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BTW, I read a few posts on the Escape/Tribute Problems board (900+ posts), and just didn't have the heart to continue. I stand corrected - the tranny is not their biggest concern. Dead engines are.
I'm sure the AWD sensors send an electrical signal, which you could override manually with a switch.
Ideally, you'd leave the sensor functioning, so you still had automatic engagement when needed.
-juice
I like Beatfarmer's suggestion that his friend in the Jeep landed on that rock. So I'll just write a big happy "LOL" to that first.
Dudka has interesting idea with regard to force feeding pressure to the RTWD system. That would incorporate many of the existing parts, without adding too many mechanical complications (and cost).
Juice is correct about the binding issue, though. RT4WD is not designed to be in operation on dry pavement. Basically, it's just like a traditional 4X4 system except that it engages and (just as importantly) disengages automatically. The fact that the connection between front and rear is based on wet clutch packs might allow for some slippage. This could/might/possibly soften the blow of a binding problem, but I'm just guessing here.
I disagree with the Juicer about the over heating issue, though. My understanding of the potential overheating problem is that it's related to the frequent engaging and disengaging of the system. When the clutch packs keep coming into contact with each other over and over again, they'll build up heat. If the packs are locked together, there's no heat build up.
If I were to make a suggestion to Honda, it would be to make a locking feature such as the MDX. One that automatically disengages after reaching a certain speed.
Regarding the Forester. Juice, I can't believe you didn't mention this. Soob has two systems; one of the automatic and another for the manual. At the wheels, only the manual is permanently locked at a 50/50 split. The automatic is 50/50 in lower gears, but then fades to FWD dominance with only 10% of the torque going to the rear. Did I get that right?
You're pretty much right on as far as the Subie AWD systems go. I drive a manual so I was talking about mine.
It starts at 50/50 and lets the center viscous coupling lock up when needed to send more power to either axle. Nice thing is, it's much less likely to break traction given all four tires are being used in the first place.
The autos have various sensors that measure things like throttle position, steering, and even hill grades to pro-actively adjust the distribution of power (it doesn't wait for slippage to occur). Plus, each axle never gets less than 10% of the power.
I believe the RAV4, Highlander, and Sante Fe use systems similar to the Forester w/manual. The CR-V's is closer in concept to the Escape's.
Ray: I'm not sure I'd call a transverse engine complicated, just less direct. A longitudinal layout allows a straight driveshaft to both axles, i.e. parallel to the crankshaft vs. perpendicular.
-juice
The only thing that occurs with the CRV is that when the front wheels slip, power is sent to the rear. So where's the binding?
Bob
-juice
Bob, pay attention to the current thread. There will be a quiz later.
Binding occurs with traditional part-time 4WD because there is no other differential to compensate for the outside front tires different turning arc. The wider arc of the outside front tires—and turning at the same speed of the inside front tires with a narrower arc—causes the binding in a tight turn.
Even if you bypass the the AWD, the front wheels will still have that (FWD) differential that allows the front wheels to turn without binding.
Am I missing something here?
Bob
Remember, the reason a traditional 4x4 can't be driven on dry pavement is the lack of center diff. Full time 4wd (AWD) requires a center diff to prevent binding.
For example, from a standstill, and turning, the front wheels will take a wider arc than the rears (unless you have a 4 wheel steering Prelude), so the front axle would turn slightly quicker than the rear axle.
Many 4x4s, most actually, have open diffs front and rear, and lock the center diff when engaged. You're only supposed to do that on slippery surfaces, else the axles try to spin at different speeds and can't.
Usually the tires scrub off the difference, which is much easier on a slippery surface. On dry you have what they call "binding". It's pretty nasty. My college roommate had a Montero that once in a while refused to get out of 4WD, and on dry surfaces in turns it was a bizarre feeling.
-juice
Bob - I suspect the binding you describe is only a problem for vehicles armed with "lockers". When taking a tight turn, the front tires on any car take a different/longer path than the rear tires. Therefore they travel at different speeds (just enough to make RT4WD begin to engage, BTW). I think that this is the binding that we have a problem with since the front and rear are connected.
Take for example Jeep's part-time Command-Trac. There is no front locker, but it's a part-time system that shouldn't be driven on hard pavement, because you will get binding in the steering.
On the other hand, Jeep's full-time Selec-Trac, which has a full-time (and part-time) mode has a center dif (in full-time mode) that allows for the different arc involved in the steering, thus no binding when the front wheels are turned.
Bob
In that case you need REALLY slippery turf or things will get ugly.
It's funny, though, because in a way these work against you in the snow - they force wheels to slip (a little) in turns, because the wheels will turn at the exact same speed no matter what. That's why they are designed for off road duty. The advantage is that they can withstand a lot more torque that way.
Subarus are really designed for slippery pavement. That's fine - it snows far more often than I can make it off-road, despite me being in the tiny percentage that does venture off the pavement.
