Volkswagen Jetta Brakes and Rotors
3mechauns
Member Posts: 1
in Volkswagen
I have a '99 new body jetta, vr6, standard, with about 116k miles. About 2 years ago the brake rotors and pads were replaced by my mechanic b/c there was grooving on the rotors and a noticeable pulsing in the steering wheel when the brakes were applied. About 5 months later, the same symptoms appeared.
Befuddled, my mechanic thought perhaps defective rotors were installed. Genuine VW parts were not used. Because he was very skeptical, and had never seen rotors fail that quickly, he looked for any other brake related problems. They changed a brake line, and one other thing I cannot remember, but had explained to me that every possible thing that could be changed/fixed was the 2nd time they changed the rotors and pads again. He questioned my braking style. However, my argument was why would I not need rotors for the first 7 years of my car's driving history with me, have them replaced and then have my braking style make the rotors fail about 6 months later. Driver error didn't seem to make sense.
So...Here I am now with an appt. to change the rotors again, this time using genuine VW rotors. I am feeling like this is a bandaid approach and have fears that even with the VW rotors, I will end up with the same pulsating when the brakes are applied. The pulsating always starts out small and barely noticeable, as it progressively gets worse and worse. Someone suggested going to a new mechanic but I have been loyal to this shop b/c they are good guys and I have never had trust issues with them. The first time I paid for a full repair. The second time they only charged me for the parts. I do not know what they plan to do for this 3rd rotor replacement as far as the bill but I would be nervous to start somewhere new and the dealer's hourly charges are outrageous.
Any thoughts on what is going on with my braking system? Thanks! Kim
Befuddled, my mechanic thought perhaps defective rotors were installed. Genuine VW parts were not used. Because he was very skeptical, and had never seen rotors fail that quickly, he looked for any other brake related problems. They changed a brake line, and one other thing I cannot remember, but had explained to me that every possible thing that could be changed/fixed was the 2nd time they changed the rotors and pads again. He questioned my braking style. However, my argument was why would I not need rotors for the first 7 years of my car's driving history with me, have them replaced and then have my braking style make the rotors fail about 6 months later. Driver error didn't seem to make sense.
So...Here I am now with an appt. to change the rotors again, this time using genuine VW rotors. I am feeling like this is a bandaid approach and have fears that even with the VW rotors, I will end up with the same pulsating when the brakes are applied. The pulsating always starts out small and barely noticeable, as it progressively gets worse and worse. Someone suggested going to a new mechanic but I have been loyal to this shop b/c they are good guys and I have never had trust issues with them. The first time I paid for a full repair. The second time they only charged me for the parts. I do not know what they plan to do for this 3rd rotor replacement as far as the bill but I would be nervous to start somewhere new and the dealer's hourly charges are outrageous.
Any thoughts on what is going on with my braking system? Thanks! Kim
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Comments
Al
So, am I wrong when I think this is not proper brake wear? And if so, any ideas.
I hope this helps in some way.
Al
If you have used up the pads in as little as 11,000 miles, one of two things have occurred; 1. You did not need new pads, or 2. There is a malfunction of the brake system.
I hope this helps you.
Recommendation: Always have the mechanic show you the condition of the pads, or any other part, while it is still on the vehicle. You can also do a visual inspection by looking at the brake caliper through the rim, or from under the vehicle.
I have a 2006 Jetta, and my front pads have 75% pad left, while the rear are cutting rotor.
Mileage? 65,000.... but 50,000 of those are all highway miles without me stepping on the brakes. In reality, I have about 20,000 or less equivalent city miles on the car. Brakes should last at LEAST 50,000, as evidenced by my 'faster wearing' front pads at 75% pad left.
And I noticed someone mention rear brakes wear faster on 4 wheel disc cars. They're not supposed to. Proof? Look at the front brakes on a Jetta. They have a brake wear sensor attached to the computer with a wire coming right off the pad. No such thing on the rear. VW expects the front pads to wear first.
