Midsize Sedans 2.0

[Deleted User] · October 2013

No sweat then. I know I might come across as a know-it-all sometimes, but in reality I just love cars, and could talk about them 24/7.

Anyway, thanks Backy. I would like nothing more than to get along with you and everyone else here.

[Deleted User] · October 2013

...and the ILX is lightweight, so with the 2.4, 200 hp engine it should be very satisfying while still getting good F/E. I am very happy with my 2.4 liter, which also coincidentally has 200 hp.

I tell you. the Elantra Limited is a very nice looking car to me. It makes it hard to choose with all the competing players available. You can go up to large sedan for not much more than a loaded mid-size, or you can get a fully loaded compact for the price of a lower end mid-size, and get the heated seats, GPS, and sunroof that you may not be able to afford in a mid size.

That was the conundrum I was in when I chose the Optima EX. I already had a Garmin GPS, and could live w/o the sunroof. I do wish I had my heated seats from my Grand Cherokee for winter, but it rarely gets mega-cold here in Virginia for very long.

Choosing reminds me of the Goldilocks and the three bears nursery rhyme, not too small, not too big, but just right in a mid-size.

ab348 · October 2013

The Elantra Limited, for all its bells and whistles, is still an Elantra and hence a cheap compact that has issues in ride and refinement. Don't fall for all the icing, buy the quality cake instead.

crkyolfrt · October 2013

If you want to open this up to possible competitors to mid-sized family sedans, there's a LOT of those. There's compact cars that have mid-sized interiors, like the Elantra, Forte, and Jetta. There's small SUVs at about the same price as a mid-sized sedan, but more cargo room. There's mid-sized near-luxury cars that start at a price where the high-trim family cars top out--so some overlap on price. There's large family cars like the Taurus, Impala, and Azera that also overlap the mid-sized cars on price.

I don't think this paragraph helped you make the point you were trying to make much. In fact, it detailed quite nicely why there should be flexible book ends to a Mid-sized forum. You can be darn sure that many a non regular/lurker visits this forum with their thoughts on a number of vehicles that have easily fallen just out of the technical forum classification, but due to a bit of elaboration of (all) car enthusiasts like cski, they left with some very helpful insight.

backy · October 2013

If you look at my number of posts here over the years, you might get the idea I like cars a lot also.

One way to get along with people here, or in any electronic discussion forum, is to not assume motives. People have different writing styles. We can't see each other's faces as we exchange posts. So it's best to check for understanding before assuming something about someone else's motives, intent, thoughts, and feelings.

backy · October 2013

I have an idea: why not start a discussion in Town Hall called "Mid-Sized Sedans and Cross-Shopped Vehicles" and it can be a free-for-all about not only mid-sized sedans but also anything else a buyer interested in a mid-sized sedan might look at?

Over the years I've participated in some broad car discussions here. They are pretty much dead now. Would be interesting to see how a broad discussion on mid-sizers and alternatives to mid-sizers would fare.

crkyolfrt · October 2013

OTOH, typing a smiley face does not necessarily endorse the true nature of a post. It might, but it is far from being written in stone just cuz it's there..

crkyolfrt · October 2013

Over the years I've participated in some broad car discussions here. They are pretty much dead now.

Which ones? And what was the 'real' reason for their demise. Or is it just opinion?

I can't tell you the number of times I stifle a question that I want to ask here because there is a fair number of knowledgeable contributors here, but don't because I know that there are rigids who are prone to getting outta shape about it, because it possibly might fall out of the almighty sacred brackets of Mid-sized sedans.

I can think of the odd time I have asked you a simple question and with more words than it would take to answer it, you invested a post informing me that it isn't the place to ask it, instead directing me like a well behaved puppy to where you would then cater to my simple question. Well of course I'm not a puppy and I don't lead well. So my question went unanswered. Result? Unproductive chat = less potentially useful info being shared.

Anyway..I'll close on this as I'm sure it will be consider too far off topic also. It's a post I keep meaning to suggest in Forum Suggestions but it's a bit hard when there are no exact examples one can point to without sending them on a goose chase. But if it ever came down to a vote, I would vote for more flexible book-ends within a forum.

crkyolfrt · October 2013

I have an idea: why not start a discussion in Town Hall called "Mid-Sized Sedans and Cross-Shopped Vehicles" and it can be a free-for-all about not only mid-sized sedans but also anything else a buyer interested in a mid-sized sedan might look at?

