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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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    elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Transverse mounting is not required to have FWD, but it happens to be how most midsize sedans are designed. A V6 engine works better than an inline 6 in these designs (shorter is better). Room under the hood is less a problem now than it ever was. There are V6 engines that make the same hp as V8 engines of 10 years ago. I think that's why hoods keep getting shorter and shorter.
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    jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I don't think the suggestion was that an in-line 6 should be used instead of a V6, it was that the 4 cylinder is less crammed in than the V6. Like the other poster, I also prefer a 4 cyl in part because it is not so jammed in.
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    aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Nope. That's unfortunate, because I will be there on Friday. The first public view, meaning non-MNAO employees, will be April 25th at the dealer meetings in Denver, CO.
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    elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I don't think the suggestion was that an in-line 6 should be used instead of a V6, it was that the 4 cylinder is less crammed in than the V6. Like the other poster, I also prefer a 4 cyl in part because it is not so jammed in.

    It hasn't been a problem at this point, and I do my own maintenance. I don't think changing the oil, or air filter are any easier on the 4cylinder. I don't know where the oil filter is on the new 4cylinder, but on my V6 I can get to it without getting under the car. Changing the oil filter on my old 4cylinder Accord used to be a lot more difficult. I think the V6 is well worth any extra effort needed to perform the maintenance.
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    karsickkarsick Member Posts: 312
    I'm the one who bought up the 6cyl argument, but a careful reader would have seen I was suggesting a VR6 (for lack of a better term).

    Anyone unfamilar with this term needs to look up "VR6" to see how VW made a 6cyl as compact as many 4cyls.

    Sorry for any confusion :P
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    busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    I see where VW also uses an inline 5 cylinder in the Beetle and Jetta...How does that engine compare to the VR6?
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    karsickkarsick Member Posts: 312
    It gets mighty confusing :mad:

    The US VW 5cyl is strictly an inline 5, like the 80's Audi 5000.

    However, VW also sold a VR5 in europe in the late 90's, basically a VR6 minus one cylinder.

    The VR5 sounds sweet, like a cross between a 350z and an Audi quattro rally car :D
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Audi has been (and still is) using longitudinal engines with FWD.