For those that don't know what I mean, rear brakes (that have the Emergency Brake) have a mechanical adjustment that pushes the brake piston out more and more as the rear brakes wear. On older drum brakes, each time you put the car in reverse and hit the brakes, a little lever comes down and pushes against a sprocket, which turns a bolt, which pushes the shoes out more. However, with the old drum brakes, if the pads hadn't yet worn down yet, the little lever wouldn't hit the little sprocket, so the pads wouldn't be pushed farther out until ready.
Apparently on the VW (and maybe other) rear disc brakes, it adjusts each time you put the Ebrake on, and the more you crank on the handle, the more it adjusts the pads out. I'm not positive of that, but sure enough.
I've taken to putting the Ebrake on just 2 clicks. That has held the car with the clutch pushed down, even on a hill.
It looks like everyone will get a full 50,000 minimum out of the front pads. Mine have a ton of pad left, with 65K on the car. (Highway, mind oyu...) Both Autozone and Advance have lifetime rear pads for less than $30, and it takes 30 minutes to change the pads each side, so I'll just replace them every 50K for a one-time cost of $30.
What VW really needs to do, is start putting wear sensors on the back, and wire them in series with the front pad sensors. If the rear brakes wear first, that's where the sensor should be. I smell a recall.... the brakes are a major safety component.
The caliper mount needs removed to remove the rear rotors.
I don't know where to buy one yet, but it is NOT a torx driver. Don't attempt to use a torx, or you will destroy the bolt.
The problem is three fold:
1. VW feels the brake pad material doesn't have enough metal in it. I've seen the pad, and it looks like it has a lot MORE metal than other pads, but spectrum analyze the pad I didn't.
2. The emergency brake is maladjusted from the factory.
3. People are cranking on the EB too much. 2,3 clicks max, or the adjusters will push the pad too far out.
They have been replacing the rear brakes for ALL CUSTOMERS with this problem.
I'm calling my dealer.....
Of course normal brake wear is not directly related to miles traveled, it has to do with the amount of stopping you do no how far you go.
I’m changing rear break pads on my 2003 Jetta
I’m trying to press the break cylinder back with a c clamp
To make space for the new pads, no luck!!
Anyone knows how make this happen?
HELP!!
Pete
At the time, I took my car to Volkswagen of Orange Park, a suburb of Jacksonville, FL. My service advisor there was Paul Bergeron. He dealt with that issue the entire time I had problems with my rear brake system. They had finally fixed them and they were not squeaking at all. Two months went by and they started squealing slightly again, but not nearly as bad as before. The dealership manager and service manager told me on my 12th visit to the dealer within a month that they will most likely have to give the car back to Volkswagen of America as a defect. Volkswagen of America bought the car back for exactly what I paid for it and gave me complimentary scheduled maintenance up until 25,000 miles because I had done all my factory scheduled maintenance with them up until 25,000 miles. Owner loyalty counts! This was my 7th VW product in 10 years. I purchased a new 2007 GTI to replace the rabbit. This GTI does not have break issues. I currently have 24,000 miles on this car and I still have at least 85% of my rear brake pads left. Some of the new MKV Jettas, Rabbits, and GTI's have the rear brake devil in them. Some don't. But make sure you don't get one, because it flat out sucks.
I'm new addition to this forum and here's my case--new 2008 jetta, 3-4months old, 4200 miles, both rear brakes completely GONE. Grinding metal on metal. Rotors damaged. Locking up and jumped the median b/c my brakes caused me to lose control.
This is not a routine overuse problem nor maintenance problem unless I have used my brakes to slow me down as I reentered the atmosphere from space on my last trip to the space station.
Mechanic at the dealership tried to strongly insinuate that this was my fault as the driver because I used the emergency brake for parking and that I didn't downshift as much as he thought I should have been.
My car is in the shop right now being fixed so I'll have to update this thread after they tell me what they think.
I have researched this extensively and most cars, including most VWs, don't change brake pads remotely often and NOBODY...NOBODY...has to do it at 4200 miles.
