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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    I didn't like the bank bailout but you can't equate the bank situation with GM and Chrysler. The banks control all the money and credit; they hold every Americans mortgage, retirement and pension plan; they allow our businesses to grow and are the back bone of our American way of life. Not sure you can compare losing GM and Chrysler to the complete collapse of the banking system. It's not a power struggle. We need our banks. The American car industry has become like the steel industry. We are surviving just fine without Bethlehem steel.

    I like the stance the administration is taking. Personally, I would have told them both no. But I'm not the President who needs to save as many jobs as possible. I'm not worried about his statement to the UAW. Again, he is trying to save as many jobs as possible.

    I agree that i hope GM survives. I What has upset me is the dragging of the feet by GM's management. All they had to do was look at Ford. Ford was on the brink of collapse 2 years ago and now they have a fighting chance if sales pick up. GM should have taken a similar path.

    These are interesting times.
  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    I think they need someone to come in amake some sense of their business model. It doesn't have to be someone with auto experience. They need someone who has been CEO at a large company and can make the cuts necessary so GM cna focus on making good products that sell without $5000 worth of incentives.

    Wait, didn't Ford do this 3 years ago?
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    >What has upset me is the dragging of the feet by GM's management.

    But anytime they need to cut production of a model or close a plant there's the union contract mandating when and how long they have to pay people to work in that plant whether or not it's open. Am I mistaken about the local contracts these days? Did the UAW give up the contractual period so that GM needs to close a plant in Tennessee, they just show up one day and say it's closed today folks. You're out of a job. Or did they have to give notice they might close the plant in two years or something in the negotiations.

    Then there're the bond holders who won't concede more than they've already lost and want the UAW to make more concessions. The UAW is wanting bondholders to lose more money.

    What's amazing is how many people are so hate filled toward the GM workers and even the product.

    The bigger mistake Bo made is they should have announced weeks ago that no matter what happened the government would support the warranties on the cars. Lack of that support stopped many people from buying the cars which has made the problems worse.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    There is no other way. Knew it very, very long ago. Their plan was flawed and there will be 2 marquees left standing when the smoke clears, Period.

    I predicted May 9 a few weeks ago when I suggested a GM BK pool. -- I'm only off by a few weeks. :P
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    The fire sale should be fun to watch, though. Dodge and Jeep are worth something, so I suspect someone with cash will buy them outright. The rest - who cares, honestly.

    The same with GM - Cadillac and a few models like the Corvette will likely go to Honda or Toyota and that'll be that. Or maybe GM will just be Cadillac with 6-10 models. Kind of how Subaru is in the U.S. It's not a big player, but it's still hanging around year after year.

    The thing is, if you take the very best parts of GM and C and put them together without contractual obligations, you probably have a medium-sized, decent American car company around the size of Ford.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    What's amazing is how many people are so hate filled toward the GM workers and even the product.

    I think you are wrong on this. We just disagree about the best solution to the problem.

    Many of us have been harshly critical of GM for many years in these boards. Perhaps it is that we CARE about a healthy US auto industry and it's like we were watching our obese, shiftless, crack-addicted teenage children continue getting F's when they bothered to go to school at all. We've been saying to take the harsh steps NOW for a long time to the existing parents (Wagoner, Gettlefinger). It's been frustrating when very little and slow actions have been taken. It was actually LOVE of the US auto industry that we spend our time here.

    So now they've been put on a rehab program, a crash diet, and have new foster parents. It's about time.

    Gee, now I'm all teary-eyed. :cry: But it had to be done.
  • crestonavecrestonave Member Posts: 209
    As part of the restructuring of GM and Chrysler, does anyone see the possibility of a "fire sale" on existing inventory coming? Wouldn't this force other automakers to aggressively lower prices in order to compete?

    Isn't it amazing how tinkering with the free market always brings about unintended consequences? And how the marketplace always reacts to the tinkering by moving toward a rebalancing?
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    If there is a so-called "fire sale," then that will probably be the first time in recent history that many GM and Chrysler products have truly sold for as little as they are worth. Right now they're not selling because the market thinks they suck. Chrysler and GM are begging because they market decided they suck. So there'd be a fire sale anyway.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    You will see the Cash for Clunkers deal from the Fed in about 2-3 weeks.