    In fact, someone claimed that Audis had to be RWD, and posted a picture of the engine compartment as proof. He was laughed off the forum.
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    waygrabowwaygrabow Member Posts: 214
    I own an Explorer with the 4.0 SOHC V6 engine. Before I bought the Explorer, I read a magazine review which critcized the harsh noise of this engine under heavy acceleration; so I knew what I was getting. Today that Explorer has 105,000 miles and is running very well. The engine has been almost flawless. Gas mileage has been in the 17 to 19 mpg range (unless towing). If I had it to do all over again, I would make the same choice. So what if it makes noise when I floor the gas pedal; in every other aspect it has given great service. Besides, I view the Explorer as a truck, not some luxury sedan.
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    targettuningtargettuning Member Posts: 1,371
    It isn't the oil filter or air filter that makes a transverse V-6 a maintainence problem. It is the need to remove the intake manifold to change the rear bank of plugs. My 95 V-6 Stratus is old enough to have a distributor and plug wires too and all these are only accessible with the intake removed. I would imagine newer V-6's have coil on plug type ignition systems but still, as infrequently as newer cars require plug changes someone, sometime is going to have to do it. Additionally, probably certain hoses, sensors, wires, and other things are hidden behind that rear bank of cylinders and present more potential maintainence headaches.
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    elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Changing the spark plugs in my 03 V6 Accord is described in the "owners manual", and is far from a major operation. There is a world of difference between a 95 Stratus and an 03 Accord's V6 engines. I don't anticipate a lot of problems with it. Even changing the timing belt (at 105k miles) doesn't look like a major problem, and I will be doing that myself also.
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    hp6130hp6130 Member Posts: 49
    We are in the market for a new car. I am letting my wife make the final decision since she will be driving it 95% of the time. We have looked at 4 cars,(all 4cyl.) 09 Sonata GLS, 08 Accord EX-L, 08 Nissan Altima 2.5 s and 09 Camry XLE. Of the 4 only the Sonata has been eliminated. I feel there are pro's and con's to each car, but one thing, like Mack says, they are definetly getting cheaper , especially with the interiors. We are Camry people, my wife is currently driving an 03 XLE, this is our 3rd. camry. But Mack I agree with you, our 94 le, was in a class by itself, our 98 le was ugly and used cheap materials, (but gave us 100,000 trouble free miles) our current 03 is somewhere in between, I'd give it 8.5 on a scale of 10. We are not real impressed with the 09, but each of our 4cyl Camry's has given us trouble free service. Mack, you tell it like it is, what kind of feedback are you getting from your current Camry customers? Are they satisfied? We have numbers on each car except the Camry. This is a question for isell, on the 4 cyl. Accord w/ 190 hp. are you customers complaining about the mileage they are getting? Isell, we have an offer on the new Accord EX-L for $400 over invoice ($24063+400=$24643) any car we choose will be a straight sale, no trade. Isell, is this a fair offer? Doc. fee is $50, tags are $150, Pa. sales tax 6%. I plan on getting numbers on the Camry XLE and SE, 4 cyl. tonite. On Mon. my wife will drive all 3 cars again, right now it looks like the camry and accord are running neck and neck, w/ the altima a close second. What sucks for me is, I know the salesman and mgrs. at all 3 dealerships,I have helped family and friends purchase several cars at all three dealerships, 2 altima's, 2 tsx, 1 s2000, 2 accord and 2 camry, 1 rav4. Mack and Isell, opinions please. This is my first post, hope it's not to long.
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    targettuningtargettuning Member Posts: 1,371
    I'm sure that there is a "world of difference" but doesn't the Honda have its plugs on the rear bank covered or impeded by the intake manifold? If not it will be the first transverse V-6 I am aware of that doesn't.....OK I forgot the Vulcan 3.0 liter Ford V-6 had the plugs in the relative open. Even though they were accessible it was difficult to bend your wrists at the angles required to remove or install them and God help you if one was "stuck". Further, just because you may be mechanically handy doesn't mean everybody is and for them (myself included) changing the plugs on an engine with one of those "impeded" designs means paying someone else to do it. In an I-4, as I'm sure you know, changing plugs is straightforward and I would do it myself. I don't do timing belts either... :) By the way that "old world" 2.5 V-6 in my Stratus has 202,456 miles with only a timing belt and water pump changed (the original was on it when changed at around 186,000 miles). It still runs pretty well for a technological antique. ;)
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    targettuningtargettuning Member Posts: 1,371
    Why have you eliminated the Sonata pretty much out of hand, it is at least equal to the others for less money. If money doesn't mean anything to you then consider the warranty (and no it won't be needed any more than the others, maybe less). If the long warranty doesn't mean anything to you consider the impressive amount of standard features the Sonata has that is either optional or N/A on the others. If none of this means anything to you you are probably buying by familiar brand name(Toyota) without much regard for a new and different brand, Hyundai. However, it seems clear to me from your history with Camry that you are probably only going through the motions of evaluating the others. Just go buy another Camry and you will continue to be happy thinking you got the best car for the money. Your message seems aimed to a "Mack" person....I am not he but this is my opinion none the less.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    One thing I'd add is be sure to compare apples to apples. For example, a Sonata GLS is the base trim for that car, comparable to the Accord LX or LX-P. Yet the Sonata was compared to a top-of-the-line Accord EX-L and the top-trim Camry XLE, and the mid-trim Altima 2.5S. I'd prefer the Accord and maybe even the Camry under those circumstances too! To be fair, cars with comparable trims should be compared, so in this case, the Sonata Limited, which like the Accord EX-L has leather and moonroof, should be compared. And the Camry XLE with leather and Altima 2.5SL with leather. Or else compare the base trims, e.g. Sonata GLS to the Accord LX (or Sonata GLS with the power seat package vs. the Accord LX-P if you want a power seat), vs. the Camry CE (or maybe the LE, and be sure to add VSC which Accord and Sonata have standard) and Altima 2.5 or 2.5S (which don't have ESC available!).