If I end up having to fix the brakes in another 10000 miles as it seems others have had to do on this forum then it's a lemon--no two ways about it.
Not happy about this and If you're reading this I would make a point of asking your dealer when you're shopping and immediately seeking service for squeeking/grinding/squealing brakes. (I thought mine was just a rock and it was only grinding for the last week)
Good luck,
will let you know
Tom
:confuse:
http://www.forbes.com/home/2008/05/02/best-small-cars-forbeslife-cx_jm_0502cars.- html
This is a design flaw/defect though, no two ways about it, and that raises some big concerns for me as a car owner.
The fact that there is a forum thread about my problem is proof of principle.
The other fact that bothers me is my service people's response--no brakes burn out from wear...no matter what you are doing..at 4200miles.
I explicitly asked them too if there was a known problem like this with jettas/VWs and they denied it, but took me about 2 secs to find this theme on the internet.
VW is notorious for their great service and this should be addressed in that manner.
Oh, and if it is related to your brakes VW may want to be a little more concerned since it's a safety issue and not just a cosmetic one.
I want to see what they say after they take a look at it and get back to me--that will tell me whether or not I'll be keeping/buying a VW in the future.
more to follow
Tom
So I talked to my dealer service representative today and here's what they (HOY-FOX in El Paso, TX) said:
"It's driver habit" that caused your brakes to wear prematurely and we aren't paying for anything.
You need to pay 270$ more to fix your brake pads and replace both rotors
and everything else was working perfectly.
It's your fault and we aren't responsible."
Needless to say, I'm flabbergasted.
I said before how I felt they were trying to find a way to blame me for this and that they insinuated that it was my fault right from the beginning...well, now they've made it official.
And for the record, they stated this is what VOLKSWAGEN told them not them as the dealers.
When I mentioned this forum, the other people who reported early brake failure on the web, the other people who drive the exact same route I do to work (which is over a 5000 ft altitude mountain pass called Transmountain Drive x about 15miles each way) who don't have brake problems, the other 3 manual transmission cars I've had that didn't burn out their brakes, and the fact that no mechanic that has seen this car nor any of the lifelong mechanic friends/family that I know have ever heard of a car completely burning out its brakes at 4200 miles, they reassured me that I was wrong and that is was my fault and that they wouldn't pay for it.
Furthermore, they told me I was wrong to not bring it to them immediately upon hearing the brakes grinding--even though I only heard it for 1 week and by the time it was grinding it was ALREADY metal on metal and that I did call to make an appt and they told me it would be 1 week for me to see them even though I described having brake problems.
Then they said that I screwed up by taking it to Meineke first. Meineke about 1mile from my house and I pass it on the way home every day. When I took it to them, I was still convinced it was just a rock, after all "it was still practically brand new and ONLY HAD 4200 miles". I figured i'd just get a quick look and hopefully fix a simple problem and when they took off my rear wheels they (the whole shop of mechanics) couldn't believe that I had metal on metal in both rear brakes. They stated they'd never seen this before even in cars with 10000 miles. I made the mistake of letting Meineke replace the brake pads right then for 150$ out of pocket already before I got my act together and called Hoy-Fox and told them that I was bringing my car to them THAT SAME DAY no matter when they would see it because it wasn't safe to drive. I brought the car to the VW dealer the same day I had a mechanic tell me that I had serious problems with my brakes...not a rock. I actually thought they might even reimburse me for already buying the brake pads, dumb ol' me--they felt that having Meineke inspect my car and change the brake pads should void the warranty, which they were already saying didn't cover my brakes anyway. That's service huh!
So, I have lots of sympathy from people who aren't the ones working for Hoy Fox, Volkswagen, or the auto service industry in general, and I don't have a lot of appreciation for how I've been treated so far.
I complained directly to VOLKSWAGEN on their hotline at 1-800-822-8987. They are looking into it directly and I expect to know more from them tomorrow.
