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To whom would YOU sell Rover, Volvo, Jaguar?
Mr_Shiftright
Member Posts: 64,481
It's a badly-kept secret that Ford is itching to unload Volvo, Jaguar and Rover.
Problem is, even Ford isn't sure who it wants to sell these entities to. Jaguar and Rover are quite inter-related and share a lot of resources, but Volvo is pretty independent.
If you were in charge, to whom would you sell each of these three prestige brands? Other automakers? An outside investment group? Domestic or overseas? Would you sell them all to one buyer (unlikely but hey, you're in charge!) or group them or parcel them out?
What seems logical and smart to you?
MrShiftright
Visiting Host
Problem is, even Ford isn't sure who it wants to sell these entities to. Jaguar and Rover are quite inter-related and share a lot of resources, but Volvo is pretty independent.
If you were in charge, to whom would you sell each of these three prestige brands? Other automakers? An outside investment group? Domestic or overseas? Would you sell them all to one buyer (unlikely but hey, you're in charge!) or group them or parcel them out?
What seems logical and smart to you?
MrShiftright
Visiting Host
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Sell the other two to Hyundai, they seem like they could use a luxury marque or two and Land Rover offroad knowledge could be helpful.
When Ford pledged its assets as collateral for that huge loan, it included Volvo among those assets. Land Rover and Jaguar were not included.
Just Visiting
Land Rover and Volvo worked together to make the engine and some of the platform. The platform of the LR2 is partially shared with the new S80 and will be mostly shared with the upcoming XC60 SUV. The LR2/Freelander 2 is being built at Halewood a Jaguar factory.
Jag and Land Rover are even more heavily integrated. You CANNOT sell one with out the other.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Ford europe is profitable and so is Ford in most of the rest of the world. Volvo makes money along with Land Rover. Their share in Mazda makes them a little money too. It is just Jaguar and the US for division that is in trouble.
Give up on domestic built Fords except for their Trucks and maybe the mustang plus one midsized sedan. Toss lincoln/mercury and the rest of Ford cars in the trash. Then either spin Jag off or use the money saved from dumping your losing domestic operations to finally fix it.
Just Visiting.
Why can't FoMoCo take Jaguar, Land Rover, and Volvo, create a new entity entitled whatever they like ("Premier Automotive Group" sounds good though) and then hire an investment bank to do an IPO. Ford could retain, say, 30 or 40% ownership in the new company, while selling off the other 60-70% to either wall street or private equity. That way, Ford could raise cash to help with product development across the board and limit its Jaguar liability while still having access to Volvo/Land Rover platforms, profits, and know-how albeit on a smaller scale.
That's my favorite option; If Ford does decide to sell something outright, it should be Jaguar/Land Rover. Both brands are heavily integrated, and although Volvo is integrated with Land Rover, it is not integrated with Jaguar and the Land Rover/Volvo relationship could be easily unwound over time, with Volvo getting it's 3.2L engine back, and Land Rover getting it's Freelander 2/LR2 platform back. (along the lines of BMW/Land Rover a few years ago with the development of the Range Rover)
Volvo should be kept at all costs; it has been highly profitable over the years and Ford could benefit (and is benefiting) from the safety technology that Volvo has.
Land Rover should be kept also, but since it is integrated with Jaguar, Ford would be wise to just let go.
Any opinions on that IPO I mentioned above?
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Without Volvo, I'm guessing the crowd that would buy shares would probably be the private equity crowd anyways, so why not limit them to only 60-70% of the new company?
i think its the best option.
why sell 2 of your brands that are actually making money?? Kind of reminds me of watching the Phillies growing up. It got to the point where we'd see a good new player on the team and say, "yeah, they'll sell him soon." It seems that some companies just don't want to win.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Obviously the domestic auto industry is more addicted to incentives then we ever thought.
I think Ford could be surprised if they marketed a Jag SUV based off the Volvo XC90 or even better the upcoming XC50 platform. I know it sounds redundant but think of it this way: call it an "T-type" for "Terrain" or something, make it about the size of an X3, five seater with reflexes of the Infiniti FX. Give it the corporate 3.5l duratec, and maybe an optional diesel like the one being developed for the next F-series. Throw everything but the kitchen sink at it, Bluetooth, ESP, RSC, Sat. Navigation, etc. Then maybe a Yamaha V8 "R" version down the road. Give it a 5/60 comprehensive warranty, all maintainence included and the overseas delivery like Volvo offers.
I don't know, sounds crazy but I think with proper updates every 2 years like the Germans, it could be a cash cow for Ford. At least bring in some kind of cash for future investments...
Just an idea.
People were up in arms when jag got a rebadged mondeo for the X-type with a corporate ford V6. Imagine how mad they would be if you gave Jag a SUV, something that was never supposed to happen, and then it was just a re-badged Volvo with another corporate Ford V6 engine.
Bad, bad, bad idea.
Oh and European delivery doesn't work for Jag or Land Rover because they are made in England. All kinds of liability associated with Americans unfamiliar with driving on left side of the road anyway then also driving a LHD vehicle.