    Also, if you drove the Sonata GLS with no options, try one with the option package that adds power driver's seat, leather wheel with audio controls, woodgrain trim, trip computer, and a few other niceties. Those features add a lot to the car IMO for not a lot more money.
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    patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Hi, welcome to CarSpace! You've obviously done some reading around here which is great. However, I don't think either mackabee or isellhondas participate in this discussion.

    Here you will find owners of several of the cars in this class who can give you their feedback. Hope you will continue to participate and take advantage of that. We have some very helpful members.

    :)
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    elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I'm sure that there is a "world of difference" but doesn't the Honda have its plugs on the rear bank covered or impeded by the intake manifold? If not it will be the first transverse V-6 I am aware of that doesn't.....OK I forgot the Vulcan 3.0 liter Ford V-6 had the plugs in the relative open.

    The spark plug tubes go down through the the valve covers (typical for Honda engines, 4 and 6 cylinder). I could probably do it in half an hour if the gaps are already set. I always buy a service manual for each vehicle I own. You can learn a lot about the workings of your car by doing your own maintenance. Not to mention the loads of cash saved in the process. :D The money I save on maintenance alone, will easily pay the extra cost of the V6 over the I4. My father taught me not to pay someone else to do what I can do myself. Thanks Dad! ;)
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    hp6130hp6130 Member Posts: 49
    I wanted to look at a GLS Limited, but could not find one after checking several dealerships. My sister , brother and niece all drive Sonata's, 2 07's and one 08. I was the one who insisted my wife look at a Sonata and we were lucky to find a Toyota\Hyundai dealership together and get a good comparison. She just did not like the car.I know Hyundai is a great value and they are coming on strong. I feel they are the Toyota and Honda of 25 yrs. ago. I know their resale value sucks, but that did not concern me because I'll drive this car after she is done w/ it in 4 or 5 yrs. When we looked at the Altima, we only looked at the ones with sunroof, leather etc. I wanted them to be as similar as possible. I just returned from the Toyota dealership w/ a price on a XLE but I guess that should get posted under prices paid. Thank-you
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The 2009 Sonatas are just now getting to dealers in volume. If it's been a little while since you last checked on a Limited, perhaps a local dealer has one now. Depends on how quickly you need a car. The GLS looks a lot more "plain" than the Limited, or the other cars you looked at such as Accord and Altima decked out in leather.
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    busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Thought I would add my observations...

    I purchased an 08 Atlima 2.5SL loaded in January after doing some of the same searching that you are in the process of doing.

    I drove a Honda Accord and I felt that the ride was a little bit harsh, but that's just my take on it. No question about it, Honda has an excellent reputation and makes great cars.

    I drove a Toyota Camry and felt the ride was a bit "mushy", I also did quite a bit of reading on the Internet about transmission issues that Toyota has been having in the late model Camry and engine oil "sludge" issues in other recent models. While I feel that these issues probably relate to a small number of owners, I just didn't feel comfortable with them. By the way, my daughter has an 04 Corolla and has had a great experience with it, with no problems, which also weighed in on my decision.

    I test drove the Altima, and I thought it was the right car for me. I really like the CVT transmission, but a lot of people don't, so I guess it all comes down to the "touchy-feely" thing.

    So far, I have been pleased with the Altima. I get better than 25 MPG in town, which is slightly better than the 05 Chevy Aveo it replaced. Not enought highway miles to get an accurate reading on highway MPG yet.

