but my 2010 Mazda5 does seem cheap in some areas (like dashboard plastics and standard tires) that I don't find on my Hondas.
My experience with the Mazda, in other words, good though it's been, has convinced me to go back to Honda.
Just my 2 cents. Hope you'll let us know how it goes and what you decide.
The 2013 Accord seems significantly quieter than my 2008 EXL. The road noise, one of Hondas weak points for many years, has finally been addressed. The fit and finish was impressive, and all that I'd been expecting from the good reviews.
Even though on the test drive I went on the Interstate and some winding two lane roads, I can't say for sure if the handling and steering were better or worse than the 2008 Accord (which has hydraulic steering and double wishbone front suspension).
I would say for now it was just as good, if not better, but different in feel.
Trying to negotiate now for a 2013 EXL navi in red. It's a very rare model, and so not sure how it will go. I'm not in a place where I have to buy a car, and so if we need to wait until summer for it to work we can do that....
You are missing the point. What was the 0-60 time of that 1988 Accord, even with the LX-i's fuel injected engine? Nowhere close to 5.6 secs, no matter how light it was. Yet people loved that car, and managed just fine.
My wife's 2007 Sonata had "only" 162 hp and a 4-speed slushbox. Yet it was more than quick enough to move out when needed. Her new 2013 has 198 hp, but the car is about the same weight as the 2007. And of course the Sonata can be had with over 270 horses.
Do people buy these mid-sized sedans to take them drag racing on weekends, or schlep from home to work to the mall? I think mostly the latter. Not sure how all that power helps there.
I kind of wonder why manufacturers even bother with them. The percentage of automatic drivers who actively use them has to be smaller than the number of folks driving regular manuals. My parents, for instance, weren't even aware their new Volvo XC70 had a "Geartronic" shiftable auto until I pointed it out to them - 9 months after they brought the car home. They still don't use it (and I suspect they're probably glad they don't have to).
If I was forced to drive a slushbox, I wouldn't be in hunting in this segment anyway. There's a Chrysler dealer a block from my house and I'm forced to drive past a row of shiny new Chargers every day I leave home. To each his own, but that's the most attractive vehicle on the road today IMHO (even beats the new 6). And with Chrysler's never-ending rebateathon, a brand new HEMI model (with my requisite sunroof) can often be had for under $27K.
Like overweight ladies, I really wish I loved automatic transmissions. Life would be so much easier - there's certainly no shortage of them.
The Optima Turbo does not have a real dual-clutch automated manual either. It is the exact same 6 speed auto that is in the EX 2.4, with flappy paddles added on.
You use the term "slushbox" a lot, and it reminds me of the days of the "turbo-hydromatic" 3-60E GM 3 speed automatic. Today's 6-speed auto units are far more advanced, and extremely durable.
MSRP 27k (or so); sell price 23.5k (clearance)
residual 15077 (for 12000 miles per year)
money factor 0.00001 (yes, that is very low)
Dealer offer: 35 payments of $262 (includes 6.5% sales tax) with absolutely zero o-t-d
This weekend (additional $500 from TFS): payment reduced to 249
Rationale for why i passed:
1. after driving a few cars with the rear camera, i am hooked
2. fear of having to replace the 18 inch tires before/at the end of the lease
Back to the Accord forum...
IT'S A CAMRY!!! :P
Although it's a good lease price compared to something like a 2013 Accord LX (which is going for $289/mo with 0 out of pocket in my town), there's comparable lease deals on better, newer cars e.g. Passat SE, Sonata GLS w/PEP, and Optima LX. Add an aftermarket nav system for $100 and drive happy w/o the pitfalls of the 18" wheels. No moonroof, but payment will be less than $249 also. You might find a Sonata Limited or Optima EX for around $250/mo--I haven't shopped those trim levels.
BTW, the lease deals on the Accord are 255 LX, 284 EX with first and fees down here in OH. Still no cash incentives from honda and the Sport model of the Accord is the prime seller. Time is still on my side for a little while...
