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The issue is the ability of the AWD to provide full benefits in everyday ON-ROAD use.
The CR-V's systems is adequate and effective for many ON-ROAD uses and provides an extra measure of traction over 2WD vehicles.
The RAV-4 and the Subaru (more so) have systems that are MORE effective for ON-ROAD traction in many conditions as they are full time AWD. Often, reviews of Subarus will praise the very noticeable sure-footed traction of the car in just regular rain, never mind snow. That is a real AWD system at work ON-ROAD. Reviews of CRV's say that the RT4WD system is nice to have if you are going to get stuck. You do not get the same level of confidence with a CRV ON-ROAD as you do with a Subaru.
You have to weigh how important that fact is to your application along witht the 1000 other things when considering a vehicle purchase. It can be of real consequence and should not be ignored.
A poster on this board noted how he test drove both the 2002 CRV and 2002 Forester in Snow & Ice ON-ROAD and found the Subaru to provide noticeably better traction. This was important enough in their decision making process and shows that the two systems are not equal for ON-ROAD everyday use.
Again, we are NOT talking about taking the CR-V or any other car based SUV off-road. Please be clear about that.
Having said all of that, the X-Trail seems to provide the best of all worlds (except that it is not a Honda, if that matters)
Let me guess: You own a Subaru?
Canadatwo - FYI. They didn't mention any 0-100 KM tests. They mentioned a "street start" which typically means a rolling start. In the US, these are conducted from 5-60 mph. This cannot be compared to a 0-60 number which allows for high revving, tire smoking launches.
Re AWD: Adequate is a FWD with a decent set of tires. Even without RT4WD, many CR-V owners report good performance both off-road (go to the CR-V IX and read about Gator Greg's adventures with Real Time Front Wheel Drive) and in bad weather. Since the CR-V's stock tires are just your average all-season tire, we have to assume that the long wheel base, wide stance, and suspension provide some degree of stability in slick conditions. (I'm talking 1st gen CR-V here.) Adding RT4WD to the mix gives you added security, but you still have to go slow and pay attention.
A great deal of fuss is made on these boards about the merits of AWD vs automatically engaged 4WD, but in "day to day" driving both systems are as necessary as that 8 track player your brother is keeping (just in case there is a sudden shortage of Barry Manilow music on disk).
Since this is a written discussion board all we can do is make paper comparisons. In a paper comparison it's easy to find quirks, kinks, and potential flaws in most any design. Proving that they make a difference in more than 0.0000001% of the accidents in the real world is another story.
Don't get me wrong, I believe that AWD is superior for getting power to the wheels, but, in the real world, there are extremely few times when it would be needed.
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CR has the Odyssey as "average" in predicted reliability, with the MDX a bit better. I have faith that Honda will iron out whatever issues there are.
Check out the new C&D, the Liberty and Freelander V6 automatics did not manage to break the 10 second mark to reach 60mph. That's slower than the auto Forester in that Lilliputian test, but about the same as the last CR-V. They haven't tested a 2002 auto CR-V, but I bet it outruns both of those V6s.
-juice
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Anybody bought Honda Care? For how much? I recalled scname posted "Offered $795 for the 7 year Honda warranty, dealer want 995 but sounds like 895 is his bottom line." Is that 7/100k? I cannot even find a dealer offer even at $995.
jfavour, congratulation too!!!
No, just providing useful information to help suv-shoppers make an informed choice. Again, each individual's needs are unique when it comes to a vehicle choice. Downplaying a difference as "inconsequential" is often a generalization that only applies to YOUR specific situation and decision criteria.
As well, confusing & clouding the issues outside the scope of the discussion (ie OFF/ON-ROAD use) can also be misleading.
I do NOT own a Subaru as I do not find the current Forester attractive enough for my tastes. This may change with the 2003 Forester.
I am also hoping Nissan brings the X-Trail to NA soon.
I find the Rav-4 is too "cute" & quirky looking.
The part-time automatic 4WD systems in the CRV, Vue, Escape etc do not provide the level of *constant* traction & confidence I *feel* I require for *my* driving situation.
I owned an Escape (gone now) and was very dissapointed with its 4WD system in both "Auto" and "On" modes. It's "On" mode should not be confused with the full-time electronic AWD systems in the Subaru or X-Trail. The Escape's 4WD actually hindered day to day driving on slippery roads. It mainly helped me climb steep short snowy hills and such.
