Midsize Sedans 2.0

akirby · November 2013

I bought one of the very first 2006 Fusions off the truck back in 2005. Loaded SEL V6. In 7 years it had one repair - I replaced the interior door handle for $60 in ten minutes. Never saw the dealer. Still had the original brakes. Only replaced the tires and battery. No squeaks or rattles. Never failed to start even when the battery was going bad.

explorerx4 · November 2013

Been listening to a Jazz station for a while, the upbeat and smooth songs just seems to match the mood the car puts me in when I'm driving it.
My old Explorer needs loud music to drown out the wind noise on the highway.
The first thing I did when I brought our Mustang GT convertible home was to put the antenna in the trunk. It's pretty much spent 22 years in there. The engine and exhaust make all the music I need. :shades:

explorerx4 · November 2013

One of the reasons I went back to a Fusion was the 2007 I had for about 39 months. Got free oil changes and had it serviced every 5k, so I just paid for tire rotations. I did put in a new air filter in every spring and change the windshield wipers every fall. Total out of my pocket was around $250.
Never had to bring it in for anything else.
It was built in December 2006 and I brought it new with about 50 miles on it in March 2008.

vser · November 2013

Curious. What shoukd I look for when evaluating the extent of my trade in. I've been told a price on a new car. Then they said they'll be aggressive on my trade in. Anything I should look for in general? For example, if I want an sx turbo for 24 including my trade, should I care how they get there?

explorerx4 · November 2013

Try here. There is a form at the bottom of the page for providing the recommended info.
Trade in forum

akirby · November 2013

Just remember that in the end you're only getting the wholesale value of the vehicle. The dealer can buy the same vehicle at auction tomorrow so they're not giving you much more than that. And wholesale can vary a lot from county to county depending on the local market. If you can get a quote from car max that's a good reference. And always negotiate the price of the new vehicle first without the trade in so they don't play games with the 2 prices.

[Deleted User] · November 2013

Oh yeah, I love my Optima free oil changes too. I also couldn't believe the amount of debris in my cabin filter after only 18 mos.

The dealer wanted $60 to put a new one in. I bought one at Advance for $9 and put it in myself. I hope people know that the cabin filter is behind the glove box and is owner serviceable.

At the same time (August) I installed the Bosch blade style windshield wipers and treated the windows with Rain-X. Awesome.

I also put in a K&N drop in engine filter, so I don't have to deal with that until about 50 k.
In other words on this car everything has just fallen into place in a good way. Feeling very blessed.

vser · November 2013

That's my point. If I want a car for 27 and I'd like 3-4k aggressively for my trade, why should I care if the give me the new car for 28 and give me 5k for the trade.

m6user · November 2013

You shouldn't care. The only important thing is how much you write the check for or agree to finance, whichever is the case. I've seen people get all upset because the dealer adds a doc fee or something. The only thing to worry about is the final price. It doesn't matter how the dealer wants to juggle the numbers to get to your price.

wayne21 · November 2013

cski - on ur K&N air filter I'd suggest you observe for any difference in mileage if mileage is an issue to you and that you monitor your air flow sensor. I have given many K&Ns as Christmas presents and have used them for a long time myself. Earlier on this site, someone pointed out the issue of air flow sensor problems when using K&N and I'd never heard of that. I googled it and saw there were a lot of complaints. In my current car, I put a K&N in the day I bought it and I've cleaned it every year. After being informed of the air flow sensor issue, I removed the K&N. I pulled my system apart the next day only to find my air flow sensor pretty saturated (I didn't oversaturate the filter when I cleaned it). I don't check my mileage on the car, but I do have the computer display miles to empty. IDK how many tanks I've gone through since changing from the K&N to a regular filter, but I immediately noticed an additional 13 miles to empty on every refueling (about 1 mpg increase with a conventional filter) and it continues to be the same. Not interested in scaring you, but think it should at least be something you keep in the back of your mind.

[Deleted User] · November 2013

Hey thanks man. I will check it out. I like the way it makes the motor sound, but other than that no one is going to really feel a two horsepower increase so if it damages the MASF I will check it at least.

I wish I could not look at the MPG, as it really just serves to piss me off. 24 mpg my A**.

akirby · November 2013

You don't care as long as you know the separate prices you want. Dealers like to play games like giving you an extra $1K on the trade but charging MSRP on the new one. If you get the best possible price on the new one without the trade then they can't play games with the trade in price unless you want them to for financing purposes.

[Deleted User] · November 2013

Not having to play trade in games with the dealer is exactly why I keep my cars as long as possible, and then sell them outright. Selling a well maintained Asian car is very easy, and most people can come up with 2 to 5 thousand to buy a used car from a private owner. I then take that cash and put it down on the new car. This way, no games. I get maximum value out of my cars before they need expensive repairs.