I loved the 88 accord too.
My point was it was 800 lbs lighter (2500 lbs). So in the 'olden' days 98hp adequate.
You 'need' more now with heavier vehicles; more hp, more gears etc. 98hp in the current Accord would be like adding 800lbs in the 88 Accord...a show stopper.
"Need" is very subjective when automobiles are involved; I too have been guilty of "need"...But recently I explicitly looked for a 4cyl in my current vehicle...bypassing the V6. After many years stuck in traffic in 300+hp cars I figured what's the point
Automatics, on the other hand, are a form of torture (in my opinion - we can agree to disagree). And the more speeds they have, the worse the torture (I actually prefer CVTs to traditional planetary gearset transmissions when it comes to modern automatics). It seems like whenever I'm in a rental, the thing's never in the right gear in traffic. Modern automatics upshift way too early (indeed I understand it saves fuel) and when you turn a corner and hit the gas, there's always that moment of pause (during which I admittedly have a tendency to punch the accelerator ) before it kicks down a couple of gears and rockets forward. Annoying.
I've had salespeople tell me that transmission electronics can predict my behavior. I kindly disagree. And then invariably they tell me their transmission can predict my behavior. Whatever.
I just like manuals and the days of manuals are going away. I've got plenty of years ahead of me to drive automatics. Eventually, we'll all be forced to. I just want to enjoy that extra control behind the wheel while I still can.
Heck, a 1982 Accord LX took almost 13 secs 0-60mph. Don't think that would go over too well today.
Today my 2008 Honda Accord 4 cylinder 5 MT is considered somewhat slow, but it gets to 60 in somewhere around 8.5 seconds.
Who is it who considers your 2008 Accord "somewhat slow"? You? Or the guys at C/D who drag race their V6 Accords, using launching techniques that are clearly "do not attempt this at home"?
When I was getting my transmission rebuilt (actual rebuilder since it was a special model GM car), it turns out that this guy also was the best rebuilder in the country for Hondas and where all of the dealerships in Southern California were sending their work to.
Long story short. In Japan, the Odyssey is sold with a 4 cylinder engine only. When they brought it to the U.S., they put a V6 in it, but they didn't re-design the transmission since it was within spec.
But add fat Americans (relative to Japanese people), heavy loads, quick starts and MUCH faster driving than in Japan and the clutch packs simply burn themselves out due to not being able to handle the extra torque and weight. Evidently according to him, this affects almost all 6 cylinder cars from Honda as it's a major cost to design a brand new transmission for a V6 which only gets sold in the U.S. The Odyssey is a definite "don't even consider buying it" according to him. As in sell it before it fails again.
The CVT, he's not a fan of.(well, he makes good money off of them... just saying...) Shocker. New untested technology. Who would have guessed?
The skinny on Honda? Manual or 4 cylinder only.
I remember borrowing an 89 Civic Si from a relative to drive some friends...everyone was amazed at how fast it was; 0-60 in mid 8's
btw...very fun to drive
It handled like it was on rails. My 6'2" frame fit great in the Integra, but not in my brother-in-laws 94 Civic EX. Funny, since the the 94 Integra IS a Civic.
I have a friend who didn't have their mirrors adjusted correctly but they were so stubborn they just wouldn't believe they "weren't doing it right". I stood outside their car about where a car on the left would be passing and stood where the drivers side bumper would be approximately just as it would disappear from the rear view mirror. I told them to look in their side mirror and they couldn't see a thing but the side of their car. Had him adjust the mirror out, and out, and out some more until they could see me standing there. I told him that is where your mirror should be adjusted. His response, "well I can't see the side of my car now". I said why the hell do you want to see the side of YOUR car, do you have some sort of fetish or something? You want to see lane next to you. Same goes for the other side of the car. He is finally a convert.
2012 Optima EX MSRP: 24,260.
Negotiated $21,860, plus $1000 to extend basic powertrain 100k warranty to 100k bumper to bumper.