-juice
In post #1663, you were wondering about the side to side interaction on the FWD CR-V. As noted by Beatfarmer and Juice before me (talk about redundant), the problem with a CR-V binding is a front to back issue. This is due to the fact that it lacks a center differential (between the front and rear axles).
In post #1666, I remarked that the side to side binding that you've described is a problem for vehicles with lockers. I was trying to convey that the CR-V's problem is not the same.
Both Jeep examples that you've described in post #1668 are cases of front to back binding (like the CR-V). Command-Trac has the problem, but Select-Trac does not. They are not examples of side to side binding (like a truck with lockers).
Furthermore... Boy, I'm really getting on the soap box now... It would be better to differentiate between the two types of binding. With lockers, we have a "binding in the steering" (that's what it feels like anyway). When the vehicle lacks a center differential, we have a "binding in the drivetrain". I hope that doesn't just confuse the issue even more.
Okay, as long as we're this far off topic... What are "air lockers"? Most lockers are engaged manually. I've always assumed that air lockers are your basic mechanical design, but they have an air powered system that can engage them from inside the cab. That sounds almost silly, but it's my best guess. Where's Nanuq when you need him?
I've driven Command Trac in 4WD on hard pavement, just to test it. I've always felt the binding through the steering, or so I thought, hence my train of thinking. I never considered that the front axles and the rear axles actually travel in different arcs through corners, which obviously they do.
It does make sense however, if you have a "central" dif between the front and rear axles that compensates for the binding, that it's a front-to-rear issue, not side-to-side issue as I had thought.
Thanks for the clarification. See, even geezers can be educated
Bob
It was strange. The tires would squeel and chirp in turns, even going slow. They were scrubbing off speed, acting as a "differential", if you will.
After a while the tires were so abused that they told people NOT to use 4WD, because so many people forgot to disengage it after the mud hill. It had so much clearance and traction with its knobby tires that it got by in 2WD anyway.
-juice
Bob
It's FRIDAY! :-)
-juice
In that case you need REALLY slippery turf or things will get ugly."
Then why do performance cars have lockers? Detroit Lockers were standard on Mustangs, for one.
I don't recall them ever flipping over. Not once have they woken up in the morning, gone out to the driveway and yelled back "Honey, the Jeep flipped again!"
What give with people thinking cars flip?
Drew
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Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
sasquatch- cars don't flip. SUVs don't flip either. Their drivers flip them.
Thanks in advance for your help.
Albckrstff - Generally, I don't recommend an extended warranty. The CR-V has been rated as the most reliable car on the US market. While it's not impossible for something serious to go wrong, it just isn't likely.
The items listed in that extra package can be purchased through on-line sources; typically for less than what the dealers are asking. Installing the sport trim and front mud guards couldn't be easier. I can understand if the roof rack isn't a job that you'd want to tackle, but even that really isn't all that difficult.
Actually, things like the mud guards, cargo net, and other simple accessories can be won at CR-V meets. I just won a cargo mat ($70 value) at the Mid Atlantic Meet earlier this Summer.
As for the price: Most folks are getting CR-Vs for about the invoice price +/- a few hundred dollars.
Originally it was 90/10, as you mentioned. I did hear somewhere (Patti?) that it was 80/20, but I'm not sure that is correct either. This is the first time I've heard 70/30. If this is indeed true, what models years did it begin?
BTW, I'll post this question over in the Subie area too. Maybe we can get some offical clairifcation on this from Pattie.
Bob
Drew
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Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
Bob
Drew
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Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
Zigster - You don't mean the pics of the HR-V, do you? That's a completely different car.
Bob
http://www.honda.co.uk/new.html
Or, if you wish to see a good picture of the 5-door model, I suggest that you bop on down to your local Barnes & Noble bookstore, go to to the magazine area, and—in the July issue of CAR magazine (from the UK), and on pages 108-109, you will find a double-page ad on the new 5-door HR-V.
I think it's a neat looking vehicle, and I hope the new CR-V looks half as good as this vehicle does. The front of the HR-V (and the Acura MDX too) both slightly remind me of amphibious automobiles and amphibious landing craft in their general shape, IMO.
Bob
Now, I may have to disagree with varmit on the dealer add-ons. I looked up prices on the rack, flaps, and side trim at handa-accessories.com, added the invoice price listed for an '01 SE here on Edmunds, and came up with a total of approximately $21758. Did your dealer also give you a price on just the car without the extras?
On the surface, your dealer's quote seems competitive, plus you can roll the cost of the accessories into your monthly payments if you are financing, and you won't need to bother with installing the stuff yourself.
Possible downsides: If your dealer's price for the SE (no add-ons) was maybe $400 less than invoice (or lower), then ordering online begins to make sense again. You also may be able to avoid sales tax (but pay shipping) on the add-ons.
In any case, the important thing is that you end up happy with your car.
HR-V five door
Aussie HR-V
Slugline - Holy smokes! A dealer that is selling optional equipment for the same or better prizes than the E-market! I stand corrected. Al, if you've stumbled onto a dealer like that, then take advantage of it while you can.
Bob
I think it could happen.
Bob