One last point though...this is a GREAT idea, backy! I would wager that in a while it would become competitively popular with this one, and probably pass it, because people could discuss stereo and entertainment, seat comfort/adjustibility, interior sound levels. headlight performance etc etc etc across the range of cars that all would be suitable to a shopper, but knowing full well that 'some' might, by technicality, fall a bit out of the confines of this forum.

[Deleted User] · October 2013

The senior pastor at my church had a 2011 Elantra Limited. He complained about the seats not being comfortable. 6 months after he bought it, I showed up with the Optima.

He drove my car twice, and two weeks later he bought an Optima. It is exactly the same as mine except for the color.

I agree that the Elantra interior appointments are not quite as nice as mid size cars, but compared to other compacts the "Atomic Guppy" had everything they didn't at the end of 2010, like actual style, options like heated seats front AND rear, nice sized GPS, modern DI engine with 6 speed and with over 35 mpg, and all the other goodies we take for granted in our class that was not available on Corolla and Civic at the time.

[Deleted User] · October 2013

I only wanted to touch the fringes of mid-size shoppers. I didn't want to get buck wild and start including every car that has 4 doors.

The Mercedes really is a minor threat to the mid size market. When I bought the Optima it was because I didn't need an SUV anymore because all my kids are over 8 and don't need car seats. I don't even need 5 seats. I think moms and dads may "reward" themselves after the minivan drudgery (especially moms in this cosmopolitan DC market) with a nice new Mercedes that they can afford; and two kids can still fit in the back comfortably. I can see a $299 lease deal already. Enough from me on the d*** Mercedes. I still love my mid size, and in my car I can slide the seat all the way back, and my 5"10" daughter can still sit comfortably behind me.

backy · October 2013

...instead directing me like a well behaved puppy to where you would then cater to my simple question.

It seems you have a chip on your shoulder about something. Just what, I'm not sure. I assure you I do not.

I do like to have a discussion stay on its intended topic. There's no evil intent in that, and I don't think it's an unreasonable attitude. As for the time I may have suggested a different discussion for one of your questions, please keep open the possibility that it was meant to be a helpful suggestion, to let you get a better answer on your question.

Anyway, you nor anyone else is bound to do anything I suggest. It's just one guy's opinion. So if people want to discuss the CLA or any other vehicle here, that's not up to me. But I retain the right to voice my opinion about it.

p.s. I took the "dead" general discussions off my watch list some time ago after years of no posts there. I think one was "low-end cars" and there was another one on compacts, plus some others. And, who knows the "real" reason for their demise? There was no one left there to discuss that point. As I said, it's just one guy's opinion.

explorerx4 · October 2013

Next weekend will be putting 1700/1800 miles on the Fusion. Will be a good test of my new gas tank(range) and I'm thinking of filling up with premium, since prices are under $4 a gallon.
Premium is supposed to provide more power, which I don't need. I'm more interested in any mileage change.

[Deleted User] · October 2013

You guys wont believe this. I have a new neighbor who just bought a unit in my building. She has a 2012 Sonata. Same color as mine, inside and out. Exact same features except she has heated seats and a sunroof.

You can't get a much better side by side comparison picture. Which one would you like to own?

http://i.imgur.com/csGqHw8.jpg

I am ready for all of us to bury the hatchet guys. I want to talk about mid-size sedans because I own one, but I want to also be able to talk about popular new cars that have been released, and new car trends....you know, what is hot and what is not. Cars that are shaking up the market, and what car I ASPIRE to own. Sedans make up the biggest percent of the market in the United States, and that is why this board is so popular. If we only talk about 8 cars though, things get boring fast.

I really think a good way to handle it would be to do it by price range to include mid size and large sedans. "reasonably priced new mainstream sedans".

ab348 · October 2013

The Optima is the better looking car by far. Under the skin they are identical of course, the same formula that led GM on the path to ruin.

backy · October 2013

I'd take the Sonata if only because of the heated seats (which I found out I use a lot more than I thought I would given they're cloth seats) and the moonroof, which my Sonata doesn't have but I would like one (my old Elantra GT has one and I really enjoyed it).

stickguy · October 2013

I think the Optima is a much nicer looking car.

jayrider · October 2013

Premium won't help mpg but keeping a light foot on the pedal will. Top Gear even ran regular in cars that are supposed to need premium and there was almost no difference in mpg or performance that would justify it's use. Long term ? Maybe.

explorerx4 · October 2013

I'm not Top Gear, so results may vary.

crkyolfrt · October 2013

please keep open the possibility that it was meant to be a helpful suggestion, to let you get a better answer on your question.

