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'69 GTX and '66 Satellite converts - record prices?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=300145154171&- - ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=020
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=300141437353&- - ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=020
These cars were recently on ebay - and, in the case of the '69 has been relisted. These cars look beautiful to be sure. But, don't the asking prices seem "a tad" high to anyone else? These cars aren't 4-speed hemis and Elvis didn't sweat on them. Yes, I know they're in great condition and I know restoration work isn't cheap. I used to think prices like this were obscene, but nothing surprises me anymore.
What do you guys think about these asking prices?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=300141437353&- - ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=020
These cars were recently on ebay - and, in the case of the '69 has been relisted. These cars look beautiful to be sure. But, don't the asking prices seem "a tad" high to anyone else? These cars aren't 4-speed hemis and Elvis didn't sweat on them. Yes, I know they're in great condition and I know restoration work isn't cheap. I used to think prices like this were obscene, but nothing surprises me anymore.
What do you guys think about these asking prices?
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I have no idea on fair pricing. They both seem high to me, but you never know. Espcially with '68-70 Mopar musclecars, which seem to be pretty "in" right now. That '66 Satellite is a brick in comparison. I dunno how popular they are.
Consumer Reports tested a '69 Roadrunner with the 375 hp 440. They hated it with a passion, so you KNOW it has to be good! :P
Calling it a "distinguished" motor car made me laugh out loud, since it's really just a taxi cab with two doors and a roof that goes down.
The '66 Satellite seems overpriced by about $8K to $10K. Again, calling it "undervalued" made me laugh. Well, gee, not once YOU buy it---LOL!
The seller is "pushing the market" and trying to get some hysteria going, as if the muscle car market will just keep going up and up forever. He might get away with it on the GTX but he won't on the Satellite, (I'd be very surprised) especially with the 361 engine. Were it a 383/ 325HP / 4-speed, he could breach $30K on it.
Of course, the very VERY best cars will hold value longer, even in a market drop; also, having a 4-speed and a Hemi engine makes a lot of difference in pricing these cars.
Galen Govier, by the way, is the alleged recognized expert in authentication. He flies around the country and spends a lot of time evaluating each car. He charges a couple thousand bucks per car, goes over them very carefully, and his certificate is worth a lot in terms of assuring the buyer. So one has to factor his certificate as worth thousands of dollars in itself, over and above an unauthenticated car. Personally, I find his occupation risky.
With an asking price of $58K, this one is certainly more in line with Mr. Shiftright's market observations. Perhaps this one isn't quite as nice as the green one, but it looks plenty nice for me.
I don't know enough about Mopar products to even be dangerous. However, I thought the motor on that that '66 Satellite had to be at least a 383 before it earned the "Commando" moniker.
On Sunday, I'm going to the big Kruse auction in Auburn, IN. You'll know if I see one of these beauties if the headline in your local paper on Monday reads, "Man Drools To Death".
Don't worry Parm, I don't exactly have it all memorized either, and have to refer to my old car book regularly. :P
Anyway, as far as big-block engine go, here's what it lists for the 1966 lineup...
361-2bbl: 265 hp, optional in the Belvedere/Satellite (next step up from the 318 I guess)
383: 325 hp. 4-bbl, I'm guessing, as a 2-bbl would probably have more like 290-305 hp. Optional in the midsized and full-sized cars
426: The Hemi, 425 hp. Optional, supposedly, in any Belvedere/Satellite except for the wagon. Did any of these actually end up in 4-door sedans, though? :confuse:
440: 365 hp. Most likely a 4-bbl, as I think the multiple carbs were more like 390. Optional on full-sized cars, but not on midsized cars this year. In my book, the GTX first shows up as a 1967 model, and that's when the 440 was first offered in the midsize, standard on the GTX, but not available in any other midsizes. Guess they were trying to force you into the Hemi? Or seduce you into a Coronet R/T (where it was standard) or Charger (optional)?
Photo 10 is taken from behind the car, yet only the passenger seat can be seen. In that, the driver's seat sits down too low to show up. Photo 31 confirms that the driver's seat back is angled back more - which, in all likelihood probably results in a more comfortable seating position.
But, here's my point. This car seems to be so perfect in almost every other respect that it's rather mind blowing to me that the restorer would make such a glaring mistake. But, then again, Mopar's are not my forte at all. Perhaps this quirky seat thing is common to the breed?
As for other things I'm finding? Well, the seat coverings in general don't look like they fit very well. It almost looks like someone put a new covering down over the old material. I know workmanship could be sloppy back then but c'mon, it wasn't THAT sloppy!