    Good luck in your selection!
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    targettuningtargettuning Member Posts: 1,371
    Oh, I used to do all the maintainence years ago, back when the world AND cars were simpler. That plus I am older now and much busier so rather than get into something that would put my car out of service for X number of days because I didn't have the time to finish what I had started or more likely, because I broke some bolt or stripped its threads and in the interest of lower blood pressure (I tend to frustrate easily and throw tools around) I now pay for repairs including oil changes. ;) The Stratus is a 24 valve V-6 also and has its plugs in deepwell tubes in the center of the valve covers as well but the trouble is I cannot even see the rear bank due to the intake manifold being "folded" over to the rear probably because of the low hood line.
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    targettuningtargettuning Member Posts: 1,371
    It seems that Nissan is the carrier of the CVT banner, much like Subaru is the auto industry AWD leader (across the line). So, I have been following this type transmission with interest and have even rented a Dodge Caliber with one. My experience with it is probably much like everyone elses who drives one for the first time.....strange!! It took a while but I sorta got used to the way it operates. I also note that according to professional automobile tests the Nissan Altima (in the recent C@D mainstream family sedan with I-4) got the best fuel economy AND had the best measured performance. My question to those who have one of these is: do you feel the CVT improves both fuel economy and performance? In my experience with the Caliber it seemed the engine "hung" at high RPM for an unusually long time during acceleration and during "downshifts" (even though there was no traditional downshift) such as hill climbing. I know this is normal operation for these but in my old school mind the longer an engine remains at higher than necessary RPM's the more gas it uses but apparently this isn't true. Comments?
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    bwiabwia Member Posts: 2,913
    As one poster wrote you are already committed to the Camry anyway and you are merely going through a perfunctory exercise by pretending to consider other name plates.

    Curiously you omitted the domestics: the Fusion and the new 2008 Malibu from consideration. The Malibu 2LT or LTZ are the comparable trim levels to the XLE. I have not had any experience with the Fusion but I can tell you that the Malibu is an exceptional automobile for the price. My wife shopped the Volvo S60, SAAB and the Acura TSX along with the Camry and Honda. As soon as she saw and test drove all versions of the Malibu she was hooked….and I am sure you wife will too.

    In terms of quality, the Chevy Malibu has leaped-frogged the competition. The fit and finish, quality of materials, ergonomics, NHV, and handling is best in class. The problem Chevy has is to change the perception of consumers. Many people associate Chevy and other GM products with staid styling and poor quality. But that is no longer true, the challenge is to convince them and GM has done it with the Malibu.
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    raduilieraduilie Member Posts: 10
    About Malibu: The problem actually is finding one right now, if you want to buy in the near future. I bought an Accord this week and I DID want to look at the Malibu. But after checking the online inventories I noticed that the dealers had between 3 and 7 of them on the lot. While the Honda and Toyota dealers had in excess of 200 Accords or Camrys. Which means that 1) very small chance of finding the exact color/features I want and 2) no reason for dealer to offer discounts.
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    hackdhackd Member Posts: 65
    You seriously should become a Hyundai salesperson. I guess anybody who purchases a non-Hyundai car is not open minded and is making a bad decision. I drove the Sonata and thought it was a decent car but liked the interior and ride of other cars much more. I have owned Fords all of my life and went with a Subaru which I never owned so I guess your theory is not valid. It is one thing to push people to try the car you drive because you enjoy it and it is another thing to be condesending to people who did nothing to justify that kind of reaction.
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    In terms of quality, the Chevy Malibu has leaped-frogged the competition. The fit and finish, quality of materials, ergonomics, NHV, and handling is best in class.

    I don't agree with that. The car is just ok. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

    As one poster wrote you are already committed to the Camry anyway and you are merely going through a perfunctory exercise by pretending to consider other name plates.

    This is real world shopping. Not everybody shops a car same as you and since it's his money he is certainly entitled to shop the way he pleases.
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    targettuningtargettuning Member Posts: 1,371
    Nope it is your (and their) money and the fact that I have owned two Hyundai products (although none at the moment) and our son and daughter both own them has shown me that they are cars to be seriously considered. I like them very much and I guess it is human nature to suggest (strongly) a product that has been very reliable (and all the rest) to anyone who is in the market especially if that person is buying a nameplate or emblem on the front as opposed to really considering the competition. Conversely, I bought a Honda (a highly regarded "nameplate") in 2006 that didn't meet my expectations and now I will "tell it like it is" much to the dismay of Honda lovers who frequent this site. Condesending or just enthuiastic, who knows? And since I am nearing retirement age maybe that Hyundai salesman suggestion isn't such a bad idea!!! ;) Thanks!!!
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Conversely, I bought a Honda in 2006 that didn't meet my expectations and now I will "tell it like it is" much to the dismay of Honda lovers who frequent this site.

