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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    So a few hundred dollars every 105k...that sounds like its pretty much in the noise. You probably end up combining it with the timing belt service and the water-pump gets done then too.
    Its not like the olden days where you had to change or clean or regap the plugs every 6000 miles because the car was running too rich. The more modern spark plugs are actually self cleaning...they reverse fire to clean the electrode tip.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I've heard and adopted the opinion that leaving plugs in for more than 4-5 years is not a good idea...that is 40,000 to 50,000 miles for me. Also this is probably just be one of many issues that are more expensive to fix/maintain on the V6.

    Ultimately in comes down to my opinion that a V6 is these cars is overkill, so no reason for me to bother with the extra expenses of having one. Only in America do we think such large powerful engines are needed in cars like these.

    Or are we going by what feels about midsized? because that seems kind of fuzzy.

    Midsize is a fuzzy concept. Saying car A is included with volume at 119, but car B is out because it is at 120 and Car C is in with a volume of 110, but Car D is out because it is 109 makes things unfuzzy, but sensless.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    The line for mid-size, compact, etc. has to be drawn somewhere, so what not use the EPA standards? That's the only measurement that makes sense to me even though the with/without a moon roof does stretch the point just a bit.

    I'll continue to think of the Accord as a mid-size until it grows some more.
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    The Avalon and Taurus are considered full size vehicles (who's saying they're not?) and the Accord is still mid-size.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    It appears we are going here by what the automakers think are their mid-sized sedan offerings more than anything else. That explains, for example, why cars that are officially mid-sized inside like the Accord and Sonata are in this group, because they are positioned as Honda's and Hyundai's mid-sized cars. It also explains why smaller cars with mid-sized room, e.g. Elantra and Sentra, aren't here because they are positioned as compacts in their makers' lineups. And it explains why cars like the Azera, Avalon, etc. aren't here because even though some of them are actually smaller outside (or even inside) than some "mid-sized" cars, they are positioned as the "large" cars in the automakers' lineups.

    Since factors like EPA interior ratings and exterior dimensions etc. often conflict, I think going by how the cars are positioned in the marketplace makes as much sense as any other method to decide what to discuss here.

    If we take that approach, though, some big omissions here are the Malibu, G6, and LaCrosse. GM is clearly positioning these cars as mid-sized offerings. But there are technical reasons why we can't show more cars on the list for this discussion, right? (So the Milan isn't here, for example.) Even so, we might want to keep them in the picture mentally.

    If we had to choose whether to inlcude cars like the Malibu and LaCrosse vs. the Legacy, Mazda6, and Optima, I'd have to vote for the Malibu and LaCrosse due to market impact. Although I can see why Edmunds would not want to omit the Legacy and Mazda6, since they seem to have a special relationship with Subaru and Mazda owners. Maybe Edmunds' Web techs could figure out a way to list more vehicles on one discussion?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Actually I'd vote for the Legacy before the Malibu. Not for anything, but why even talk about kicking out the Legacy?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    That explains, for example, why cars that are officially mid-sized inside like the Accord and Sonata are in this group, because they are positioned as Honda's and Hyundai's mid-sized cars.

    Not really. Do these companies market those cars as midsizers, or as family sedans? It is here at Edmunds that folks often pick and choose what they want to discuss. It has little to do with EPA or manufacturers more with personal whim.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I'd rather see the discussion opened up to ALL mid-sized sedans rather than having someone arbitrarily decide which nine cars to include. But if it has to be nine, why not the biggest sellers, which includes the Malibu--and doesn't include the Legacy. Maybe the Malibu could represent GM's mid-sizers, i.e. replace the Aura, as the Fusion represents the Fusion and Milan now. Basically, then, each manufacturer would be represented by one car (except for Mitsubishi...).
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Great, let's go with personal whim then. Everything goes here, folks! Versas, Accords, Impalas, Crown Vics--let's talk about all of 'em!! As long as one person thinks it belongs here, that's fine.