Also, I'm sure its going to get points deducted for the speakers in the back seat (photo 36 and others). And it's missing a trim piece on the driver's door panel, as evidenced by the hole just behind the remote mirror adjust (photo 38). The vinyl door inserts also look a little ragged at the bottom, and the metal part of the door looks like it has signs of water leakage (also 38). Something about the steering wheel was bothering me too, and I couldn't quite place my finger on it. It just looked familiar, somehow. Then it hit me...that's the same steering wheel they used in a 1969 Dodge Dart GT! I guess it's possible, though unlikely, that Plymouth and Dodge would use the same steering wheel design, but I doubt if they'd use the same logo! (photo 31).
I also just noticed that this car doesn't appear to have a tach. The GTX was supposed to be a top-of-the-line musclecar, and fairly well optioned. If you wanted a cheap stripper musclecar you got a Roadrunner, which eschewed such niceties as a tach, bucket seats, center console, extra interior lighting, all that ploodgrain trim, and cool rally wheels or even hubcaps, all in the favor of a low base price. As I recall, you could pay extra for a tach on the Roadrunner, and it was a little afterthought that they stuck on to the right of the temp gauge (you can see the empty spot in photo 31, a blank area with a big + through it). But I thought the GTX had a different instrument display, with two big round dials for the speedo and tach, and then four small ones for gas, oil, temp, and amps?
Maybe that full-gauge display was extra cost even on the GTX in '69? Or it could have been the Dodge Coronet display I'm thinking of?
I suppose he could write disclaimers but if he's issuing a certificate of authenticity....er...how's that defense gonna hold up?
Scares me.
Regardless, I'd be proud to have either one in my garage. The only catch is that I'd first have to sell my house in order to afford the car. Catch 22!
Maybe I was just lucky, but every old Mopar I had with the old-style "V-2" compressor, still worked. These included a '67 Newport, '68 Dart, and '69 Dart. Those things blew nice and cold, too!
Now with the newer style compressor, that's cylinder shaped and more compact, I haven't been as lucky. I've had three 1979 Chryslers and none of them have worked. My '89 Gran Fury worked when I got the car in 1998, but it was losing its cooling power by the time I retired that thing in 2002. Might've just needed a charge, or it could have been something worse. My '88 LeBaron, which I gave to my ex-wife when we divorced, crapped out around 1997 I think. And even my 2000 Intrepid is starting to lose its cooling power. I first noticed it about a month ago.
I wonder if it's hard to convert one of those old-style V-2 compressor a/c systems to R134A?
Lemko, while it's true that you'd never get your money out of that repair if you tried to sell the car, it was probably still worth it, considering how much you drive that car, and if you plan on keeping it for awhile.
Now if it were me, I would've just let it stay broken. But I'm also down to about 6,000 miles per year in driving, so I'm usually not in a car for that long, anyway. And as long as the windows roll down, I'm usually okay.
Well I think that's just it...we can't just walk into AutoZone and buy the stuff for a buck or two a can like our forefathers did. Sure, mechanics can still get it, I guess if you're licensed. Isn't the stuff something like 90 bucks a pound these days?
"import" being smuggled over the border !
Thankfully I purchased 6 30 lb. canisters several years
back for $99 bucks each before the US ban took effect.
I have 2 bar/rest./motel operations (and cars too)with plenty of r-12 required equipment.
Sure comes in handy and cheap too !
"However, the Montreal Protocol set two schedules for the phase out of ODS—1996 for developed countries and 2010 for developing countries—and unwittingly created a black market in the process. Automobile refrigerants like chlorofluorocarbon 12 (CFC-12), also known as R-12, went from a legal price of $4 per pound to a black market price of $30 a pound in the US."
(spl). RV fridges use it.............
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1966-PLYMOUTH-GTX-440-CONVERTIBLE-440-COMMANDO-EN- GINE_W0QQitemZ160180088284QQihZ006QQcategoryZ6412QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZVi- ewItem
The first link shows a restored '66 Plymouth Satellite convertible in what appears to be very good condition. The second link shows a very similar '66 Satellite, but as a GTX clone.
Which would be the better car to have and are these asking prices any where close to their market value?
More importantly, if the GTX option didn't exist until '67, what does that do to the value of the '66 GTX clone cited in the post above. Admittedly, a clone is a clone - meaning, it's obviously worth less than the real McCoy. But, when no real McCoy existed in the first place, how do you value something like this? What comps would you use?
