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Vintage Car Identification Help!

savannahjamessavannahjames Member Posts: 2
in General
I would really appreciate help identifying the car in this photo. I only have a vague idea of when the photo might have been taken - I am guessing somewhere between 1915 and the early 1920s, but I am really not sure. I only have this one photo of the car. Identifying the car would help me pinpoint the date it was taken, which would help me in identifying the men in the photo as well.

image

Any ideas would be appreciated!
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Comments

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    You are right on the dates - I'd say the car dates from the late teens or very early 20s, but I have no idea what it is. That kind of humped rear end might be a clue...it's not a common car like a Model T or a Chevy. The wire wheels point to the car having a sporty image for the time...but the make is a mystery to me.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yeah it's a very early car, closer to '15 than the mid-20s IMO. There's really not enough of the car to make an ID. All one could say is that it's not a very high priced car. You have to remember there were hundreds, perhaps over 1,000, different makes back then in that decade. So lotsa luck on guessing. I doubt anyone could know given that we cannot see the front of the car or the dashboard, the two defining features back then.
    Body shapes were almost generic and many cars were called "assembled" cars---that is, the automaker bought the parts from suppliers and bolted them together and put his name on it. So look alikes are common for this reason.
  • savannahjamessavannahjames Member Posts: 2
    I suppose the round openings in the top are not something that would help pinpoint a date? I had hoped that they might be specific to a certain brand.. I've looked through a lot of photos, and most of the ones I've seen with round openings were Dodge, but I've not come across any that have two round openings of that size.

    Thanks so much for your help!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Custom tops were very common then, ordered out of catalogs. Many cars didn't even come with tops. You had to order them out of aftermarket catalogs.

    Really I think your task is impossible because you can't see the car. I mean people will guess but with over 1,000 manufacturers, many of them only local within a few hundred miles, this is going to be very tough.

    Of course, if you are a monk with plenty of time and access to thousands of photos, you MIGHT get lucky!

    But then, the photo would also have to be labeled, and then you'd have to be sure the label was correct.

    I also collect old car photos, and I have seen where the person labels the car in pencil and it isn't the right year (usually the right make, though).

    I even have cars that I CAN see the front grille and nobody can identify. Often local businesses would put their own grille ornaments and names on the cars.

    All I can say with any certainty is a) it's american and b) it's about 1918.
  • hudsonthedoghudsonthedog Member Posts: 552
    I'm going to agree with most posts...that this car is probably from the mid-teens. I think you can narrow the search to any number of economy or cyclecar manufacturers at the time since it does look quite pettite.
  • tom_rtom_r Member Posts: 2
    I have a Handbook of Automobiles 1916 but I couldn't match it with anything. If you have the original picture, use a magnifying glass to see if you can get a date of the license plate or logo off the spare tire hub.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    Ben & Jerry who brought ice cream to the picnic. ;)
  • grahampaigegrahampaige Member Posts: 51
    try the guys at http://forums.aaca.org/

    They seem to be able to identify a car from nothing...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    Thanks for sharing that. I still have that old beast on my carspace page I haven't ID'd yet.
  • wolfbwolfb Member Posts: 2
    Here is a picture that I picked up with a lot of postcards from a local auction. I'd like to know if anyone can identify the auto in it? From the dress of the people in the picture it looks like from the late teens/early 20's. Doesn't look like a Ford or Chevy to me. Any ideas?
    Thanks
    Wolf-==-

    http://www.southslope.net/~paradimes/vintageauto.jpg
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    No I would say mid 20s. That's an usual roof---a collapsible landau top for the back passengers. Closed cars were very rare in the late teens/early 20s. This car is at least a mid 20s car.

    My guess is a 1926 Chevrolet Model V Imperial Landau -- I base that on the squarish rear door window.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    I agree. The disc wheels and drum headlights are traits of period Chevys too.

    Here's another image of a 26 I found online...looks like the same car:

    image

    FWIW, this style, somewhat popular in the late 20s, is kind of the first fake convertible - the rear section does not go down. Fake landau bars predate 70s pimpiness.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    Here's another, sans landau bars

    image

    Both photos are ID's as 26 Chevys
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    yeah I guess it would have made no sense to actually put an expensive, hand-made collapsible rear roof on a cheap car like that. Companies like Le Brunn did make workable collapsing rear roofs for cars like Packard, etc.