    Somehow, I don't think that's going to fly...
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Maybe the Malibu could represent GM's mid-sizers, i.e. replace the Aura,

    I agree. The Malibu will, no doubt, sell better than the Aura has, and will include a much larger number of midsize buyers.
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    This discussion about which cars can be discussed in this thread is becoming tiresome. The Malibu replacing the Aura because it's a better seller??? Oh brother. Both vehicles have been discussed here and both will continue to be discussed here.

    Below is a list to go by. They're not all classified as mid size vehicles by the EPA but they're either at the high end of the compact class or the low end of the full size class. I believe those in the auto industry would agree that all of these vehicles belong in the same segment.

    LaCrosse
    Impala
    Malibu
    Sebring
    Avenger
    Fusion
    Accord
    Sonata
    Optima
    6
    Milan
    Galant
    Altima
    G6
    Aura
    Legacy
    Camry
    Passat
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Sure, the Malibu (and the other cars in that list) should be, and are discussed here, but the Malibu is not included in the list for user reviews. I just think the Malibu should get the spot over the low-selling Aura. It's a very similar car, but with a larger audience.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, exactly. That was the point. Not that we shouldn't discuss the Aura and other mid-sized cars that won't fit into the list you see on the right, but there's only so many cars that will fit there. Hence my suggestion of Malibu vs. Aura.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    That is a pretty good list, there are probably a few others. Anyway, I would think anything on Edmunds lists of midsize sedans would be fair game...at least up to some price point such as $30 or 35K.
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    Cant agree with that list.Impala in the same category with Optima? Imapala is bigger ,higher powered and more expensive.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    I miss the days when we actually talked about the cars themselves instead of the EPA standards for fuel economy, or which cars should be included in "the list".

    Seriously, I'm getting bored of these pointless conversations, can we PLEASE move on?
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668

    Seriously, I'm getting bored of these pointless conversations, can we PLEASE move on?

    Do any, reasonably priced that is, mid-size sedans have turn signals in the outside rear-view mirrors? I think this a nice safety feature (and it's just plain neat). Quite a few Benzs have this feature, as do Caddys and a lot of SUVs. I think it should be a mandatory safety feature.

    Our 2007 SEL AWD Fusion has heated outside mirrors -- a nice feature -- and so-called puddle lamps, white lights on the bottom of the outside mirror that light up when the doors are unlocked. These are nice touches but blinkers in the mirrors would be even nicer.

    All Fusions also come with a steering wheels that tilt and telescope. A big plus when it comes to obtaining a good driving position.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Do any, reasonably priced that is, mid-size sedans have turn signals in the outside rear-view mirrors? I think this a nice safety feature (and it's just plain neat).

    It's not a deal-breaker for me, but I'd like my next car to have them. Unfortunately, some of the turn signals are only seen from the front/side or the rear. I think they should be seen from every angle for them to be effective.

    Even the repeater placed behind the front wheels works well also. My sister's Aura has them, and doesn't VW still include them on the Passat and/or Jetta as well?

    Our 2007 SEL AWD Fusion has heated outside mirrors -- a nice feature --

    The Mazda6 has them as well, and they should be standard in northern climates AFAIC.

    All Fusions also come with a steering wheels that tilt and telescope. A big plus when it comes to obtaining a good driving position.

    Are there any other cars in this class that does NOT have a tilt/telescope wheel? The wheel in my old Grand Am tilted, but no telescope, and it had notches where the wheel needed to be located, unlike the infinitely-variable tilt/telescope that my 6 has.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Do any, reasonably priced that is, mid-size sedans have turn signals in the outside rear-view mirrors?

    Honda, Subaru, VW pop into my head. I am sure there are more in the class.