Fair enough.
:thumb up:

[Deleted User] · October 2013

I get it. You hate Hyundai-Kia.

GM was on the path to ruin because they were making crappy cars, corporate bloat, and too many brands that were not making money like Saturn and Pontiac. Plus, GM was paying giant sums of money in pensions for all the retirees since the Vietnam era.

Platform sharing is at the core of EVERY major automaker. Without it, we would not be able to buy such high quality machines. Fore example, Wider profit margins on the Lexus ES and the RX crossover make it possible to sell Camry's using the same platform for $19,000.

[Deleted User] · October 2013

My Grand Cherokee had both heated seats and a sunroof but both were broken by 100k.

I kind of liked the idea of not even having them on the Optima. The dual sunroof option weighed almost 200 pounds, and it rarely gets cold enough here to really need heated seats. It would be a different story if I lived in the rust belt.

The bottom line was really price. The only cars the dealer had with the Luxury package were all turbos, and I couldn't see spending $27,000 + taxes on a Kia when I have 3 kids to pay for.

The Sonata next to my car is a Limited non-turbo, and it stickered at $27,500 while mine was $24,260, so it would have been $2600 more on the sticker, and Hyundai would not budge on the price much since in late 2011 they were selling like hotcakes. The Optima had much less press at that time, and dealer let me have it for $21,800.

ab348 · October 2013

I hate Hyundai's business practices and the hype their products get from the automotive media.

Platform sharing is fine. But sharing everything down to the engines and suspension tuning is taking it a bit far down the GM path. It is a common problem - see Ford Fusion vs Lincoln MKZ, and Impala vs LaCrosse vs XTS among numerous other examples.

backy · October 2013

My Grand Cherokee had both heated seats and a sunroof but both were broken by 100k.

The moonroof on my 2004 Elantra GT still works great after nearly 10 years. Maybe Hyundai makese them better than Jeep did.

When we got the Sonata GLS for my wife a year ago, I got the heated seats because all the dealer had in stock in a red/tan GLS was a fully loaded one, with the package that includes the heated (cloth) seats and a bunch of other stuff like the trick rear view mirror and 2 sets of mats. I never thought I'd need/want heated cloth seats. I only had one car before that with heated seats, a 328Ci. That had leather so the heaters were greatly appreciated. But I used the seat heaters on that Sonata a LOT last winter, especially in the morning when I go work out and like to just wear shorts if possible. And the heaters didn't cost me anything; dealer gave me same lease on the loaded GLS as a base because they only had the one car in stock that I wanted, I would have walked otherwise. Best $47 a month I've ever spent.

My wife calls it Enterprise because it looks like a starship to her. She loves it.

I can live w/o the moonroof, but I do miss the one on my Elantra. One of my sons drives that car to college now. It's still under warranty for a few months.

akirby · October 2013

"But sharing everything down to the engines and suspension tuning is taking it a bit far down the GM path. It is a common problem - see Ford Fusion vs Lincoln MKZ"

Fusion and MKZ no longer share suspensions - the MKZ gets Ride Control - electronically controlled with multiple settings. And the current shared 2.0L EB will likely be replaced by the new 2.3L EB (same for Escape and MKC). And the MKZ 3.7L is already unique to the MKZ. If they change the hybrid MKZ to the 2.3L then it will have unique suspensions and drivetrains.

Kirstie_H · October 2013

Hey, if there's a broad topic you want to discuss that would take the midsize sedans 2.0 conversation off-topic to a point where you feel like others here wouldn't be interested, knock yourself out! We welcome you to start any discussion for conversation that interests you.

This would, of course, exclude discussions with a hostile premise, e.g., "People who like sedans suck," but obviously no one's suggesting THAT.

[Deleted User] · October 2013

There was a mid size sedan comparo in the May 2012 Car and Driver that pitted the Sonata SE against the Optima EX. The cars do not share suspension tuning, interior panels, or exterior panels. They only share the unit body and powertrains + the computers to run them. Both platforms sell very well. The Lacrosse, XTS, and the Impala are great cars and Buck is very very popular in China. I think GM is doing well.