    Righto, and when Hyundai products don't meet expectations and people "tell it like it is'" they are being closeminded. :surprise
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    targettuningtargettuning Member Posts: 1,371
    The never ending game of one-up-man-ship continues and the ball is in your court...no surprise there.
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Pong. Ball is in your court. Just pointing out the truth as you are.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    In terms of quality, the Chevy Malibu has leaped-frogged the competition. The fit and finish, quality of materials, ergonomics, NHV, and handling is best in class.

    Leapfrogged? More like "caught up." For example, in the recent comparo by C/D, here's how the Malibu LT fared:

    * Fit and finish: Behind Accord, tied with Altima, Sonata, Camry, and Fusion.
    * Quality of materials: There was no category for this, as it is typically considered part of "fit and finish." See above. But C/D's comments were mixed in the review, praising the quality of the aluminum trim on the dash and the headliner, but criticizing the "clammy plastic steering wheel" and the "alloy" wheels that were actually plastic-covered steel.
    * Ergonomics: Tied with Accord, Altima, Sonata, Camry; ahead of Fusion and Avenger.
    * NHV (aka NVH): Behind Accord and Camry. Tied with Altima, Sonata; ahead of Fusion and Avenger.
    * Handling: Behind Accord and Altima. Tied with Fusion. Ahead of Sonata, Camry, and Avenger.

    So Malibu is not "best in class" in any of these areas, according to C/D at least, except tied with several others on ergonomics. But based on C/D's review, I think it can be said that the Malibu has leapfrogged its U.S. competition, e.g. Fusion and Avenger.
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    autokritikerautokritiker Member Posts: 65
    Just my 2 cents, I think you've been very helpful in here. You noticed that a car shopper had dismissed a make/model, without giving any details as to why. You asked some valid questions, and got that poster to reveal the fact that he had looked at a base version of the "dismissed model" while looking at mid- and upper-level versions of the other makes/models. The exchange between you and that poster was 100% civilized and respectful. There was absolutely no need for any finger-pointing by anybody. All it has done is add negativity and hostility to the atmosphere.

    I think most of the cars in this discussion are very close in terms of overall quality, performance, and reliability. It mostly comes down to styling, and whether one prefers a firmer/sportier ride versus a soft/cushiony ride. Examples: many people like the Camry for it's soft ride and user-friendly interior, many people like the styling of the Altima, Fusion, Sonata, etc, many people prefer the handling of the 6, Altima, Accord...
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    raduilieraduilie Member Posts: 10
    In terms of quality, the Chevy Malibu has leaped-frogged the competition

    You mean it leap-frogged the previous generation of Malibu, right?
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    patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Actually, I think the first time poster was specifically considering two vehicles and found a discussion that featured both in which he could request feedback on each. I really don't think it's necessary to jump on him for not considering every other car in this class.
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    targettuningtargettuning Member Posts: 1,371
    Thank You...
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    targettuningtargettuning Member Posts: 1,371
    As you have no doubt found time and again people tend to interject their personal bias or likes and dislikes in these discussions. Personally speaking it is difficult for me to refrain from being very positive about Hyundai and if that makes me biased (and it does) so be it. Likewise, I have had less than good luck with our first Honda product and that tends to make me ahh...negative. I guess I should bow out of some conversations but again human nature being what it is. I never could shut up, that is what my wife tells me..
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Personally speaking it is difficult for me to refrain from being very positive about Hyundai and if that makes me biased (and it does) so be it. Likewise, I have had less than good luck with our first Honda product and that tends to make me ahh...negative

    Every manufacturer has a dud or two, there isn't one of the face of the planet that is immune. Not Honda, not Lexus, not Ford, not Porsche, not Mazda, not Infiniti, especially not Hyundai and Kia. So in the same vein you have a bias, you can expect everyone to have their bias.
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    hackdhackd Member Posts: 65
    "Just go buy another Camry and you will continue to be happy thinking you got the best car for the money"

    So you find this quote respectful?