But the X-type, I don't think it was a flop because it was not a "Real Jag". Hell, I remember the mags were raving about it when it was announced, and I don't remember any criticisms about using Ford underpinnings. The Mondeo was and still is a well respected sedan that had the unfortunate "dumbing down" syndrome when it came to the states as the Contour/Mystake. Plus the car was just plain dorky looking....
But the X-type seemed to have the opportunity to succeed under the same formula. I thought it was overpriced when it came out sure, but I drove a 3.0 back to back with a 328i and the car was well mannered. Only thing "too Ford" in it was the interior and switch gear. It was just too easy to pick it apart. But the S-type had that same issue as well...
I guess if Ford didn't meddle in the design and build of a new Jag SUV, it could have a chance. I know it would NEVER happen though.
Had they gone the way of Porsche, they could have had sports cars and the lux image in one basket.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
I don't think Porsche even knows Jaguar exists, or cares. Not their competition.
Jaguar competes with Benz and Lexus and perhaps Acura. I don't think BMW buyers and Jaguar buyers cross-shop all that much (just a guess).
I certainly wouldn't want to compete with Acura, Benz and Lexus. Talk about a tough neighborhood.
but it seemed you were saying jag, back when they WERE making sportscars, should have followed porsche and continued on that path instead of turning to sedans. yet I now see porsche kind of taking that route. you would THINK porsche won't turn their backs on the sportscars .... BUT ... I might have thought the same thing of jag if I had been around during their heyday.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
That might explain the low mileages on Jaguars. How far is the mall? Or can a Jaguar actually attain high mileage?
RE: Jaguar's Path:
Yes, I think Jaguar should have stuck to sports cars like Porsche did. Porsche STILL doesn't build a sedan after all. I think Porsche thought longterm and Jaguar short-term. Porsche went "niche" at high profit per unit, Jaguar went mass-market at low or no profit per unit sedan.
I mean, we are talking about a company that used to win LeMans when Corvette or Porsche couldn't.
The aluminum bodied XJs and XKs can get outstanding mileage when they have a chance to stretch their legs. I am sure they could do better with a more advanced engine. The AJV8 is a bit long in the tooth now.
If Ford does sell them they better retain a 20 or 30 percent interest in Jag/LR. If they don't they will truly be sorry.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Man that is a stunning car.
Visiting Host
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
The XK was never really a sports car though. A sporty GT sure but never a sports car. Even the XKR is just a very, sporty GT but again not a sports car. It needs a manual for that and a bit more edge.
Now a XKRR would be the ticket but that got killed last time around. Jag doesn't have the time or cash to do it now. Maybe another owner would help that situation.
XKRR Top gear
I know one idea that was kicked around at Jag was this...
With the demise of the X-type a smaller much more sporty coupe and roadster could be built. Platform was unknown maybe a new one maybe an older one with lots more aluminum to save weight. The engine though ohh the engine was brilliant IMO.
Take the new Volvo straight six, which can be mounted longitudinally, and put that in the coupe/roadster. Basically you get a modern E-type but take the styling in a different direction.
The Volvo version of this engine makes 235 hp and 236 torque with a fairly fat power band.
Slap some turbos on it and it makes 281 hp and 295 torque. Tell me that wouldn't make a hot, hot car.
So how do you feel about a Russian or Indian Jag?
Oh, there's Rover rumors too - Shanghai Auto, Nanjing Auto To Merge. Nanjing recently signed an agreement with the family of Donald Healey that could see the resurrection of the Austin-Healey nameplate on future sports cars.
That way, Ford reaps all the benefit (selling surplus parts) while taking no risk (they don't have to worry about unloading the vehicles).
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
There is a lot more integration between those three units with Ford then Aston Martin had.
Fiat not interested in Jaguar, Land Rover (Reuters)
You can tell us. :shades:
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Then again my contacts might not even know who the purchaser is either.
The thing is because of this pending sale almost everything is on hold. Land Rover is not offering any new programs for their cars. They are scaling back production and therefore our allocation and objectives are shrinking. It is like the whole company is on pause for 6-8 weeks.
I know Volvo is starting to go through the same thing and I am sure Jaguar is too.
I can't name a certain company, so I'm going to say Asia. And that includes India. How say you?
Here's one link to help refresh your memory on potential bidders.
I think Nasser/One Equity Partners wants it the most and Nasser would be tapped to run it. He's as big a cost cutter as Nardelli at Chrysler (and about as well liked). Nasser and Ghosn are good friends so there could be a Nissan/Renault tie in there somehow too (Nissan bowed out of the bidding early).
Another fun wrinkle is that former Treasury Secretary Rubin quit the Ford board last year since Rubin is a big uppity up at Citibank, and he knew there would be a conflict of interest. (link). Citibank is financing Tata on their bid.
they're playing an expensive game of monopoly. If they pick up all 3 of these together, they can start building hotels.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Now how about this: Would selling these iconic British brands to foreign interests kill their customer base?
Land Rover will be okay. They're famous for treking in the African safari (and american shopping malls). But Jaguar is definitely known to be a "British" car. Even though owned by Ford, they were still built in Britain. Would a foreign buyer still keep the British factories?