And don't forget, tires can be the most important factor in winter driving, enough so that a front-drive car with good winter tires will outperfrom a 4WD SUV with poor all-seasons.
For snow & ice covered roads, AWD can make a big difference in day to day driving. We get 3-5 months of bad conditions up here every year. The CR-V's system is effective to help you get out of slippery situations such as snowed in steep driveways and city streets. At highway speed, the AWD system in the Subaru will show its further superiority. Of course, AWD will not help you stop any faster and tire choice/condition can be critical.
This is based on actual experience of many people including myself. It is not merely a "paper" exercise.
Just because we do not have "% of accidents saved" information does not negate or lessen our opinions.
You are correct in reminding us to go slow & pay attention in adverse conditions. Many people suggest that a full time AWD system such as the Subaru or X-trail will allow you to drive with greater confidence or an increase safety margin.
&
"The part-time automatic 4WD systems in the CRV, Vue, Escape etc do not provide the level of *constant* traction & confidence I *feel* I require for *my* driving situation.
So, which is it you're trying to get at here? What's best for you, or what's best for others?
You've called a "generalization" the positive remarks regarding first-hand experience of one CR-Ver here, in his own "house".
If you want to nitpick for your own personal vehicle, fine. I don't blame you. Go for it. But to come into someone else's "house" and to put down their choice (and their first-hand experiences on what works just fine for them) is a bit much.
Good luck with your X-Trail if it comes available here, or whatever you choose. May it suit you well.
Bailie - I often cross post information both here and at the CR-V IX as well. I even drop in at the less popular SUV.com site from time to time. There are people who frequent one forum, but not the other. (Sorry, I have not experience with Canadian pricing.)
Canadatwo - Explain how a full-time AWD is different from part-time 4X4 when the 4X4 is engaged. Power is going to both axles. Unless you add a limited slip diff or lockers to the equation, they're doing the same thing.
It has been tested and demonstrated that the Forester handles better on a slippery slalom course. But then the Forester simply handles better. It may have nothing to do with the AWD. It's difficult to say how much of the advantage comes from the AWD or how much comes from the different tires, lower CG, or suspension tuning. Essentially, you have to take a CR-V and give it AWD or equip a Forester with RT4WD before you could say that the systems alone provides the advantage.
Why not give us some examples of when an AWD drive vehicle will have an advantage. Don't just list how deep the snow gets, tell us what happens when a tire slips. Describe for us what would happen in an AWD vehicle vs. what would happen in an automatically engaging 4X4 system.
Seriously, I've had this debate at least sixteen times. Read all four volumes of the CR-V vs. Forester thread going back to 1999. Juice can attest to how often we've discussed it and how little success there has been in establishing the significance of the AWD advantage.
As for generalizing... well, yes, I guess that's true. I'd rather do that than repeat this post every week when someone brings up the differences between the two systems. I typically sum it with a statement like this. If you're going to drive to work everyday over a frozen lake, buy the AWD. If not, RT4WD will do fine.
BTW, four tires coasting have "traction". AWD cannot increase traction, only changing the tires can. It's a common mistake to say that one or the other provides better traction. These systems merely distribute power to the tires in an attempt to provide forward movement if the tire has traction.
Many prospective CRV buyers come to this board asking how the CRV compares to other mini-utes, often asking specifics about the 4WD system. They can decide for themselves whether they require the extra cpabilities of the full-time AWD systems or not.
Its 4WD system, while effective for many uses, is not at effective as the Subaru's or X-Trail's is at maintaining traction through adverse conditions.
A full-time AWD has several benefits over the "automatic" 4WD system in the CRV, Escape, Vue etc. This has been demonstrated many times.
It's disadvantages is higher fuel use on average.
Again, we are talking ON-ROAD day to day driving here.
The CRV et al first has to spin its front tires before RTFWD kicks in. The Subaru & X-Trail transfer torque smoothly between fron and back as required at all times. Much more effective.