    In the olden days, say back in 1995 or so they rage was to put "signal repeaters" on the front fenders. The tuner crowd figured out that everywhere the US market cars had a badge (the 24v badge on the Contour, the Accord had a trim piece in that spot) there was a "signal repeater" in another country. Thus, going trough the JDM/Euro parts catalogs would get the appropriate part to fit in that location.

    Actually, I assumed you were talking about the signals that were on the front of the mirror as opposed to the one on the face of the mirror like on the Expedition. I think that real estate might be given up to collision warning systems anyway.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    In the olden days, say back in 1995 or so ...

    Boy, you sure are a young whippersnapper, huh? 1995 = olden days. I've had my laugh for today.

    Actually my preferred position for the turn signal repeater is the outward edge of the outside rear-view mirror, so it can be seen from both front and back. I've only noticed a few cars with this feature and the models do not come immediately to mind.

    Honda has repeaters in the mirrors? Did not know that. What models? The Accord?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Our 2007 SEL AWD Fusion has heated outside mirrors -- a nice feature

    My 2006 4-cylinder Accord EX (I do not have the more upscale leather model) has heated mirrors as well. They may get used 10 days out of the year here in Birmingham, AL, and that's typically due to fog, not ice.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    I think they should be seen from every angle for them to be effective.

    Agreed. It defeats the purpose if they don't work that way.

    ... unlike the infinitely-variable tilt/telescope that my 6 has.

    Same for the Fusion. Very handy.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I like those repeaters in the side mirrors(since when did they start being called "outside rear view mirrors"?) as I think it cuts down on the people that leave their turn signals on. The turn signal sound is so low now that most people can't hear it and are leaving them on all the time. I personally do it sometimes as I like my steering wheel low and the rim blocks out the signal lights. In older cars the signal made a lot more noise (aggravating to some) and really prompted you to turn them off which is what they were supposed to do. I guess it doesn't matter much now that so few people even use their turn signals at all.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    I think they should be seen from every angle for them to be effective.

    Agreed. It defeats the purpose if they don't work that way.

    ... unlike the infinitely-variable tilt/telescope that my 6 has.

    Same for the Fusion. Very handy.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    In the olden days, say back in 1995 or so ...

    Boy, you sure are a young whippersnapper, huh? 1995 = olden days. I've had my laugh for today.

    I am glad you got a chuckle, that was the intention. I'm not that young, just making a funny.

    My buddy refers to the repeaters on the mirror face of the SUVs as the blinker of death. I was driving with him in a Miata as the SUV next to us simultaneously signal and move over on a 4 lane freeway. Luckily there was no one behind me so I could brake fast enough to let the 3 ton barge go by, but when you look directly overhead and see that mirror blinking...I see how he found that name for them.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    My buddy refers to the repeaters on the mirror face of the SUVs as the blinker of death. I was driving with him in a Miata as the SUV next to us simultaneously signal and move over on a 4 lane freeway.

    Yet another humorous tidbit -- the blinker of death. Actually my wife and I had a Mazda Miata for a while. I always felt intimidated in it, especially when alongside the tank-like SUVs. I feel more comfortable in the Fusion. It's too bad I didn't have the Miata in my youth, when I would have appreciated it more (and had more fun with it).
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    We drove to Pa from Il this week and I actually saw two Auras on the road.Those were the first two Auras I have seen not at a dealer. :)
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    I think all of the KIA Optimas have heated power mirrors.Pretty sure it's the same for the Hyundai Sonatas.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    I think all of the KIA Optimas have heated power mirrors.Pretty sure it's the same for the Hyundai Sonatas.