    Disk wheels were an answer to the dangerous wooden artillery wheels--disk wheels are also a sure visual cue of a less expensive car.

    The reason closed cars have leather roofs in the 20s is to cover up an opening that has wooden struts in it. In the 1920, automakers had still not figured out how to mass-produce a single, solid roof stamping. They had to piece the roof together.

    Only in the 1930s do we see the one-piece "turret top", mass-produced car with solid metal roof (of course, custom coachbuilders made them earlier). This technique of large stampings came from the railroad car industry. (Budd).

    So anyway, I used disk wheels and leather roof to tell me the car was 1920s, and also seeing that it was a closed car to date it at least 1924 on up. Also the leather roof kept it from being a 30s car, more or less.

    Also in the 1930s we see the start of the 'bustle trunk", that is, a trunk lid rather than a separate trunk bolted on the straight back of the car, like the one in this picture would have carried.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    Good educated guess ;) ...little details like the fanciness of the Chevy were a good way to differentiate it from a lesser car like a Model T - and increase sales during a booming time. Deluxe Model As had such details too.

    Yeah by 1935 or so the integrated trunk was the norm, and steel bodies etc came on right after. Very few closed cars before 1922 - the Essex was the first massmarket/affordable closed car, it had a significant impact. By 1930, most wanted a closed car.

    Speaking of that Chevy, Here's a Buick from the fintail family album...about the same year as the Chevy, probably shares a few parts.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    yes the Model T was totally obsolete by 1926, and Chevy was catching up to Ford rapidly in production.

    Probably the most modern car of that time period, in mass production I mean, was the new 1924 Chrysler.
  • wolfbwolfb Member Posts: 2
    Wow! That was quick. Thanks all for the info. My knowledge of the early models is lacking as you can see. The picture goes in my collection of vintage photos. I'm dating this one a 1927 pix of a 1926 Chevy. Of course it could be from 1926...but given the apparent time of year, I'd say spring 1927.

    Thanks again and...
    Cheers!

    Wolf-==-
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    When did Chevy begin to outsell Ford anyway?

    Yeah, the braking system alone on that Chrysler was a generation ahead of anything else. A milestone car.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    1927 was the first year Chevy outsold Ford. Then the Model A came out, which was a very good response to the Chevrolet challenge.

    So they went back and forth for a while but then Chevy started coming out with lots of styles, colors, options in the 1930s. Ford fought back with their V-8, but GM was relentless and by the early 50s they were pulling away. Henry Senior was a stubborn old coot and until he passed away it was very difficult to innovate at Ford. It really took the Mustang to revive the company.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    GM really understood marketing, both segmentation and making the public want something new/
  • rskellnerrskellner Member Posts: 9
    My grandfather was Friedrich Kellner, the anti-[non-permissible content removed] justice inspector who wrote a diary during the war that recently was exhibited at the United Nations. Last month there was a front page story about him in the San Diego Union Tribune:
    http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/feb/12/1n12kellner233823-promise-kep- t-share-diary-[non-permissible content removed]-di/?metro
    A Google search would give you a lot of additional information about him.
    I have two photographs that belonged to him, with a different car in each photo, and I am wondering if someone here can help me identify the names and the years of these cars. I am even having to guess at the date the photos were taken. For example, the first photo may have been taken anytime between 1924 and 1934, and the second photo may have been taken anytime between 1936 and 1944.
    My grandfather lived in Germany all his life, so I am assuming the cars are German or French or Swiss. The hood (or radiator) ornament on the car in the 1940 photo looks a little like a Studebaker ornament, although not quite the same. Otherwise the body of the car looks like a Voisson, but the Voisson has a very identifiable hood ornament of two large upright wings, so this cannot be a Voisson. Try as I might, I cannot find any photo of these cars on the Internet.
    My Edmunds album is here with the photos
    Thank you very much, Scott.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    Those are some tough cars to identify.

    The first one I have no idea, but the style of it makes me think it is French. It is from the late 20s.

    The second one is from the early 30s, and I suspect that one is German. The horizontal hood vent partially visible in the photo reminds me of a period Stoewer, a car built in Stettin. But I am not certain about this at all.