It is a different story when you try to sell a $15,000 car outright to a private owner and is usually much easier to just trade it. Most folks who have 15 grand lying around can afford a new car! Those who can't have to get a bank loan, while the owner waits around and worries about the deal falling through, and still having to make payments in the meantime. (It is a pain in the butt).

ahightower · November 2013

As m6user said, it doesn't matter as long as you keep your eye on the amount financed (or size of check written if a cash buyer).

If financing, they will want to talk in terms of monthly payments, not in terms of actual prices. What if you have to trade in sooner than expected, or want to pay it off faster?

I ended up with a higher price on my Accord because after negotiating the price of the car (internet quote) and the price of the trade (Carmax quote) and even knowing my interest rate (credit union prequalification), they made a very strong offer on an extended warranty. Come to find out, they "subsidized" the interest rate even lower (from 1.9% Honda advertised special to 1.05%). I didn't know this was possible. I knew dealers did not have to give you the best rate you qualified for, but I didn't think Honda could go lower than the advertised special rate. So at the end of the day, they financed a higher amount at a lower rate, and I ended up paying full price for the warranty.

It doesn't bother me because that's an incredibly low rate, why would I pay it off early (even the 1.9% was much better than what my credit union was offering)? Also, the warranty can be cancelled and unearned premium returned if I so choose.

I only feel slightly annoyed with myself because I did not have complete info. He started by telling me my payment based on all the parameters I knew. Then he offered the warranty in terms of extra cost per month. I declined. Then he lowered it, I declined again. Then he lowered it once more, and I accepted ($20 a month for 100K bumper to bumper... why not? It addressed my only reservation about buying in the first model year of the new Accord, instead of the tried-and-true and long warrantied Optima). But I thought he had been lowering the price of the warranty when in fact he had been lowering the interest rate.

Again, if you're not paying off or trading in early, the total cost to you is the same. But I prefer to have full knowledge of what's going on in the negotiation.

jayrider · November 2013

Hopefully, you got the Honda extended warranty and not an after market one.

[Deleted User] · November 2013

When buying a new car the dealer always sells a manufacturer owned extended warranty policy. The off brand policies are usually sold on independent used car dealerships, but your point is valid. Most aftermarket policies exclude a lot of items that are likely to break, leaving the owner a piece of paper and a higher payment.

akirby · November 2013

A lot of new car dealers sell aftermarket warranties because they can usually make more money on them.

jayrider · November 2013

When I bought my Buick, the only extended warranty they offered was after market. They said the GM policy was too expensive. With 4 years of factory warranty, I wasn't buying anything anyway.

[Deleted User] · November 2013

Well, I guess I could put it this way, since I used to be a buyer for GMAC:

ATTENTION CONSUMERS: NEVER BUY A THIRD PARTY EXTENDED WARRANTY

I don't recommend any warranty other than a manufacturer-backed one. You would be better off saving $50 a month for auto repairs in a bank account.

akirby · November 2013

Totally agree - never buy a 3rd party warranty. But the fact is they are offered by a lot of dealers on new vehicles.

crkyolfrt · November 2013

Furthermore, don't third party extended wty plans usually mean you have to pay for the repair and then wait to get reimbursed..wondering the whole time if they will try to find a loophole to get out of, or a partial loophole?

[Deleted User] · November 2013

Here is a site on extended warranty advice, do's and don'ts.

http://www.consumerautomotiveresearch.com/Where-Not-to-Buy-an-Auto-Warranty.htm<

backy · November 2013

The one extended warranty I got, many years ago on a used minivan, paid directly to the repair shop. Worked great, for a few repairs... until the warranty company went under. Lesson learned in a big way.

As was stated: NEVER BUY A THIRD-PARTY EXTENDED WARRANTY!

crkyolfrt · November 2013

Lots of good info following that trail link, thanks. Did you purchase your BtB till 100k mi from Kia? I guess it's 10 yr? How much was it?

That whole Hyundai/Kia 10yr/100k powertrain wty (the OEM one that comes std with each new vehicle) has always been a point of contention with me here in Cda where that same wty coverage is only 5 yr 100k km. So 5 years and 38000 miles LESS. If you call head office for both, you should hear the crap they try to get you to accept as corporate rules and guidelines that they follow for the different countries. [non-permissible content removed] I say! If you can wty a car in the USA in States that have equivalent seasonal conditions as Cda does, then you can dang well provide the same level of wty coverage!