Lincoln was in trouble with the last generation of Mk-Z, MK-X and their Fusion and Edge underpinnings. No one was fooled about the Ford(s) underneath and Lincolns sales plummeted. They have done a much better job with the new models, but the car mags are still very critical because Lincoln almost went under completely. The Mk-Z is now a killer looking car...but the car mags do not know if it is going to be able to turn Lincoln around.

akirby · October 2013

The MKZ wasn't meant to "turn Lincoln around". It's just good fodder for blogs and magazines to sensationalize it for purposes of entertainment and garnering web clicks. Ford can afford to wait for a comprehensive, long term turnaround plan for Lincoln that goes far beyond anything they've done in the last 30 years. It starts with the MKC due out early next year and includes more than just a couple of new vehicles.

[Deleted User] · October 2013

The Sonata in the picture is pretty much as fully loaded as you can get on a non-turbo, it has the tan/black interior, and the 17" wheels, plus the fogs and dual exhaust I like, I would drive that car in a minute. The only Sonata's In rag on are the GLS hubcap specials.

I can't understand why a guy would buy the Kia Optima LX where you get the rims and fogs and dual exhaust with a bit more HP (2) over a Sonata GLS.

To me it is a more sporty package. Also, the seats on the Sonata SE are not attractive with the cloth and the vinyl bolsters, where you get leather on the competing Optima EX.

Lastly, I don't like the chrome on the grill. It is just a bit too much to me. Now you know I am picking nits here....but since both dealers were right next door, I had the opportunity to look at the Sonata and the Optima extensively, and with the exception of the Kia stigma, it's a great looking car.

****my smileys don't work so please know the following is three of them :

ahightower · October 2013

My new Accord (and now that I'm watching for it, it seems almost every Accord on the road) has this dealer-installed tape stripe or pinstripe, whatever you want to call it, along the shoulder line. The car is dark gray, the stripe is light gray. Little H logo around the front fender. I'm trying to decide whether I should remove it. Seems like if the designers had wanted a stripe there, they'd come that way from the factory. I didn't mind it at first, but in looking at photos online without the stripe, the design seems cleaner. Now it feels like nothing more then an overpriced dealer extra - costs them $2, they charge $200, and let you feel like you "won" by negotiating down to $99... They also already installed mud flaps, door edge guards, wheel locks, and window tint. Toyota dealers seem to be pretty bad about these things too. I wanted all but the tape stripe anyway, and I paid less than half of their sticker price but it irked me the way all that crap was put on without asking, and hidden in the fine print (online quoted price excluded dealer installed accessories... Drove farther across town to save $200 versus another dealer's online quote, then they try to tack on $1500 of extras.)

At any rate, I suppose I've already decided to peel the darn thing off, but wondering what everyone else thinks. What say you all? Tape stripe - nifty style bonus, or extraneous dealer crap?

And if removing, best method to remove without damaging paint?

kyrpto · October 2013

Hyundai is upping the ante in the mid-sized sedan segment with these upgrades to the 2014 Sonata:

New 17- and 18-inch wheels
HID Xenon headlights
LED taillights

Driver Selectable Steering Mode (DSSM)  standard on all trims
Vehicle Stability Management (VSM)  standard on all trims
Tire-specific Tire Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS)  standard on all trims

Sport-tuned dual exhaust  standard on SE 2.0T
Drivers blind spot mirror  optional on GLS
Blind Spot Detection System  optional on SE, standard on Limited

Ventilated driver seat  standard on Limited
LED dome light optional on GLS  standard on SE and Limited
Carbon fiber interior trim  standard on SE

[Deleted User] · October 2013

If it is from the dealer don't stress over it. As long as you don't paint giant stripes on it like a kid with a V6 Mustang, or a giant wing on a Civic. No one will notice but us car guys.

backy · October 2013

Well, as I said, for $47/month our Sonata GLS is a great car!

It has the 16" alloys, which IMO are very sharp. Dual exhaust is nice but not high on my must-have list as I only see it when I walk up to the car from the rear. It has fogs. I'm not sure I could tell the difference between 198 hp and 200 hp. For me, the 160 hp on our 2007 Sonata was more than enough!

I don't like the Sonata SE's seats, either, but I do like the tan/black interior on our GLS except the tan is pretty light so it can get soiled easily. I fixed that problem with a can of Scotchgard, so any stains come right off now.

I don't mind the Sonata's grille, and on our GLS it's red with a chrome surround, so maybe it doesn't stick out as much as the all-chrome grille on the Limited.