SO $22,860 with leather, zebrano wood, and all the goodies except heated seats, power pass seat, and Navi. Added $100 Garmin from Best Buy.
-Dealer included all weather floor mats on top of the carpeted ones already included
-Rubber/plastic trunk tray
Bumper "applique"
Added Lojack $500.
Dealer paperwork/ doc-prep $250.
So,
21,860
1000
100
500
250
_____________
$ 23,710
zero down or trade (sold my Jeep outright)
60 mos X 4.5% financing and 4.5% tax = $2110 + 23710 = $25,820 Total of Payments
monthly payment = $432 mo.
The VA tax was $1055. My rate of 4.5% and the tax rate of also 4.5% was a coincidence.
Also, most of the minivans and SUVs are 500-1000lbs heavier than a typical sedan. The fact remains that Honda transmissions fail a lot more than their competition if you have a vehicle with a V6 in it.
IME, though, Honda manuals are almost video game easy to drive and the performance of an Accord or similar with a manual and a 4 cylinder engine is the same as with a V6 and automatic in actual driving around town. Loads less to break and less money spent.
I realize that Honda and Acura if I recall had some problems with transmissions in the early 2000s from like 2011-2003 but haven't had any major issue since then so this may be an old problem that you are "warning" people about.
http://www.caranddriver.com/photos-12q4/488202/2013-lincoln-mkz-awd-photo-490182- -
Here is a link to C/D first drive. I love it. Make mine black and it looks like a modern bat-mobile.
Also, read the full review of the 2014 Mazda6. I like it. It looks great in red and the instrument cluster is very BMW looking. Also, the side view reminds me of the Monte-Carlo's of '75-'85...in a good way.
Car testers of various publications do not like CVT transmissions.
I own a 2001 Odyssey and have had to replace the transmission 3 times already.
Have a 2000 Ody with 87K miles. Transmission has been perfect, no problems. Never drive abusively, though I have helped some folks do moving, loading up the Ody with furniture, cabinets, dressers, etc. Never have towed anything with it.
In my and wife sample of 6 V6 equipped Hondas and Acuras, still have 3 (Acuras, Ody), the auto transmissions have been perfect. In over half million miles of driving.
An 86 Accord (4 cyl of course) we had, the auto transmission did fail at 217K miles and needed a rebuilt replacement from Honda. I think 217K failure was acceptable back in the 1990's.
I think the new CVT will be long lasting too, but it's true that it's a new design and so it's something of an unknown. I read somewhere that Honda put huge R & D into the composite material belt of their new CVT to make it last longer. In other words, it's designed to take it and last.
Honda manuals are the best in the biz. Better than BMW many say....
Honda Accord, Civic & Odyssey Transmission Failure
Widespread Transmission Problems Leave Honda Owners Up in Arms
Transmission failure with the Honda Accord, Civic and Odyssey is a widespread problem in models made from 1999-2004. The 2003 Honda Accord, 2001 Honda Civic and 2002 Honda Odyssey appear to be the worst years for transmission failure.
This is an issue with automatic transmissions and owners are reporting an average repair cost of $2,291. More than half the reported problems are happening under 90k miles, with 1 in 5 breaking down before the odometer hits 70k.
What Causes This Transmission Problem
If your engine will rev up, but the car won't shift into gear or move it could be a defective torque converter. In fact, the majority of Honda owners with transmission problems are saying the torque converter is failing and essentially burning up the transmission fluid, rendering the entire transmission useless.
What is Honda Doing to Fix the Problem?
Honda has offered some owners out-of-warranty compensation for the transmission repairs. Rather than going through your local dealership, it's best to contact Honda Customer Service at (800) 999-1009 and ask for a "goodwill repair". If you can provide proof that you followed Honda's recommended maintenance schedule, Honda may offer to pay a portion of the repair bill -- typically 50%, although some 2003 vehicle owners have reported having up to 75% covered.