    There are some European members and experts at the AACA forum available via this link who suspect will know what those cars are

    If you are unable to post pics there I could do it for you.
  • rskellnerrskellner Member Posts: 9
    I was somewhat worried that these cars would not be easy to identify, and your post has confirmed that for me. I greatly appreciate your offer to post these photos on the other website. Can you simply refer the people at the other website to the album on this Edmunds website? I hate to put you to the trouble of having to upload the photos there. In any case, I am grateful for the help. Scott Kellner
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    It's not a problem to post/host images these days, with so many venues for free photo hosting. I just uploaded them and asked about the pics at that other site. I am curious about them too, especially the second car as I have at least a guess about its identity. Check the link I posted , and you can see your pics posted and hopefully some answers. I have the same username there as here.
  • rskellnerrskellner Member Posts: 9
    Thank you for posting the question and the photos on the other website. I feel certain someone will be able to help. In the meantime, when you said you thought the 1928 photo could possible be a French car, I went to the Oldtimers Gallery and searched every single one of their photos for French cars, and perhaps the car in the photo is a 1929 Citroen AC 4 -- the compressed roof (at front) matches, and the hood ornament is a bit like those on other Citroens of this period. By the way, the fellow on the very left of the photo, the one with the goggles on his hat, is my grandfather, Friedrich Kellner. He was a very brave fellow and deserves the attention he is getting. You might look at the Wikipedia articles about him.
    Again, thank you. I will continue to check back here and at the other site until the mystery is solved. I have also sent out some emails to people who posted on the Oldtimers Gallery, so perhaps something will come of all this.
    Scott
  • rskellnerrskellner Member Posts: 9
    I have just seen a photo of a 1932 Citroen C4 1X at this website,
    http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C18527/
    and it looks more like my grandfather's car than the Citroen AC 4. The AC 4 has three side windows, so it is a longer car, but this C4 1X has two side windows. Except the side roof post at the back is much wider in the C4 1X than on my grandfather's car. And the question arises about the placement of the spare tire, which is on the passenger side of my grandfather's car, but it is not visible on the passenger side of the C4 1X (which is the only side shown in the series of photos about it). Is it possible the car was built by some now unknown company that used the Citroen as its model? Scott
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    In those days, cars were often built by license in various countries. So you could have German cars built in France, French cars built in Germany, and just about every other permutation. As they were built in the non-native country, subtle variations occurred to give them a national identity.

    American car buffs would probably be clueless about all this. You'd need to post in forums that were more for global auto historians.

    One good place would be a respected European Automotive Museum. They might do the research for you, for a small fee. For instance:

    Centre International de l'Automobile
    25 rue d'Estienne d'Orves
    F-93500 Paris
    France

    or

    www.collection-schlumpf.com
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    The earlier car could be a Citroen, yes. I do believe it is French - they had a little fetish for disc wheels along with that general body shape.

    I got a few replies at the AACA forum. Someone thinks the first car is a Stoewer - which I do not agree with, as all period Stoewers I know of had a prominent theme of horizontal hood vents. Also a suggestion about the second car could be a Steyr - which could be the case with that clue on the hood ornament. Over the years Steyr also built several designs under license, so the car could have another origin. Someone also suggested it could be a Wanderer - which I suspect is not correct, again because of the hood vents. That horizontal line is a key clue to the identity of the car, IMO.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Disc wheels were usually the sign of an inexpensive car, and Citroen did make some affordable models. The car with the landau bars looks German to me in how that top is designed.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    The first car is a cheaper model certainly.

    Someone else at that other forum now sees a Steyr/Austro-Daimler connection in the second car. That might be it...but I still think the unusual horizontal hood vent is the key.