I think both the Optima and Sonata are good looking cars. The Optima is more European, more buttoned-down, the Sonata more avant-garde. I wouldn't have had any problem getting an Optima LX last year instead of a Sonata, except the Hyundai dealer offered us a great deal on trading in our beat-up 2007 Sonata on the new Sonata lease, plus they had exactly the color combo I wanted and tossed in free oil changes and unlimited dent removal and wheel repairs (I never fail to scrape an alloy wheel against a curb once or twice), so the Sonata lease was a no-brainer.

ab348 · October 2013

One thing I will give Hyundai credit for is the aggressive tactics they let their dealers use to close a deal. Many other brand dealers seem to act disinterested, almost like they are doing you a favor if you buy their car. Hyundai will do anything and everything to move that iron off the lots.

dudleyr · October 2013

Remove the tape stripe. The car has a very strong built in shadow line the tape stripe interferes with that. Besides that it is not very attractive and will catch wax when you wax the car. It will also peel and fray and look unsavory after several years.

It should peel right off.

BTW I see very few Accords with this in my area.

backy · October 2013

Meh, not so special. I had a similar experience, actually MORE aggressive, from Nissan when my lease was up on a Sentra this summer. My gosh, the deals and specials they threw at me, and the emails and mails and phone calls I got from them! I'll give them credit for trying! Unfortunately for them, they didn't have any car I was interested in buying or leasing then. Kia did.

jayrider · October 2013

A pin striping will cost you $34-40 at the custom shop. That's retail. I can only guess what they squeeze the vendor at the dealer. Check google for ways to remove it. Should be 20-30 easy.

explorerx4 · October 2013

The selectable steering effort and tire specific tire pressure monitoring are good features, but about the only things that aren't yesterday's news for some other manufacturers.

ab348 · October 2013

Other manufacturers offer both of those and have for some time. GM has had specific TPMS data on the vehicle display for several model years. With electric power steering the effort selection is relatively simple to engineer.

explorerx4 · October 2013

My Fusion has some features you can't get on the new Sonata, but I'm acknowledging features that the Fusion does not have.
No cars match exactly feature for feature.
The differences usually fall into the 'nice to have' categories.

ab348 · October 2013

Agreed. Often it's just icing to cover up a rather stale cake.

explorerx4 · October 2013

I prefer to keep things more objective. People can make their own decisions how they like their cake.

kyrpto · October 2013

Building on their well deserved reputation as a design leader, Hyundai designers and engineers have upgraded nearly every system in the 2014 Sonata.
More than 50 of the Sonatas major sub-systems are new or redesigned.
A few more examples:

New full-leather steering wheel on SE and Limited
New eight-inch navigation screen
New color audio screens with HD Radio and rearview camera integration  optional on GLS and standard on SE and Limited
New color LCD information screen between the tachometer and speedometer  standard on SE and Limited

Kinda' makes me wish I had waited on the 2014s.
New body styling is reputedly due next year.

ab348 · October 2013

I was speaking generally. Most MCR efforts are like this.

kyrpto · October 2013

The Sonatas quick-ratio steering rack has a turning diameter of 35.8 feet, better than the Accord, Camry, Altima, Fusion and Chevy Malibu.
Easier to park.

wayne21 · October 2013

In looking at the USAA prices for my area it appears Hyundai, the one-time "value or price leader" costs more than an accord. Although the 4 cyl 2014 accord stickers for $1,000 or more per equivalent sonata it actually can be purchased for $1,000 to $2,000 less than the equivalent 2014 sonata.

kyrpto · October 2013

Appears is the key word here.
Hyundai is well known for discounting the MSRP so you can't really speak to the actual purchase prices folks wherever you are will be offered.

According to many the much improved 2014s offer even greater value for the money, adding numerous highly desired features with an MSRP increase of only $155 on the Sonata GLS.

gene103 · October 2013

Never understood the reason for tire specific TPM. Most people will find the kight go on because they haven't checked their tires in a while. They should be checking all four when it goes on. If the light is specific, there will be a lot of lazy people who will inflate one tire to the proper level and drive on three under inflated. Besides, I have to pay $1 in my area to get air so you better believe I'll always be checking all four.

jayrider · October 2013

My Buick shows the tire pressure number for each tire and location. With cold weather coming, I need to top them up to 1 pound over recommended pressure. Have a 110 volt pump that works great and fast. No trips to the service station .

wayne21 · October 2013

Let me rephrase it for the Hyundai sales staff. On the USAA website for my zip code one CAN purchase a 2014 Honda accord for between $1,000 and $2,000 less than the equivalent 2014 Hyundai sonata.

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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