Watch out for Honda dealerships' abnormally high repair bill though. As one owner put it, "Honda has offered to cover half the repair cost. The problem is they want $5,000 to fix it. Are they nuts???" An independent repair shop will generally do the same replacement for $2,500 or less. Just make sure you get a comparable warranty on parts because the rebuilt replacement transmissions can fail just as quickly, if not sooner.
2004 Honda Transmission Recall
In 2004, Honda finally admitted to the problem with their 600,000 vehicle recall. Honda decided to recall the transmissions, at an estimated cost of $153 million to the company, after finding “10 transmission failures” according to Honda spokesman Chuck Schifsky. We're not sure where Mr. Schifsky is getting his information, because we've seen hundreds and hundreds of owner complaints. Honda later expanded the recall to include nearly 1.1 million vehicles.
The models covered were the 2002-4 Odyssey; the 2003–4 Pilot; the 2001–2 Acura MDX; the 2003–4 Accord V-6; the 2000–4 Acura 3.2 TL and the 2001–3 Acura 3.2 CL.
Unfortunately Honda's transmission repairs, especially for those engines that had less than 15k miles before the recall, were not guaranteed to keep working. According to the Wheels blog on NYtimes.com:
In a complaint filed with the Center for Auto Safety, Jeremy Berens of Vienna, Va., said his 2003 Accord was recalled when it had fewer than 15,000 miles on the odometer. But it failed in December, with the mileage at about 67,000, as he tried to merge onto a busy highway.
“I was nearly rear-ended and had no warning,” he wrote in his complaint. “Honda has not properly fixed the recall that occurred in 2004 and are failing to recognize that a problem exists.”
He said Honda agreed to pay 40 percent of the repair after the district manager interceded on his behalf, but it still cost him $2,750.
2006 Honda Transmission Class Action Settlement
In 2006 a class-action lawsuit was settled against Honda in the Superior Court of California for Alameda County. The suit claimed that Honda misled consumers by selling them vehicles with defective transmissions. Honda settled the case without ever admitting a defect and denied the charges.
Owners covered in the lawsuit were given an extension of the transmission warranty to 93 months or 109,000 miles (whichever comes first), starting when the vehicle is first purchased or leased. According to court records, the plaintiff’s lawyers received nearly $5.5 million in addition to expenses, according to court records.
The models covered were the 2000–1 Accord; 1999–2001 Odyssey; 2000–1 Prelude; 1999–2 Acura 3.2 TL and 2001–2 Acura 3.2 CL. The problem is most of those vehicles are well past the 93-month time limit and some owners are unhappy because they're left to cover the bill when their transmissions fail outside the warranty extension, with repairs sometimes costing up to $4,000.
The Audi designer/engineer that Kia hired away (Peter Schreyer) knows his stuff. A better set of tires would make a big difference in handling. I am looking forward to a Set of Pirelli's at 30k.
And yes, the Optima is a very nice car. It has a lot of style, quality, value, and performance for the money. And made in USA+++
Like you I like Peter S's work, but at least we agree he should fix those blind spots for the next gen.
Honda Cvt Gearbox Problems:
Drive Belt Slip
The CVT gearbox drive-belt slippage problem mentioned by the website Honda Problems occurs during acceleration. The problem affects the automatic transmission, causing the car to shudder and hesitate when accelerating. The CVT gearbox may also affect acceleration, causing speed reduction when the engine is about to make maximum revolutions per minute.
Noise
CVT gearbox noise related to clutch slip during acceleration is mentioned by TRNW.com. The noise is generated via the pulley and belt system that supports the gear ratio change-through. Adjusting the belt back to position corrects the problem.
Fluid Leak
The CVT gearbox automatic transmission ATF fluid leaks mentioned by Honda Problems cause low ATF level and require top off. A dealer should check a CVT gearbox to make adjustments as recommended in the manufacturer's car owner's manual
That info you posted comes from a 2005 Civic complaint. is it relevant to the 2013 Accord?
It tells me that honda has a history of transmission problems and perhaps buying a first year transmission from honda would not be a wise thing for me to do.