Anyone who pays more is going to be the first to eat dirt when the muscle car market contracts, which it is already doing. It's gone stagnant, except for lots of cars being shipped overseas.
The asking price for th '66 Satellite is laughable. It's not even listed in most muscle car price guides because it doesn't have a 383 or 426, which everyone wants. AND it's automatic. I'd say it's priced at LEAST $10,000---$12,000 over actual value. It's not even a car many people want and shouldn't be called a "muscle car" at all.
I'm also not familiar with a high performance 361 for 1966, either. For the most part, the 361 never was a high-performance engine. The 1958-60 361-2bbls put out 295 hp, while the 4-bbl was usually good for 305-310. Most powerful 361 was what they offered in the 1958 DeSoto adventurer. Something like 345 with dual quads and 355 with fuel injection. For 1959 though, the 383 and 413 came onto the scene, and they were the main focus for performance. In fact, for 1961, the 361 got downgraded to 265 hp in 2-bbl form, although the 4-bbl stayed with 305-310. My book lists 1962 as the last year for the 361-4bbl, so I'm wondering if that '66 Satellite is just an original 2-bbl with a 4-bbl thrown on? 1966 was the 361's last year, and for 1967 it was replaced by a toned down version of the 383.
There may be a more beautiful '67 GTX on the planet, but I doubt it. Before it sold, this car was listed for $85,000 by a dealer in Ohio - though no idea what the eventual sale price was. The ad says that only 680 of these were built. I didn't realize so few were produced. That would help explain the astronomical asking price. Good Gawd, I think this car is absolutely gorgeous. Makes that red '66 GTX clone in St. Louis (with an asking price in the mid to high twenties) that is practically identical start to look like somewhat of a bargain.
I've never been a huge Mopar fan, but I'm beginning to see the light. Oh, to be able to step back in time to 1967 and walk into a Dodge/Plymouth dealer with $20,000 in your pocket. You'd wind up with a car collection that would even make Craig Jackson jealous.
Yeah, some of them are definitely an acquired taste. I always thought the intermediate Mopars hit their styling peak with the 1968-70 models. In contrast, the '66-67 intermediates look sort of like the box the '68's came in! Still, there's something tough and brutal about the style of the '66-67, like it's all business and no pretense. GM's '66-67 intermediates were much prettier looking, but the Mopars just looked tougher.
The '66-67 Mopar intermediates were pretty well-built, too. There was a definite decline in quality with the '68-70 models. However, as the 60's came to a close and the 70's dawned, that was pretty much an industry-wide trend and really gave new meaning to the old phrase "they don't build 'em the way the used to!"
Some of these guys are fanatics. You wouldn't believe. How about paying $3,500 for a factory new stock set of decals (yes, the tiny ones). Or $20,000 for the correct wheels and bias-ply tires?
One guy spent two years hunting down an original in the box carburetor dash-pot.
On the #1 cars, every nut and bolt, every single piece of the car, down to the last clip and fastener, is not only restored, but restored in the proper finish. Factory paint and chalk marks are duplicated, and even the splash and drip marks done hastily in the factory are duplicated. All new glass is etched and date-coded. Sometimes 4 or 5 parts cars are purchased, just to find some heater ducting that is date-code correct. Some guys spend over 4,000 man-hours and 8 to 10 years restoring a car.
One guy spent $3,000 to have dies made so as to faithfully reproduce some impressions on his interior panels.
The paint jobs, including final finishing, can cost $25,000.
Or to put it another way, if you see it driving down the street, it's not a #1 car.
Sad. All that money and all you've got is a garage/trailer queen! These cars were meant to be driven!
Here's a nice looking '68 Sport Fury convertible listed for $24,900. I don't know what to make of it, because of the 4-speed and the 383 4 bbl. While I know that 4-speeds found their way into some pretty big sized Mopars around this time, weren't they generally more along the lines of a Road Runner, GTX, or any of the other Dodge/Plymouths with more of a performance image?
I suppose it's possible the buyer of this Fury wanted a "go-fast" car. But, I'm more inclined to think this car was configured more as an economy option. The perception was probably that the 4-speed would provide better fuel economy, though I would've thought a smaller engine (was a 2 bbl or a 6-cyl. even an option?) would've been ordered if that were the case. The fact that this car doesn't have power windows, power locks or A/C also leads me to believe that someone wanted a semi boy-racer that was fairly stripped, option-wise. Maybe the buyer was a guy in his early 30's with a wife and kids that needed a grocery getter, but still wanted a rather fun car where he could "stir" the gears.