I think juice and I are among the few long-standing Subie owners who frequent this forum. I certainly see and understand the RT4WD perspective. As Varmit and others have pointed out, they're both good systems. Even so, I still prefer the Subie solution a bit better. For me it's a combination of the AWD, and the low center of gravity of the boxer engine which helps afford the "sportier" handling. Plus Subaru is starting to make a big push towards making "sporty" products, including SUVs. I've always been a big fan of Saabs and Volvos for that very reason: they do an excellent job of combining "utility" with "sportieness." Subaru seems to be heading in that same direction—and they're affordable.
Bob
Bob
"The 2002 CR-V's carpeted cargo area is wider and deeper than the previous model's. A low loading height of 685 mm (27 in.) and a wide rear opening of 1143 mm (45 in.) makes it easier to lift in heavy, bulky objects. The cargo floor is 0.9 metres (3.0 ft.) long to the back of the rear seats, and with the rear seats tumbled forwards, the cargo area is 1422 mm (56 in.) in length..."
Here's the whole story Canadian Driver
Bob - The CR-V can be towed on all fours (like behind an RV). There are instruction in the owner's manual, but I don't have it handy. However, I believe two wheel towing is a problem.
FWIW, the AJAC (Auto Journalists Association of Canada) gave their top SUV slot to the new Jeep.
I'd like some opinions from all you experts out there.
I just purchased a brand new 2001 CR-V LE (SE in US) which I like everything about it so far EXCEPT driving it.
Few days ago I posted a message complaining about streering wheel vibration. Someone suggested that I should check the tire pressure, and it should not be set too high. Acutally, they were originally set to 26PSI when I first picked up the car, and I set them to 28PSI for better fuel consumption just like many people do. I did feel the vibration in either case.
Now my complains & observations are :
* Streering wheel vibration - it's felt worst around 80Kph, seems worse going up hill, the vibration isn't so noticeable beyond 110kph
* Noise - I was told that CR-V is noisy. But frankly I did not expected it to be this bad. I understand engine & tire noise due to lack of sound proofing. However, there seems to be some noise coming from wheel(s), not tires, probably from bearings. When the vehicle reaches around 100+ kph, the streering vibrartion is less noticeable like I mentioned above, but there's some other noise that developes as the vibration fades away, the noise getting worse at higher speed. I originally thought this noise was engine noise, but I'm just under 3000rpms cruising on highway, and I reach that point many times in city driving and never noticed any engine noise that bothered me. This noise is very low frequnency noise
I'm no longer suspecting wheel balancing problem. I'm suspecting something else, such as Wheel Bearings, CV joint, or transmission.
I'll definitely take it to the dealer and have them look at it. The problem is I usually don't trust these mechanics. They are the ones supposedly already checked everything (as part of Pre-Delivery Inspection) before the delivery. If the experts don't see the problem and I do, what's up with that?
So far my CR-V has been a big disappointment. Any help would be greatly appreciated..
Conix
Only problem with new CR-V seems to be price (in Canada). Up about 8%. Too much.
Why did canucks get leather and external temp. guage and yanks didn't? This seems like odd marketing.
Conix: older model CR-V is noisy, but almost bulletproof. You must have got an (unusual) lemmon regarding vibs. Take it back. Mechanic at Honda siad it is the only vehicle he never fixes! New CR-V is much quieter than 91 model - too bad. When you kick the old one, she barks. New one just motors on out.
Canadian Auto Journalists chose Liberty as new SUV of the year, eh? I wonder if that was before or after the Escape-like recalls.
BTW, priced new CR-V versus Vue. Vue is expensive at upper end (also lacks leather), plus depreciation will probably be bad. Despite CR-V price increase, is it a better buy? Best in small SUV?
Meanwhile, if your RT4WD CR-V needs to be towed because of accident or breakdown, it must be on a flatbed towtruck. Keep in mind that the RT4WD hydraulics are active any time the CR-V's wheels are spinning, even when the engine is off.
Good luck with sorting out your vibration problem. Doesn't sound normal.
So I picked up 2001 model. I have a couple of friends who bought them (CR-Vs) in the first model year, and they both love it, which was the reason that motivated us to shop for CR-V. I just hope that the problem is something minor, not mechanical. The wheel balancing problem alone can cause all the problems I'm experiencing, and I'm hoping for this to be the case.
I told my salesman 2-3 times and specifically asked him to make sure that I don't have either WHEEL BALANCING problem or ALIGNMENT problem when I receive the car. If it turns out to be wheel balancing problem, well, what should I do to him?