    WASHINGTON, March 30 (Reuters) - U.S. Sen. Charles Schumer, a New York Democrat on the Senate's finance and banking committees:
    * Says he wants to quickly move "cash for clunkers" legislation through Congress to help cash-strapped Americans replace inefficient autos.
    * Says he previously sponsored a "cash for clunkers" bill in Senate that would give credit of up to $4,500 to drivers to trade in cars with a fuel economy of 18 miles per gallon or less to buy more efficient ones.

    You get a tax credit already for 2009.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    DETROIT (AP) -- General Motors Corp.'s new chief executive said Tuesday that more of the automaker's plants could close and bankruptcy is "more probable" as GM works to meet new, tougher requirements for government aid. In his first news conference as CEO, Fritz Henderson said he expects the company would "need to take further measures" beyond the five plants the company said it would shutter when it submitted a restructuring plan to the government last month.

    Regards,
    OW
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    The bigger mistake Bo made is they should have announced weeks ago that no matter what happened the government would support the warranties on the cars. Lack of that support stopped many people from buying the cars which has made the problems worse.

    But people have stopped buying industrywide. They would still have been nowhere near the 13 million SAAR they needed to meet the preconditions of their December recovery plan.

    Not to mention, the minute you announce you will be backing the warranties of GM and Chrysler, you as good as say out loud that you don't believe they will make it. That's even worse, isn't it?

    What's amazing is how many people are so hate filled toward the GM workers and even the product.

    People are even more disgusted with Chrysler, I think. Chrysler just doesn't have the sheer size of GM, that's all, so GM catches 90% of the flack. From the few people in my office I have chatted with, I get the sense they are really upset that Chrysler, a privately held company, received taxpayer bailout money. At least with GM you can make the case that if they go under a significant and important portion of the domestic car industry disappears. Not so Chrysler, I think.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Exactly. They look at Ford, which is trying its best to not get in bed with Uncle Sam, because they know full well what a massive can of worms that opens up. It's like if you've ever gotten government assistance after a disaster - the paperwork, the checking, the monitoring, and the rules all are a horrendous burden. And that's not even getting to the level of Congress or other agencies crawling down your neck.

    Ford at least is trying its hardest here. Btw, if you looked at the recent lists of top quality models in the U.S., Ford is actually third place behind Honda and Toyota in the number of models(though GM scores higher, it's only two. Two or three fantastic vehicles don't make a company viable unless you're Bentley or Ferrari or a tiny niche player.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    link title

    :surprise:
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    link title

    In a move sure to spark outrage, the White House announced today that GM and Chrysler must cease participation in NASCAR at the end of the 2009 season if they hope to receive any additional financial aid from the government.

    Is this true? :surprise:
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Given the company’s recent interest in motorsport and the steady cash-flow and V-8 engine provided by its new Genesis sedan, sources indicate that NASCAR is pinging Hyundai to gauge the Korean company’s interest in occupying a spot in NASCAR.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't. They're probably getting a rotten ROI from putting money into NASCAR.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    GM and Chrysler may sponsor teams in NASCAR and factory-backed teams may disappear. It doesn't mean you won't see Chevrolet and Dodge cars in NASCAR races.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Yeah, but as the article (and NASCAR history) points out, what's the difference between a GM and Dodge car and all the other cars, hmm?
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Brands of Chevrolet, Toyota, etc in NASCAR are a joke. Race cars are purpose built, have absolutely no connection to production cars, and visual distinction between brands are front ends that have design cues from production cars. Would guess that Chevrolet, and other brands, supply only engine short blocks to racing teams for their use. With GM now using taxpayer money, and Dodge also, they should do responsible thing and get out of NASCAR. NASCAR can accept this since they have long ago began promoting racing as about the driver celebrity, not the brand name logo on the race car.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I thought all those cars were Tide, M&M, Bounce, McDonald's and Castrol anyway. ;)

    Regards,
    OW
  • smithedsmithed Member Posts: 444
    I happened to be at the local Chevy dealer today (a big one) but was still surprised at the gigantic inventory of new vehicles sitting there: SUVs, pickups, large and midsized sedans. And to top it all off they had a dealer added on sticker today for $995 for a wax job on a sedan. I thought GM was trying to sell cars. Are these people stupid or what? Or more likely, think that customers are stupid? :mad:
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    And to top it all off they had a dealer added on sticker today for $995 for a wax job on a sedan. I thought GM was trying to sell cars. Are these people stupid or what? Or more likely, think that customers are stupid?