    I actually agree with the second part of your post. It is probably why making a car buying decision was so difficult for me. Each car seemed to have many positives based on a different criterias but none seemed to be perfect.
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    autokritikerautokritiker Member Posts: 65
    [[[ "Just go buy another Camry and you will continue to be happy thinking you got the best car for the money"

    So you find this quote respectful? ]]]

    I guess not everybody gets offended easily. Seeing hp6130's entire response to targettuning, you will notice there is not one expression from hp6130 showing that he was offended by targettunning's reply to his post. He said nothing along the lines of "yes I'll spend my money however I choose to" or "I just don't want a Sonata and don't need to give you an explanation as to why."

    Some other people in here decided to create an unnecessary arguement on his behalf. He's a grown man and he can state whatever opinions or objections he has, on his own, without others fabricating objections for him to a reply that was __ directed specifically to him __.

    He did, however, state that he was interested in looking at a Sonata Limited, and that none were available at the Toyota/Hyundai dealer he was at. He also stated the Sonata's lower resale value wasn't a problem for him, because they would keep the car for several years. He also mentioned that he was the one who insisted that his wife look at the Sonata, but it was going to be her car and ultimately her decision.

    Maybe it miffs some of you that he actually LIKES the Sonata? In any case, this whole stirring-of-the-pot event was just unnecessary.
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    busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    I have an 08 2.5 Altima CVT, and I agree that it does have a learning curve. To me, it seems that you have to be much more aware of the accelerator pedal. By that, I mean that you can do quite a bit of manipulation with the transmission using a very small pressure change on the gas pedal.

    At first, I saw the higher rpm you described, but after a few days, I learned that, after the initial forward movement in acceleration, you can "ease off" the accelerator pedal and the rpm will drop to around 1500 but the CVT really engages, almost like upshifting to a higher gear without the physical sensation you would get from a regular automatic transmission (sorry about the long sentence...).

    What causes me a little confusion is swapping from the Altima to my BMW Z4 or my S-10 pickup (both traditional style automatics). If you attempt to drive them like the Altima, you accelerate initially, ease off the gas pedal, but unlike the Altima, where the CVT really engages and you accelerate, you just slow down in the Z4 and S-10.

    As for gas mileage, my Altima replaced a Chevy Aveo. The Aveo, at best, got 25 MPG city, whereas the Altima consistantly gets 27 MPG city. The true test would obviously be to compare 2 identical cars, 1 with CVT and the other with a traditional automatic, but that isn't an option.

    So, I guess that I would say that I think you can get better MPG with a CVT, once you learn how to use it efficiently. However, I have seen some disappointed postings on the Altima site by a few owners unhappy with the MPG. Personally, I can see how that could be, if those folks attempt to drive the CVT like a regular automatic. After all, you noticed a higher rpm tendency in your test drive.

    I think you have to remember that the CVT is an infinitely variable transmission that has different characteristics than a 4, 5, 6 or even a 20 speed automatic. It has "slip"designed into it, so as to maximize the engine's power curve at every stage. I read somewhere that Nissan has over 300 algorithms programmed into its CVT to maximize this ability.

    My guess is that, if you had 2 identical cars with the only difference being 1 with a regular automatic and the other with a CVT, and you put them side by side on a quarter mile track, the CVT would probably win the race....but, that's just a guess. If it didn't, I would think the programmers did not do their job incorrectly.
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    hp6130hp6130 Member Posts: 49
    Had my wife take an extended drive in an 09 camry xle tonite. We plan on doing the same with the accord and altima tomorrow. I told her this would not be easy. No I haven't looked at any domestics, I have pretty much been an import buyer since 79 when I bought my first new car, a 79 Datsun 510. After buying our first camry in 94, we did not look at anything else when we replaced it 98 and then replaced that camry in 03. They have just been solid performers. So it was hard to consider anything else when replacing them. I am sure others out there would say the same about honda, nissan, ford etc. But I wanted her to drive the bigger accord, altima and sonata. This is a tough car market segment, all the manufacturers have made big strides, toyota and honda have owned this segment for years, and I just wanted her to experience other options. I have not even driven any of the cars, this is her decision, she will be driving it, but I know one thing, their are things I like and dislike about every car. I do appreciate all opinions, and I will keep everyone posted. thanks
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    jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    My father taught me not to pay someone else to do what I can do myself. Thanks Dad!