    The SEL Fusions also have heated outside mirrors. The S and SE do not, however. I think FoMoCo is wise to offer just the three models of Fusion and only two Mercury Milans, standard and premium. It keeps things simple. There is just one Lincoln MKZ, I believe.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    The SEL Fusions also have heated outside mirrors. The S and SE do not, however. I think FoMoCo is wise to offer just the three models of Fusion and only two Mercury Milans, standard and premium. It keeps things simple. There is just one Lincoln MKZ, I believe

    I think Ford would be wise to continue to follow the Honda example of DX/LX/EX (or S/SE/SEL) and bundle everything in as opposed to having 150 different options and configurations. It makes it less confusing for the consumer and it makes it easier to source and build. Fewer configurations means fewer parts, reduced complexity, easier build and theoretically, increased reliability and lower cost.
    Even Toyota has options at each trim level, although the higher you go, the fewer options left to choose. Honda actually defines the Nav system vehicles as different model numbers.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    And, in response to the related question re tilt/telescopic wheels.... all trims of the Optima have that, but the Sonata doesn't have the telescopic wheel on the base (GLS) trim. Hyundai did the same thing with the Elantra, so maybe Hyundai thinks only people who can afford the up-level trims of their mid-sized sedans deserve a telescopic wheel. :surprise:
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    Honda actually defines the Nav system vehicles as different model numbers.

    I realize I am just an old fuddy duddy but all navigation systems seem like a waste of time and money to me. Maybe its because we take so few trips, live in a small community. I know they are a popular option but it's not something I would ever want in a car.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I realize I am just an old fuddy duddy but all navigation systems seem like a waste of time and money to me. Maybe its because we take so few trips, live in a small community. I know they are a popular option but it's not something I would ever want in a car.

    I think its partially a price point thing. At $2k its hard to justify vs stopping at AAA and getting a trip-tik or something, but if you travel a lot, or if you are looking for specific locations, it can be really handy. Some work I did in grad school centered around nav systems and I usually had one in my vehicle, so I got somewhat spoiled.
    It's been very handy on trips when I had to cut through unfamiliar territory to get around a highway back-up/road construction or looking for a restaurant in a foreign town.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    ... but if you travel a lot, or if you are looking for specific locations, it can be really handy.

    I can see where some people could get a lot of use out of a nav system, but certainly not a majority of drivers. Still, probably a "must-have" for the gadget-conscious consumer.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    I think Ford would be wise to continue to follow the Honda example of DX/LX/EX (or S/SE/SEL) and bundle everything in as opposed to having 150 different options and configurations. It makes it less confusing for the consumer and it makes it easier to source and build. Fewer configurations means fewer parts, reduced complexity, easier build and theoretically, increased reliability and lower cost.

    It may lower the bottom line, but I'm sure they're plenty of car buyers that would rather have one or two options, instead of having to buy a model with options he/she doesn't want or need just to get what they want. Why should I be forced with a leather interior if I want a moonroof? Or be stuck with an overpriced Nav system just to get HIDs?

    "Fewer parts, reduced complexity"? Not if someone has to deal with a integrated Nav system just to play a CD. "Increased reliability"? I doubt that too, especially when said Nav system breaks down, and takes out the radio with it.

    Bundling may save $$$ and complexity, but only for the automaker, not the consumer.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I'm sure they're plenty of car buyers that would rather have one or two options, instead of having to buy a model with options he/she doesn't want or need just to get what they want.

    I doubt anyone gets exactly what they want, and don't want, when they buy a car. I want leather seats, but I would rather have manual adjustments for them, instead of power. I don't think any car can be optioned that way, so I have come to the conclusion that I will never get a car optioned exactly the way I want it. There are just too many options/combinations for each person to be completely satisfied.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Member Posts: 77
    I have likely seen 50+ Auras on the road since the car came out. I don't go a single week without seeing a few. I cant imagine that there are still people who have not seen one on the road yet.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I've seen two Auras on the road (it may have been the same one seen twice). I have seen more 08 Accords on the road (probably 10 so far). There are no Saturn dealers in my local area (40 miles).
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I can see where some people could get a lot of use out of a nav system, but certainly not a majority of drivers. Still, probably a "must-have" for the gadget-conscious consumer.