    The last time I was at Costco, they had a Malibu sitting out in front. I forget what trim level it was, but it was a 4-cyl, and fairly basic. Even it had an ADMU sticker on it, something like $1000!

    In general, I'm starting to get the attitude that I'll give up my Intrepid when they pry its steering wheel from my cold dead hands. Or if the engine or tranny die. Whichever comes first. :P
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    GM needs to get rid of all of its dealerships. Replace them with Saturn-like setups. No padding, no haggling, just a low price. No inventory, either - you look, you order, they make and ship it to you a few weeks later.

    The cost savings would be immense. Mini does something similar to this - few dealerships and many order-to-build options. Sure, there are a few models on the lot, but almost everyone orders one to their liking and waits for it to arrive. The end result is happier customers, less inventory and overhead, and more control of what the dealerships do.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    That sounds like the typical pop foreign car dealer here. They have all kinds of markups. Sometimes on the sticker, but more likely added on after you think you're going to reach a good negotiated price.

    Did you check to see what discounts and rebates are on the cars? Those don' show up on the sticker. That's a problem with sticker shopping at dealers; some stickers can be shocking while shopping.

    The local Chev dealers don't have ADMs on the cars. I did see a Simonize poster in the showroom, indicating they probably try to justify a large doc charge (can be as high as $250 in Ohio, does not have to be added at all).

    It would be interesting to see what the doc charge would be for that dealer.

    I just ignore those and make my offer. If they don't want to sell they won't give me prices until we can reach an agreement.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Heck, I can do a better job for FREE than those knuckleheads are charging for $995 ADM!
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    The dealers are IDIOTS! That's why the bad ones need to go.

    Regards,
    OW
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    April Fools. Car & Driver has replaced the link with a "gotcha." :shades:
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    That may have some unintended consequences...you think no one in Washington read that and thought forcing GM and Chrysler to drop any NASCAR spending was a good idea?

    Law of unintended consequences...C&D's "joke" may have given the "Auto Czar" a brilliant idea. :shades:
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    "..... Right now they're not selling because the market thinks they suck. Chrysler and GM are begging because they market decided they suck. So there'd be a fire sale anyway."

    So.....7 million people aren't buying cars this year because GM and Chrysler suck?? Toyota's sales are up then??? Nissan??? Honda???
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The only thing that sucks is the economy. Cars have never been this good no matter who builds them. Even the crappiest car now manufactured is better than some of the best 10 - 20 years ago.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    So.....7 million people aren't buying cars this year because GM and Chrysler suck?? Toyota's sales are up then??? Nissan??? Honda???

    GM and Chrysler's sales are down more. They can't sell enough cars to make a profit the way Nissan, Toyota, and Honda can (and Ford did in one quarter last year). They've been losing both sales and market share for years. That's the market deciding they suck.

    Then of course you get into the part where they can't make a profit unless they sell 20M cars per year. That's their management sucking, because they're not planning for a lower market share as they lose market share.

    If they were so wonderful they wouldn't be in the hole they're in now.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Money Musings links to the actual Reuters article, but they have just THE most penetrating analysis:

    "A government with no money is borrowing money to loan to a company with no money, who in turn plans to loan that borrowed money to customers who have — wait for it — no money."

    Gotta love the GM business model there...

    http://www.mdmproofing.com/iym/weblog/2009/04/gmac-resumes-subprime-auto-lending- .html

    Sounds like their plan to prove that they have a viable business model is to give away as much bailout money as possible.
  • bvdj84bvdj84 Member Posts: 1,724
    Well word is, that they are downsizing their whole company. Ridding of some brands they have. Which is good. At first it will kills jobs and the market, but its already bad. In the end it will help them get ahead. If they didn't have so many cars out, than they could get a grasp on the company. Sometimes, you have to start back with pretty much the basics, no frills. I will say that GM is very creative, producing new cars, new ideas. But, that just got way out of hand. Not doing studies on expenses versus the income for the car that they want out. Not every car is going to sell. Every brand has a car that does not sell as good as the rest. But the number of cars in a business that doesn't sell as good is so high in GM. Especially when their are so many duplicate cars. It will finally catch up with you. Every month that car sits, $$ you lose!