I am presently interested in a '14 Rondo, yet if I end up deciding on ANY Hyundai/Kia, I know this injustice is gonna bug the crap outta me if somewhere north of 5 yr and 62000 mi I end up having an expensive drivetrain failure and they then tell me that I'm not covered "cuz I'm outta wty".

explorerx4 · November 2013

I've brought a 3rd party warranty from a dealer and had it work out ok.
With an extended warranty, it pays to thoroughly read the term of coverage.
One times my wife's car broke down. Had it towed to the local dealer and diagnosed it as a bad fuel pump.
When the called the warranty company, they said the car had to be serviced at the selling dealer because it was less than 40 miles away.
I got on the phone with them and they said they measure by radius so the car was 38 miles away.
Had to have it towed 40+ miles to the selling dealer to get fixed.
To their credit, they reimbursed the tow and I didn't have to pay to get the car fixed. Did end up paying for the original diagnosis at the first dealer.

With Ford's extended warranty, if you terminate it before it expires, you have to do that at the selling dealership.
My wife just bought one on line from a dealer who has a big business in selling warranties, but it was from the same dealer where she bought her Escape.

ahightower · November 2013

Another reason to care: Sales tax is based on the "price" of the car. Better to get "less for your trade".

backy · November 2013

Not sure what you mean by that. In MN, the sales tax on a car is computed on the price of the car you're buying, less the trade in. So the more you get for your trade, the lower the sales tax.

ahightower · November 2013

IIRC, sales tax here was on the vehicle sales price, then trade in allowance was deducted from the total. Maybe mistaken. Anyway. Sorry for turning this into the car buying forum. (It is more interesting and pleasant than the my car is better than yours forum it had become though.)

explorerx4 · November 2013

Next time I fill up the Fusion, I'm going back to RUG. Premium may have made the car a little peppier, but mileage didn't really change that I can see.
Price difference is around 30 cents, so it doesn't seem to be worth it.

ab348 · November 2013

Factory warranties have little or nothing to do with the quality of the car. They are sales tools for competitive purposes, nothing more.

crkyolfrt · November 2013

Until you have to make a claim.

For my own purposes, time restrictions mean more to me than mileage.

As for quality content, any manufacturer can fall prey to a parts supplier who ended up supplying subpar parts. But..manufacturers who have a reputation for treading the fine line of price point when they accept bids, are probably the same ones who get a bit of recognition if they offer a longer and more comprehensive wty than their perceived competition.

[Deleted User] · November 2013

The reason the warranty is shorter in Canada is due to the corrosive and harsh environment. Your long winters full of snow, ice, salt + water and abrasive materials to melt is murder on a car, so why is it still offered in America in Sates with similar conditions? Market. We have 400,000,000 people and you guys have 50 million. The southern states where claims are low balance out the states where claims are high. We have far more temperate States than snowy ones.

My family is from Buffalo. I used to be shocked when I visited at all the cars with just terrible rust. I love the people, and the winter sports, and the falls, but I wouldn't want to own a car there.
Hey, my uncle has a garage w/ a sloped floor and a drain with a heated floor. He said a lot of houses have them up north, where you can wash your car INSIDE the garage. Pretty cool. Just clearing 6" of snow off a car every day would suck so a garage is just a must.

explorerx4 · November 2013

What does rust have to do with a power train warranty?
Your market comment, that makes more sense to me.

[Deleted User] · November 2013

Yeah, I posted over there and no one replied, plus all the talk was technical to the point of severe boredom. I like to and am good at buying cars, but I darn sure don't want to talk about doc fee's and tax's all day.

fushigi · November 2013

Both my former and current vehicle are "premium recommended". When I've run RUG to test the difference I noticed an approximate 0.5MPG reduction in fuel economy. So I just did the math and determined that when premium is so many cents higher than RUG, premium wins. Lately, the gas stations in Chicagoland have jacked the difference in price between RUG & premium; it used to be 20-25 cents per gallon but now 45+ CPG seems to be taking over. With that making the price delta over 10%, I'm going to wind up dropping to RUG as well.

And while there is a slight power difference, it simply doesn't affect everyday driving enough to matter.

[Deleted User] · November 2013

Thanks for sharing your experience. I had a Taurus SHO that required premium and I really felt the difference in my pocket more than in the seat of my pants horsepower wise. The gas gauge said "premium recommended" so, I used PUG.

[Deleted User] · November 2013

2012 Kia Optima EX base, 23,750 miles = $16,179 in Excellent condition.

How much do I owe? $12,860.

I was told that it is best to sell right now to get maximum value out of my car. No one wants an old Kia it seems. I have purchased this car to last 10 years though, but I do not like losing even a penny if I don't have to.

Now I am going to see how much people are actually paying on Accord and Mazda 6.

vser · November 2013

I thought you liked your Optima?