I've challenged them, and ask you all too, to come up with another example of a car with total metal on metal brake wear in 4200 miles that they think is from driver habit...excluding monster trucks and Indy 500 cars I guess. How far do you think you could drive without ruining the brakes with the parking brake on?
Not sure what I can do now.
I think they should pay for new brakes and I've told them that directly.
If they do, then I'm still not sure what the future will hold--maybe I can ask them to plough Transmountain drive flat so that my driving habits don't endanger my car's health. If the brakes burn out every 4months, ...assuming that I don't die in a fiery wreck with no brakes,...then that should be about 250-500$ a pop.
I am looking into my options for legal action and contract violations on the part of the lease, but this is almost always a losing battle it seems.
If Volkswagen decides that they aren't going to fix this car, then I'm not sure even more.
But that would be one step closer to recommending to the known universe every chance I get not to get involved with VW.
This company is renowned for its service?
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Tom
did you read my post?
1. taking it to Meineke instead of directly to the dealer was a mistake, I agree, but what was I supposed to do?
2. does this negate the damage that had been done before I went to Meineke in any way?
3. does this explain the damage to my brakes in any way?
4. when I call to make an appt with my dealer and they say it's going to be 1 week, even when I tell them that my antilock brakes are locking up and I'm jumping the median into oncoming traffic, does that seem appropriate?
5. does the fact that when I talk to the people at Meineke, professional car mechanics, and tell them that VW is telling me this is all my fault b/c I'm a bad driver makes them consider this as much [non-permissible content removed] as I do?
6. I explained why I took it to Meineke in my previous post and I think it made perfect sense--what I shouldn't have done was have them do any replacements or work on the car at my own expense...but since VW considers their car to be in perfect working condition in all respects except the drive, all I did was give the dealer one more EXCUSE, yes just an excuse, to wimp out on their end of my contract. That's all Hoy-Fox has done for me is to work on every possible angle to say it's my fault--what about the other 15 year old car I had for 4 years driving back and forth over transmountain that never needed any work on it's breaks, what about ever other driver in El Paso who goes over this route and doesn't need break work?
seriously, I'm a big boy...if I did something wrong...tell me but since every sane person I've talked to about this with any knowledge of car functioning thinks I couldn
't have possibly caused this damage this much this fast no matter what I was doing...maybe VW ought to reconsider.
thanks
still waiting for the final word from VW headquarters
Tom
I made the mistake of letting Meineke replace the brake pads right then for 150$ out of pocket already before I got my act together and called Hoy-Fox and told them that I was bringing my car to them THAT SAME DAY no matter when they would see it because it wasn't safe to drive.
As you indicate this was mistake. My post basically said to another poster "don't make this mistake, if you have a problem with the brakes". Now you have VW and your dealer looking at a car that Meinke has already done brake work on. From their perspective, this has given them a reason (or excuse, if you prefer) to have some suspicion about this situation.
Of course, assuming you do not ride the brakes or drive with the parking brake on, it certainly is a problem to have brakes last less than 5K mi. In addition, the dealer mechanic that blamed using the emergency brake for parking and not downshifting is an idiot. Many believe that using brakes for stopping is preferable to using the transmission, besides don't they have the same brakes on automatics. It also is rather ridiculous to say the parking brake (aka. emergency brake) is not to be used for parking.
if i was in the market for a brand new VW and was told about the rear brake issues that would have killed the deal for me as far as i am concerned......
and it's crap.
Volkswagen, and my dealer HOY-FOX in El Paso, TX have both stated that my 2008 Jetta car breaks have worn out completely to metal grinding metal in 4200 miles is my, and only my, fault.
They officially told me that because I drive over a mountain pass that is 5000 ft elevation (with probably a 1000-1500 change in elevation up and over the path) and because I must suck as a driver and ride my brakes and quote/unquote "not downshift enough" that I caused this to happen.
No warranty.
No manufacturer defect.
No problems with my brakes otherwise and everything was working "perfectly".