    Their are way too many GM cars. At that point, they can't possibly put all their effort into quality and refinement They are capped in quality. Even more so now, I would be concerned about buying a GM car because, they could be skimping out on quality since their is no money to work with.

    I do not want them to fall on their face, but with our without a bad economy right now.... They had this coming, either now or years later... the economy only brought out how weak and unstable the business really is. The economy has put businesses to their peak and to the test. You will find out how strong they really are. This would have happened years later if we were in better shape. You just can't operate frivolously and think success!. Swallow your pride GM, you have asked for help again and agian, now you need to make a big change, seems bad, scary now, but could either make or break you in the future. :)
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Um, what? :confuse: There is no way an Aveo is a better car than a 1989 Corolla or Sentra. It's debateable if a 2009 Aveo is better built than a 1989 Cavalier.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Sounds like their plan to prove that they have a viable business model is to give away as much bailout money as possible.

    No news there...been bleeding money for years...isn't that what a car company is supposed to do?? :cry:

    Regards,
    OW
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    No inventory, either - you look, you order, they make and ship it to you a few weeks later.


    In these desperate times GM should look in to selling cars and trucks and SUV's like this. If it saves money it should be looked at. And they should deliver the rigs to the buying customers, also, IMO.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    That would cut the dealers out of the picture. And while any human being (car dealers are not human, they are undead netherworld creatures, no offense :shades: ) wouldn't mind that, they do have the two most feared weapons in existence: A signed contract and high-priced lawyers.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    nazzle-frazzles, bpizzuti, you would have to mention lawyers, guns and money, the $%^& has hit the fan, wouldn't you? R.I.P Warren Zevon.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    There's no way to verify your claim. There are no surviving 1989 Corollas or Sentras around here to compare to the Aveo. However, I have located a few 1989 Cavaliers. I'd say today's Aveo is better built.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    >2009 Aveo is better built than a 1989 Cavalier.

    Have you driven an Aveo?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    image

    2008 Daewoo Chevy Aveo
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Hey, that IS better than a Cavalier! :shades:
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    My Mom has one. It's not a bad little car. Dirt cheap too!
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Probably not by much... For a 2008 model, results like this are unforgivable. Too bad GM has an Opel compact that would be a huge step up from this miserable little POC, but GM failed to engineer it pass the US crash test standards which is why we are stuck with the Aveo until 2011.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Now imagine the OFC test with a Smart Car!!!!!!!! :surprise:

    Regards,
    OW
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    I read somewhere that a Saturn dealer in charge of a coalition to sell the brand said he found a dealer. I am skeptical to believe it because he didn't name the buyer.
    Anyone heard about this?
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    I've heard the same rumor .. that Saturn has found a company that will supply the dealer network with product once the "agreement" with GM expires in 2011.

    A formal announcement is expected within a few weeks.

    Speculation:

    We know it's not Fiat, as the US Government is wielding the shotgun that will bring Fiat and Chrysler to the altar before the end of the month.

    PSA? I suppose, but could they get their cars federalized in time to go on sale in the US within the next 24-30 months?

    Tata? Not sure if they have enough breadth in their model lineup to fulfill the US market.

    Random Chinese company? Possibly ...
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    I've sat in a few of them and talked to people who own them. I'f flip a free Aveo for a 20-year-old Corolla or Sentra without hesitation.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz-s1sIoLhU

    Vastly better than an Aveo (with soundtrack):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVwcqxlh7gM
  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    Don't toss Fiat out of this discussion just yet. Not many people believe the Chrysler/Fiat merger will get done.

    http://www.autoobserver.com/2009/04/chryslers-italian-lifeline-full-of-knots.htm- l#more

    This would give Fiat plenty of time to certify their cars for our market.
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