[Deleted User] · November 2013

I didn't say I was GOING to trade it! I am trying to see what kind of deal I would get if I did.

There are a lot of 2 year old, 25,000 mile cars on the used market. I found 50 Optimas under $20k for example. I was trying to see how little I could get an SX turbo for. Curiously, not a single one of the 50 low mileage Optima's for sale are in my color. None.
Also, I have been on the Optima forums site, and they said the reason for that is that Kia dealers are telling a lot of customers that they can get max value for their 2 year old low mileage cars now. The Optima model is very popular as a used car since it has received so much good press, and is very good looking and feature rich for the money. Getting a 200 hp sedan for 18 k, with push button start, 17' alloys, leather, 35 mpg, and dual zone climate control for thousands less than a new Focus, Mazda 3, etc with those same features is a great deal. So, dealers want them on their lots. Just something to think about.

vser · November 2013

That's prob why the lease deals are pretty good right now. I think most dealers love selling those three year old cars. Still not sure if I should lease or buy. I think right now if I can get a lease where I need it to be, I'll lease it.

[Deleted User] · November 2013

I think they also enjoy selling new cars to folks that are qualified as well. If you have a low mileage, 2 to 3 year old car, then you likely qualify for another new one. I have never leased a car. I like knowing it is mine...even though it is really owned by the bank; but in the end I will own it outright after a few short years.

The more I think about it, the more I don't want to play the game. I know the longer you drive a paid for car, the more you save. I just love cars so I need to avoid the temptation!

explorerx4 · November 2013

First time in 3 weeks. MPG average was the second worst I've had, 25.7.
Weather is getting cooler and I did more short trips.
Good news is I put in 14.5 gallons, so the new fuel tank is better than the old one.
Also filled with RUG which was 42 cents cheaper the the premium fuel I brought last fill up.

jplatt2 · November 2013

Don't rule out leasing so fast if you don't put a lot of miles on the car.

Here's a very simplistic example but you will get the idea.

You can lease a base midsize for about $250 a month with nothing out of pocket. Assume similar lease deals every three years. You would be paying $30K over ten years. If you purchase and finance, you would pay about $25K by the time you own the car. So for $5K over ten years, you would be on your fourth new car in year 10, never having driven a car that was more than three years old. No out of warranty repairs which could potentially save you a lot (though your collision insurance will be higher.) Think about all the technology that didn't exist ten years ago. You'd be in a similar position in your ten year old car. Just something to consider.

[Deleted User] · November 2013

I understand. I just have to juggle what I am going to do about having a teen driver right when it is paid for. No way I am letting her drive a brand new car.

You know, leasing something and passing my Optima down might be a really good idea. That way I have a nice new ride with a low payment, and my teen driver will have my 5 year old car to drive that still has 5 years and 40,000 miles of b2b still left on it. I retain ownership and just add her, so the insurance is doable. I would feel good about her driving the Optima with all the safety features/air bags, and a nice sturdy platform

Life is complicated with three kids. I have to factor them in to every decision I make. Ain't life grand?

akirby · November 2013

Don't forget you'll be paying a lot more for insurance on the leased vehicles since they're always newer.

m6user · November 2013

He actually mentioned that in his post about higher collision insurance although comprehensive(theft) would be more also. Another thing though is sales tax. In Illinois one has to pay sales on the total amount of the car...not just on the total of the lease payments. At 7% or more that would get very expensive every 3 years. That and gap insurance to boot. If I lived in a state where just the payments were taxed it might be feasible as I can limit my miles if need be by driving my paid for pickup a little more.

stickguy · November 2013

not just the 5K you save. At the end of the 10 years, you will also own the 10 YO car outright.

backy · November 2013

I'm glad I live in a state where on a lease you only pay sales tax on only the lease payments, not on the total value of the car! Also every lease I've ever had included gap insurance at no extra cost.

The thing I like most about leases is I have a low, predictable cash outlay each month with nothing out of pocket up front (except maybe the first payment). I don't need to worry about repair costs. Sure, I can drive on the cheap and buy a used car, and did this summer (2005 Mazda6i for my daughter), but you never know when something will break on it (already had to replace the alternator).

Also I found that insurance costs may not be that much different between a new and used car. For example, when I traded my 2007 Sonata GLS in for a lease on a 2013 Sonata a year ago, there was almost no difference in insurance costs.

stickguy · November 2013

correct that new vs. used is not a big difference. If you want that, you need to (usually) go real used, and get a car without comp or collision coverage.

m6user · November 2013

Like I said, I would be tempted to lease if not for the sales tax problem. On a $30-40k vehicle that adds up quickly over two or three leases. Just the tax on one lease would probably equal the tax you would pay in 3 leases.

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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