    There was a bodymaker in Dresden named 'Glaser' who built bodies very much like the one in that photo. I have even seen them on Fords and GM products sold in Europe at the time.
  • rskellnerrskellner Member Posts: 9
    The cabriolet is similar to the Austro Daimler, with various features that match Austro Daimlers between 1927 and 1933, but I cannot find an exact match. And it is also similar to the Mercedes Benz Kompressor Sports Cabriolet. The downsweep of the body directly below the bottom of the back of the convertible top is a defining feature that I thought would easily aid me in locating the car. The Austro Daimler does not seem to have this style, although the Mercedes does, to some extent.
    I do think the first car is probably a form of a Citroen, yet it also looks like a Praga Piccolo and Wolseley Hornet, which further underscores the difficulty in being able to make a definitive decision.
    I am working with some professors at Justus Liebig University in Giessen to bring the Kellner diary into print (which should occur by next year), and I will send them these photos and see if they can find an answer. I do want to thank you gentlemen for your efforts. I will continue to monitor this and the other websites. I most certainly have had an interesting education these past few days trying to ascertain the make and year of these two cars. I had no idea so many automobile manufacturers existed in the early days of automobile production. That was capitalism at its best, I think, for it ultimately led to the grand automobiles we now have, with 100,000 mile guarantees, etc. We own a VW Passat and a Mazda Miata, so as charming as the old car styles are, there are some wonderfully charming new cars, as well. Scott
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    The cabrio car is not a Mercedes, I can tell that much immediately. Those cars are the crux of whatever expertise I have ;)

    It's also not a large car, so probably not from any prestige maker. It's a typical upper middle class style from ca. 1930. I haven't seen any Austro-Daimlers of that size, but I am not an expert on that make.

    I have to believe the first car is French...I can't imagine it being British, anyway. Sadly, the depression and the war killed off countless little European makers, so Euro cars of this area are exponentially more difficult to identify than American cars of the period.

    If there are any updates at the AACA forum I will post them here.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    There were at least 1500 to 2000 makes of cars made worldwide, and perhaps even substantially more than that, once all the research is in. Some were only one-offs, some just sketches and brochures, some so local and home-built that nothing survives but a mention in a newspaper article.
  • rskellnerrskellner Member Posts: 9
    I looked more closely at the 1928 photo, and I was wrong to say it had a narrow side roof post at the back. Actually, the back window section of the car is open and leaning away from the car (I guess for ventilation), and when that back window section is put back into place, the side posts would look every bit as wide as those in the 1932 Citroen C4 1X. So if I cannot get a more definite answer, I will say that the car in the 1928 photo is "very similar to the Citroen C4 1X, and possible made between 1929 and 1932." In any case, the photo will no longer be labeled with the year 1928.
    As for the cabriolet, I shall eliminate it being a Mercedes. Except for the engine vents, it looks like a 1931 Wanderer W14, including the two spare tires, of which only two dozen were made. So, if nothing else, I can make that statement, too, and assume my grandfather bought one used. Scott
  • rskellnerrskellner Member Posts: 9
    I just came from the AACA website. A poster named Vintman suggested the cabriolet was a Steyr 30 (Austro Daimler influenced), so I found the following website with a photo of his suggestion.
    I do believe he is right. Do you both think so, too?
    You might have to cut and paste this URL
    http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:MHV_Steyr_30_S_1932_02.jpg
    Scott
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    I think that might be on the right track. The wikimedia photo is of a completely different style, but I see enough similarity in the front section to give it credibility, I'd now wager the car has some ties to the Steyr/Austro-Daimler/Puch conglomeration. A very uncommon car.
  • rskellnerrskellner Member Posts: 9
    Regarding the "1928" photo, the car with the Landaulette back, I received an email from Germany saying it was an Opel, rather than a Citroen. But there was no suggestion about the date or model of this so-called "Opel,", so I am waiting for further news from the Opel Company itself, because I then sent them the photo. I do not think it is an Opel, because I cannot find an Opel of this period with the double vertical side vents. Yet I have discovered that the 1927 Wanderer and the 1928 Auto Union DKW (which is part Wanderer) do have the double vertical side vents. So I am beginning to suspect this car may be one of those hybrids from Auto Union DKW? I will let you know what I hear from Opel and some other German correspondents. Scott
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    It could be an Opel, but as you mention, the hood (and to me, grille) doesn't resemble a period Opel. The 20s were a time of a lot of mergers and hybrid products with bits from one and bits from another. There's a chance the older car might not find positive ID unless a real expert sees it. Some German or French auto museum types would be the greatest asset.
  • rskellnerrskellner Member Posts: 9
    I sent an email directly to Vintman on the AACA board, and he has now placed another message on that board and identified the car as a 1931-32 Hanomag cabriolet, and Lief on that board has added photos of the Hanomag, and given this website: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Hanomag_vehicles
    Hanomag is the identity for sure. I also found another photo in my album of my grandfather's car, a top view, showing the cabriolet-type top, kind of a strange top. I have added that photo to my Edmunds Carspace album.
    In no way would I have found this information by myself, and so I am very grateful to the moderator here, Mr. Shiftright, who initially suggested I place the question on this forum, and then to Fintail, who so kindly took on this task and even expanded the search to the AACA board--and then of course the work of Vintman and Lief. It is all so very much appreciated. Thank you. Scott
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    Ah that's cool! Hanomag is a good old brand, which met an unfortunate and somewhat artificial demise. They had a few interesting cars, including the 1920s streamlined 'Kommisbrot' and a late 30s 'Autobahn' which resembled a VW.'' They were never a major player in passenger cars, so it was an oddity even then.