No acknowledgement in any way shape or form by HOY-FOX or the National 1-800 complaint line of hearing of anyone else [this meaning everyone else on this forum at least] of having any problems with rear brakes on a Jetta wearing early. I specifically asked them if Volkswagen had received any problems like mine (early rear brake wear on Jettas) and they stated they had no database, other records, etc. about this. AND they were not able to explain why I could find other people with these concerns and they didn't know about them nor why other people might be having the same problem I was even though they 1) weren't me with my driving habits and 2) weren't taking the same road I was apparently. (to me, the fact that anyone else has reported this problem immediately defeats their argument that this was my fault...that's why I bet they didn't acknowledge it)
I'm disgusted.
I've never been treated so poorly or ridiculously by a company in my entire life.
Every person I have talked to that doesn't work for HOY-FOX or Volkswagen has stated that this is "unheard of", "preposterous", "insane", and frankly "not possible no matter how you're driving" including most people who know a whole lot more about cars than I do. But apparently everyone at HOY-FOX and Volkswagen are undaunted in their assessment, as the only ones who feel this is remotely reasonable, that it was my fault.
Mind you, there is absolutely no proof that this is/was my fault. That's why I feel so perfectly free to badmouth this company. Prove me wrong. It seems that the tie, if that's what this could even possibly be construed as, maybe should go to the runner in a new car with spent brakes. When you weigh the cost of making the customer happy long term vs. telling the customer it must be their fault seems like a very simple business decision too.
My recommendations for anyone on this forum or who reads this forum are as follows:
1. avoid HOY-FOX at all costs
2. avoid Volkswagen
3. if you go to a car dealer (not an independent mechanic) don't tell them anything...they are looking for something to use against you to prevent them from honoring their warranty and making anything their expense--I don't think there is anything that you need to tell them--the experts--about what you are doing with your car. Stonewall them or lie...how are they going to know. Even if you know you haven't done anything...don't tell them a word. No matter what question they ask you say "all I do is drive back and forth to my good driver's award ceremony and to church...nothing else"
4. don't even go for a "courtesy ride" with a mechanic or sales "assistant"--same reason as #3. This is a farce. They want to figure out what's wrong...let their expert drive the car.
5. if you trust your dealer, then go directly to them...this was clearly a mistake on my part (of course this didn't help me one little bit in the end but that's my problem)
6. if you are having problems with something serious--like brakes/engine/SAFETY issues then I'd talk to a manager level service person and only if you are getting your windshield wipers changed or something on par with this complexity level would I let the first line service "assistants" help you
7,. If you own a Jetta--do not use the parking brake either for parking or emergencies; downshift at the expense of your clutch to save your brakes (much less expensive I guess to replace the transmission than the brakes right?); don't go over hills bigger than speed bumps; don't brake ever actually...these are apparently considered "bad driving habits" and "extraordinary wear and tear" beyond the standard use of this car and not covered by a warranty.
My Plan:
1. I plan on sending a complaint about Hoy-Fox to the Better Business Bureau--this won't help me but the next person they give the shaft to can use my case to help them.
2. I plan on sending a formal complaint to the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) about Volkswagen and their apparent lack of recognition that 1) this is a clear safety issue and 2) that more than one person has apparently had this problem and yet Volkswagen doesn't seem to know this...or care to track it. If Volkswagen isn't keeping a database about this problem then I hope the NTSB will consider doing so.
3. I'm going to tell everyone I know not to buy a Volkswagen and see how much my 270$ bill for new brakes on my new car that they felt I should pay might cost them in negative publicity about how they treated me.
4. I want everyone on this forum and anyone who reads it to know that if they are ever hurt or know someone who gets hurt in a VW Jetta because of premature break wear that I'd be happy to be a witness in their case and tell their lawyers in painstaking detail how "my car did the same thing and the company blamed me" and "VW denied knowledge of other people having this problem". If this happens to one other person after me and they could have done something to avoid this problem, then me being a loudmouth blab now might be worth it.
thank you all
Tom :lemon:
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/