A Fury just doesn't strike me as a car someone would own as "muscle car" back in the day. Perhaps a dealer would've ordered this to have on his lot? - possibly to move someone up to a higher-optioned Fury?
While some might "yak" over the color combination, I like it. You just don't see this color today. Yeah, yeah, I know there's probably a good reason for that. LOL!
BTW, can any one tell if this car has power steering or power brakes?
I'd imagine that '68 Fury would be pretty quick, especially with the 4-speed, Sure Grip rear, and especially if it has quick gearing. The 383-4bbl is nothing exotic, at least not in a car this size. It would be a decent performer, but in this size class the 375 hp 440 would be the one to have.
As for power brakes, yes it has them...I can see the power booster. I can't tell if it has power steering, though. If it did, the pump would most likely be down on the driver's side of the engine, but in the engine view the battery is blocking that location.
A slant six with 145 hp was standard in the lower-end Fury, with a 230 hp 318-2bbl being optional, then the 383-2bbl, which probably put out around 290 hp by that time. I dunno what was standard in the Sport Fury, though.
While it seems that $20K+ is the price of admission these days for any collector car worth having, the $24,900 asking price for this mildly option example (albeit in pretty good condition) still seems pretty steep to me. I would think that $15K to $18K (perhaps less) would be all the money for this one. But, given that this car is now in the clutches of a dealer (ugh!), this car will likely sit at that price until some unsuspecting buyer with more more than sense comes along - to which the dealer will claim the high sale price as "market value". Well, perhaps. But, a market of "one" is not a market in my book.
From the same dealer that had the Gold '67 GTX convertible, here's a gorgeous '67 Coronet R/T convertible. Alas, this too has also been sold (yeah, like I would've had a chance!). The asking price was $57,900 - Ouch! But, it does have the 440 and had recently received a pretty complete restoration and appears to be well-documented. Obviously, we have no idea what it sold for, but I'm guessing the asking price is pretty close to world record status for a '67 Coronet R/T convertible (non-Hemi flavor).
With a car this nice, I'd be afraid to drive it any where for fear of hurting its condition (which is what drove the price of this thing to the top in the first place) - and that would truly be a shame.
I'll say this, this dealer knows how to find some pretty choice cars.
That's exactly why I'd have zero interest in ever buying a car llike that one. You're hostage to the condition and price of the car. If you drive it, you devalue it, and if you don't drive it it's likely to be a bad investment, particularly after you factor in the opportunity cost of that money. Also, you obviously cannot fully enjoy a car you just look at, but don't drive. I wouldn't begin to get enough enjoyment just looking at a classic in #1 condition to justify the cost of ownership. It makes a lot more sense to do your admiring at car shows, where all you invest is some spare time.
While I'm not knowledgeable or prescient enough to predict what the value of these cars will be in, say, five or ten years, it seems to me that once the demand from the generation who either owned one or lusted for one dries up, the value is likely to decline. There may be some demand from abroad, especially if the dollar continues to weaken, but I wouldn't count on it replacing the demand from North American buyers who remember these cars. Some of the muscle cars currently on the market or registered to car buffs will eventually end up in museums around the world, but that will be a sign that demand is weakening, not strengthening.
Am I missing something?
I don't think you could restore a car like this for $57,000, from a beater.
I'd have to see it, but unless it's a #1++ car, I'd say $45,000 is all the money.
The big danger of course is that someday, perhaps someday soon, someone is going to notice that this is just a Dodge, and adjust values accordingly.
This is a market that could collapse at any time, except for the very rarest, biggest-engined, highly documented, verified, over-restored examples---which will always be a blue chip.
Plymouth kept better track of production back then. In 1967, for example, they sold 1552 Belvedere convertibles, and 2050 Satellites...but, that Satellite total includes the GTX.
In 1968, Plymouth sold 1771 Satellite convertibles, 1523 Sport Satellites, and 1026 GTXes.
Mopar convertibles always were rare compared to their GM competition. For example, in 1967, Pontiac sold 4082 Tempest Custom convertibles, 9820 LeMans convertibles, and 9517 GTO verts
Point is, this is not rare by top-tier muscle car standards. It's rare compared to a Chevelle, of course, but not compared to the really big buck muscle cars.
It's only when you start adding the rare engine options that the numbers drop into that delicious arena of mere tens or under 100 of something.
I don't think I've ever seen a 1967 R/T Hemi---that would be rare!!
Anyway, without documentation one's Hemi-engined car is often regarded as a counterfeit.
Burden of proof is on the owner. Even VIN tags and data plates are suspect.
Again, muscle car prices are all about the engines, not the cars.