    My father taught me that money is to be used to pay others to do things that I don't want to do. Thanks dad! :P :)

    The money I save on maintenance alone, will easily pay the extra cost of the V6 over the I4.

    The money I saved by getting the I4 over the V6 (lower purchase price and gas savings) will easily pay the extra cost of having someone else do maintenance. :D
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    My father taught me that money is to be used to pay others to do things that I don't want to do. Thanks dad! :P :)

    My father taught me to use your time in such a way it earns you the most money. If I have to pay people to do things that would decrease my earning power if I did them, so be it. Thanks Dad! :)
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    elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    From the prices I see people paying for regular maintenance, I'm way ahead. And I know it takes more time to drive to the shop, wait for them to perform the maintenance, then drive home, than it does to simply do it myself. If someone doesn't want to do their own maintenance, for whatever reason, I can accept that. But it will be hard to convince me you're saving time, or money that way.
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    aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Ok, I went to the NY Auto Show yesterday. I happened to look at most everything that was possible. Here are my thoughts on the mid-sizers out there that have been remodeled, or freshened up since 2007.

    Accord: Really good materials, and good build quality of the interior. Better then the previous gen. I happened to gravitate to the coupe, because it was smaller. I think the sedan is too big for me. I also did not like the arrangement of the center stack of buttons. Exterior I could care less about.

    Camry: I really like the outside style of the CE package (sport) I really think it's sharp. The interior, however, does not fit the sporty outside. It's very blah! The HVAC controls were very loose, and felt cheaply made. Overall build quality was pretty good. Not as good as the Honda Accord.

    Altima: The exterior is still growing on me, but ,I think the front end is cheesy. I like the rear fascia and tail pipes. The interior is leaps and bounds over the previous Altima as far as materials and build quality. Controls are well placed and easy to figure out. They are probably the easiest of the group. The styling of the interior, however, is not very exciting. Again, I think Nissan did the same thing Toyota did with the Camry.

    Sonata: I must say, I was impressed with the interior. Good choice of materials. I do like the center controls. They seem easy to use. I do think they copied Lexus from the RX, but, that really does not matter. I can see where Hyundai is trying to go with the Sonata, and I think it's working. I really think the exterior is boring, and very generic, circa 2003-2007 Honda Accord.

    TSX: I know there is a lot of chatter about the ugly exterior, and Saturnesqe look, however, in person, it does look a lot better, I mean a LOT! The interior is very similar to the new Accord. They had the car locked, so, I could not sit in it. I really don't think Acura did enough to "advance" (hehehe) the TSX to be considered a real player in the entry lux segment, or to separate themselves from Honda. Overall, I do believe it is a dissapointment.

    Audi A4: This car was on a giant turn table, so, once again, I could not sit in one. The exterior is down right B-E-A-UTIFUL! Probably one of the sharpest looking cars in the mid sized segment. The size seems to be the same as the out going A4, which is a bit of a problem, because the back seat is tiny.

    Malibu: Vast improvement over the 2007 Malibu. It's like night and day.I really believe GM is waking up and they are starting to build better vehicles. I think the front end is down right ugly, as well as the rear. The side profile is quite nice looking. Built quality is a major improvement. It's better then the Fusion/Milan. Very similar quality to the Toyota Camry, just a shade lower then Sonata and far behind Accord.

    Pontiac G8: Exterior styling, A+, interior design and build quality C-. Typical Pontiac interior. I just don't get it. GM is trying to improve their image, and start to do so with the Malibu, and then they go and throw a crap interior in the G8. :confuse: I really do not think the G8 will do so well.

    Just my .02, for what it's worth.
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    patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Great post! :)
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    And I know it takes more time to drive to the shop, wait for them to perform the maintenance, then drive home, than it does to simply do it myself.

    That may be true for you, but not everyone. For example, here's what it costs me in time and money for an oil change:

    Time to drive to shop (dealer): 2 minutes (assuming I'm coming from the health club that I go to that is 1 mile away from the dealer, which normally is the case).