    There is a slippery slope when one projects their needs and buying habits into a broader population. Your particular driving habits might not necessitate a navigation system, but when you only drive 5000 mi/yr, you probably aren't going very far or very often. A navigation system, for a multitude of reasons, can be very handy. The issue might stem from the $2k price, but as that drops under a grand, it will be more feasible.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    It may lower the bottom line, but I'm sure they're plenty of car buyers that would rather have one or two options, instead of having to buy a model with options he/she doesn't want or need just to get what they want. Why should I be forced with a leather interior if I want a moonroof? Or be stuck with an overpriced Nav system just to get HIDs?

    Understanding how to pick the trim levels and what features should be standard on each model is the role of the market research team. Because Mazda (and VW) does a poor job of it doesn't mean its a bad idea.

    "Fewer parts, reduced complexity"? Not if someone has to deal with a integrated Nav system just to play a CD. "Increased reliability"? I doubt that too, especially when said Nav system breaks down, and takes out the radio with it.

    I can't think of any non-premium vehicle currently available that requires getting a navigation system for any other features.

    The fewer components and variations you have, the fewer parts required to be stocked, the fewer chances of someone picking the wrong one, and the lower percentage of one of those parts being bad (volume on steady state manufacturing is a good thing). The tier 1 suppliers and integrators have fewer components to contend with, and can spend more time developing each one vs having to divide that time and resources over more products (re end of Oldsmobile, Plymouth).

    Bundling may save $$$ and complexity, but only for the automaker, not the consumer.

    Riiight, because if the automaker can spend less money designing and building the car, it would never occur to them to make the car cheaper...
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Understanding how to pick the trim levels and what features should be standard on each model is the role of the market research team. Because Mazda (and VW) does a poor job of it doesn't mean its a bad idea.

    I can't think of any non-premium vehicle currently available that requires getting a navigation system for any other features.

    I didn't have any specific manufacturer or specific item in mind, they're simply called "examples". Either way, you still get my point.

    Besides, I would rather decide what I want in a vehicle that I'm paying with MY $$$. "Market research" can't (and won't) make that decision for me.

    Riiight, because if the automaker can spend less money designing and building the car, it would never occur to them to make the car cheaper...

    ...And by bundling items into specific packages with items some consumers don't want or need, yet they STILL have to pay for them. How exactly does it become cheaper for the consumer?
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    ...And by bundling items into specific packages with items some consumers don't want or need, yet they STILL have to pay for them. How exactly does it become cheaper for the consumer?

    It doesn't, of course, but it sure makes for increased profits for the manufacturers. Had I been ordering our 2007 Ford Fusion from scratch I probably would not have chosen AWD but the SEL on the lot had all of the other features we DID want: V6, six-speed automatic, heated leather seating, moon roof, upgraded radio/6 CD audio system, anti-lock brakes, traction control, etc., black interior, Oxford white exterior.

    We got a pretty good -- but not outstanding -- deal on the $27,105 MSRP car as it sat on the lot, equipped with AWD. In other words, the rest of the package helped to "sell" the AWD. Of course, little did I realize the AWD would be such a gas guzzler. The original EPA sticker said 19 mpg city/26 mpg highway. I foolishly thought that this being December 2006 (at the time) that I might actually achieve that mileage which has since been lowered to 17 city/24 highway.

    Our stop-'n'-go, short-hop city driving only yields 14.8 mpg almost constantly. Our terrain is as flat as a fritter. We over inflate the tires slightly. We are both conservative drivers. We are 50 feet above sea level.
  • tedebeartedebear Member Posts: 832
    I realize I am just an old fuddy duddy but all navigation systems seem like a waste of time and money to me.

    I used to think that until I bought my Sebring several months ago that came with a nav system. I wouldn't have ordered it that way but it was included on a car that otherwise was exactly what I wanted. Now I think it's one of the coolest things I've ever owned. Mapquest doesn't get a lot of business from me anymore.