I live 30Km away from the dealer, and my workplace is even farther. I did this on purpose, because my wife's work is near that dealer, and I did not expected to go back to the dealer for service this early..
That noise doesn't sound like "normal" CR-V noise. Unfortunately, there are a number of things that it could be. Some CR-V IX members posted a problem with a "buzzy vibration" at specific rpms. You can read about it here. And these are the alignment specs for the CR-V if you want to check on those. Now, if you were experiencing a "clunking" sound from the front of the car, I would recommend that you check out this, but that fix hasn't been needed in quite some time.
Apparently many CRVers and Subie fans here seem to welcome the comparison, otherwise the discussions wouldn't be occurring.
I believe the reason there are so many Subie posts here are do to the fact that: A) Subies and CRVs are often cross-shopped, and some of us Subie owners enjoy the discussions here, and have stuck around. I participate on a regular basis in several forums, in which I don't own that type of vehicle in which the topic is about.
Bob
I believe the CD's "street start" is what a typical driver would do to get a 0-60 time, as opposed to the normal 0-60 testing where the engine is reved and then the clutch is popped.
This would account for the more "real world" type figures (around 10 sec) as opposed to the posted 0-60 times of Car & Driver etc of about 8.5 sec.
I got the Satin Silver. But...I would have gotten the red if it came with the black interior instead of the tan (ewww!)
I am looking for a small sport ute to replace my sedan, and I don't really need the toughness or heaviness of a Jeep Liberty. I would prefer something like the 2002 CRV with its decent gas milage, better on-road manners, and good build quality. It will be interesting to see what the next Suzuki Vitara/Chevy Tracker will be like and also the new Forester. Thanks.
No he/she never contacted me about the qoute. mine is from a finance manager from a dealership in vermont, the qoute is for 2001 cr-v se for $730 with $50 deductible for 7 year/100 000 mile coverage. you can call town and country honda in berlin vt, at 802-223-9700, and ask to speak with Chip Worthen. Tell him that David Budek told you to give him a call about the honda care warranty. hopefully he will remeber who i am, :-) he will fedex you the papers to sign, and will charge your credit card, and you will get the paperwork from honda finance directly in about a month or so.
http://www.ptcruiserusa.com/hondasuv/crvix/roadtrips.htm
From personal experience the CR-V does just fine off road, assuming you're not taking it boulder crawling. I've driven my '99 CR-V EX 5spd through fields, dirt roads, gravel roads, snow mobile trails (covered with snow), and a healthy dose of mud and shallow streams. The earlier CR-Vs had a front skid plate available as an accessory, I don't know about the 2002. The muffler and rear differential are not protected on the earlier CR-Vs, again I don't know about the 2002.
Good luck!
Remember me. I now have about 7000 miles on my Liberty. It's been in the shop a total of 4 times for the same problem, vibration in the steering wheel. Please read previous messages for details. There is still a vibration in the steering wheel at highway speeds. It is mild, but I can see my hand vibrating when I put my hand on the steering wheel. Also, I have noticed that the engine has missed a couple times. I can't duplicate the problem though. Actually, this morning, I was almost in an accident. It was not raining, but had been a little bit. I was pulling onto an onramp, going about 15 miles per hour and I started skidding. I left off the gas and the brake and it slid for a little bit and came to a stop. I was on a hill. I gave it a little gas and it spun up the hill. It was a very close call, lots of cars behind me. And yet another problem. The lights on my dash board (mileage reading and radio) get really bright and then go dim really fast when I have the lights on. Very strange stuff. I am scared of my Liberty. I do not feel safe in it after all the problems I've had with it. Still debating on doing the Lemon Law.
But, I am not very happy with two things:
1. I have to twist my wrist to start the car.
2. The head-liner feels like sand paper. I brought it back to the dealer and let them take a look at it. They were surprised. For all the 2001 CR-V owners out there, what does your CRV's head-liner feel like?
Thanks for any info regarding the head-liner.
Invoice (dealer cost as they call it) on the '02 EX auto non-leather is $27,176 not including PDI & freight.
Now please bear in mind that I believe "dealer cost" has factored in the holdback which has been the subject of some debate as to whether or not should be added back to determine "invoice". In other words, should the dealer be entitled to not pass on the holdback to the customer?