    Time to check car in at dealer: About 5 minutes.

    Time spent at dealer doing work (checking email using their free Wi-Fi, etc.): 15-20 minutes. Unproductive time: 0.

    Time spent picking up car: 5 minutes.

    Time spent driving home (differential from a normal trip): 0.

    Total unproductive time spent: 12 minutes.

    Cost of oil change: $0. (free oil changes for life on 2 of my 3 cars; on the other, my son pays for the twice-yearly oil changes, about $50 total, and it's his time taken. Two of these are mid-sized cars, the other is a minivan.)

    For the bigger services, e.g. 30k or 60k maintenance, which occur roughly every 3 years, I drop the car off at the shop and they either drive me home or give me a free rental for the day.

    And I don't need to mess with disposing of waste oil and used filters (for oil changes), or cleanup. Plus I never really enjoyed changing the oil on my cars in a cold garage in the middle of winter, back when I did it myself as I had more time on my hands (Before Kids).

    This doesn't reflect everyone's experiences with their mid-sized car maintenance of course, but shows what is possible for those of us who decide to let others do the maintenance. Which I think helps when a car is under warranty (two of my cars are still under warranty): if there's any problem, we all know that the maintenance was done, and who did it. ;)
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    busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Just read an article in today's paper about the new Pontiac G8 GT. Overall it was favorable, with great front seating, but I was surprised to find that no NAV system is available, and no satellite radio will be available unlate late in the year.

    For a $30 K automobile, it would appear that GM is attempting to target a specific section of the market, although it beats me as to what it might be.

    Also, the article quoted Bob Lutz, saying "As good as a BMW 5 Series for $20, 000 less". While I am sure it is $20 K less, this car is nothing like a BMW 5 series. I think Bob needs to get out a little bit more and see the competition.

    I am not specifically anti-GM (although I have have some bad experiences with GM vehicles, as well as other manufacturer's cars), but I must say that I really don't understand their logic. If you want to see an example of what I mean, check out the Edmunds forums on the new 08 Saturn Sky Red Line model. A fellow in my neighborhood recently bought one and told me about the following scenario...

    Seems that you need to let the car run for 1-2 minutes before driving (if the car has not been running for 2 or more hours), so that the brakes will engage....assuming you wish to have brakes. GM says that this is normal for this model and no modifications are required.

    I found this difficult to believe, so I went to the NHTSA web site and confirmed that several complaints have been posted on this issue.

    Why would GM think folks spending high $30's to low $40's on a vehicle would accept this?

    To me, it defies explanation. Reminds me of Ford and the Pinto gas tank issues in the 1960's.
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    elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    For the bigger services, e.g. 30k or 60k maintenance, which occur roughly every 3 years, I drop the car off at the shop and they either drive me home or give me a free rental for the day.

    Is this service free too? When they decide it's time to change the brake fluid, does it only cost you a bottle of fluid? How much will it cost to change the coolant, or the brake pads, belts and hoses? I think you are paying plenty for that so called free rental. :surprise: I enjoy working on my own car, and teaching my son how to do the same. I also know the job was done right, and not by some rookie tech who's only been working at the dealership for a month, and couldn't care less about my car.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    No, changing the brake fluid etc. are not free services. I didn't say or imply they were free. I do pay for the major services, e.g. 30k and 60k, about once every 3 years per car as I said. These include some simple things like new spark plugs (actually, that's not so simple on my minivan, as I found out), and not so simple things like tranny flushes and timing belt replacements.

    That's great that you enjoy working on your car and have the time to do it. I used to do all the basic maintenance on my cars for many years, but then found that I'd rather spend my Saturdays at my kid's ballgames or camping with the Scout Troop or helping my elderly mother or doing yard work or any of the other things I don't get a chance to do during the workweek. So I "outsourced" the maintenance of my cars to others. There is a certain value I place on the time I would spend on car maintenance, and I found I'd rather "spend" that time doing other things, things I couldn't outsource to others (well, yard work I could, but I like spending time outdoors). That was my choice, and it works for me. Your choice works for you. I was just trying to offer another perspective on the subject.
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