    And it also came with tilt/telescoping steering wheel and heated outside mirrors. ;)
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    ...And by bundling items into specific packages with items some consumers don't want or need, yet they STILL have to pay for them. How exactly does it become cheaper for the consumer?

    Because the cost of those options bundled together is considerably less than having a different wiring harness for each application, a different vehicle architecture for each application, and different trim pieces to cover all the holes where the switches and buttons for the options not chose reside. The automakers call it give-away when its cheaper to bundle then to have separate parts. An example of this is automatic climate control and automatic headlamps. They need the same sensor anyway, why not bundle them?

    It doesn't, of course, but it sure makes for increased profits for the manufacturers. Had I been ordering our 2007 Ford Fusion from scratch I probably would not have chosen AWD but the SEL on the lot had all of the other features we DID want: V6, six-speed automatic, heated leather seating, moon roof, upgraded radio/6 CD audio system, anti-lock brakes, traction control, etc., black interior, Oxford white exterior.

    I think you are illustrating my point. The vehicle you picked had no trim level based package. On the Accord DX/LX/EX there are NO options (Nav, V6 and stick/auto are all different models, not options). You get what you get. If all the cars were equipped the same, your decision would've been that much easier.

    The other thing you could've done was ordered the car as you wanted it, or had the dealer done a swap or trade.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Besides, I would rather decide what I want in a vehicle that I'm paying with MY $$$. "Market research" can't (and won't) make that decision for me.

    In fantasy world it could happen this way:
    A customer decides what options he/she wants, the dealership orders it, then the customer waits months for the car (equipped exactly the way he/she wants it) to come in.

    Because customers are not willing to wait months for their car, and production costs would rise because every car would be specially made, it just will not work.

    Hence the guessing game is the only way.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Merry Christmas everyone!

    Let's have some eggnog - or whatever your wassail of choice might be - and remind ourselves that this discussion is about the cars themselves, not the manufacturers. As I look around, it appears that the Christmas grinch made off with a few posts - though he clearly missed a few candidates in his haste.

    Let's send him off to some other where while we toast the season and ensure that we stick to the cars and let the Auto News discussions continue the other debates about the manufacturers' philosophies and actions. :P

    Happy happy! Enjoy the season.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    In fantasy world it could happen this way:
    A customer decides what options he/she wants, the dealership orders it, then the customer waits months for the car (equipped exactly the way he/she wants it) to come in.

    Or it could be like how I bought my 6: Walked into a dealer with the EXACT car color/options/drivetrain that I wanted (Gray/moonroof, no leather/V6 with 5-speed manual). Dealer had none in inventory, but found said exact model 150 miles away at another dealer. Customer waited 2 days for car.

    Because customers are not willing to wait months for their car, and production costs would rise because every car would be specially made, it just will not work.

    Or, customers have just given up and settled for what they can get at a certain time, or settled for how an automaker bundles options instead of shopping around for other manufacturers that actually try and please their customers, instead of padding their bottom line. Hence the reason why I bought a 6 instead of an Accord.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Or it could be like how I bought my 6: Walked into a dealer with the EXACT car color/options/drivetrain that I wanted (Gray/moonroof, no leather/V6 with 5-speed manual). Dealer had none in inventory, but found said exact model 150 miles away at another dealer. Customer waited 2 days for car.

    Believe me, you are one of a very small percentage of customers who got exactly what he wanted. For instance, does the 6 come with leather seats with manual adjustments? I don't think so. I would still have to stand outside the car while the seat slooowly moves back so I can get in.

    So there isn't one option you would have wanted, but the 6 didn't have. Or one option it did have, that you could have easily done without? I find that hard to believe.
  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    I got excellent add on leather for my Optima for an additional $500 at purchase. Looks as good as factory installed.

    http://www.roadwire.com/
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I'm assuming it is made to accomodate your side airbags?
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