    The new photo is a good help too, sure makes the car look small, but adds very important clues.

    Now to prove the identity of the elegant little cabrio. I do suspect it is somehow connected to the Steyr family.
  • grahampaigegrahampaige Member Posts: 51
    I say lat Austro Dailmer for the convertible

    See
    http://www.austrodaimler.at/resize_pic.php?pic=.%2Fbilder%2FAutos%2FADR6-Bergmei- ster-1931-34.jpg&width=450
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    SVVS has ID'd the car as a Steyr...which is part of the Austro-Daimler lineage, so that's pretty much right.
  • drbrokedrbroke Member Posts: 4
    Can anyone help me identify the make and model of this car? I purchased this house and as part of the restoration, this photo was found of this car with the owners.
    The house is in San Antonio, Texas. Home was built in 1907. Judging from some of the other photos that I have this could be 1915-1920? The round emblem near the driver appears to be an "H". Thanks

    sorry having trouble attaching image.. will soon
  • drbrokedrbroke Member Posts: 4
    here's a link to the photo of the vintage car I'm trying to id. msg#44
    [url=http://www.hiboox.com/go/pictures/miscellaneous/dsc01184,9db217478adae5557a- 153ac4206763b3.jpg.html][img]http://images3.hiboox.com/vignettes/2209/9db217478a- dae5557a153ac4206763b3.jpg[/img][/url]
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oops, that's not going to work.

    What you do is display your picture on the Hiboox site. Then highlight and copy the URL that appears in your location bar up top, then come here, click on "IMG" once, then paste in the URL, then click on "IMG" again.

    Or just past the URL in the box here.

    Also just post in ONE topic, this one. Don't duplicate your postings if you can avoid it. Thanks! Look forward to seeing the image.
  • drbrokedrbroke Member Posts: 4
    I am trying to Id this old car from the photo. See if this link works.http://www.hiboox.com/go/pictures/miscellaneous/dsc01184,9db217478adae5557- a153ac4206763b3.jpg.html
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Nope that link doesn't work.

    You can start your own Carspace page here at www.carspace.com. It will allow you to create a photo album and upload directly from your computer's hard drive. Then all you have to do is send us the link to your carspace page and we can view your photo album.

    Or e-mail me that photo and I'll post it for you.
  • drbrokedrbroke Member Posts: 4
    Let's try this link..imagehttp://www.carspace.com/drbroke/Albums/drbroke's Album/DSC01184.JPG/page/pho- to.html#pic">
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,136
    You got it, it works like this:

    http://www.carspace.com/drbroke/Albums/drbroke%27s%20Album/DSC01184.JPG

    But I hate to say it, I have no idea what that old beast is, but something about it to me says Buick or Olds from maybe 1913-14. It appears to have electric headlights, which would make it after 1912, but the fenders suggest early teens.

    The people at this AACA forum will probably know it down to the year and model in no time
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It's a big car, a "phaeton" in the torpedo style, probably fairly expensive but not a luxury car. It has artillery wheels, old style tires and rims. I agree this is a World War I era car, 1914-1918, more toward the 1912-14 era. These people were no doubt prosperous in a middle class way.

    Don't think it's a GM car. Doesn't have the Packard louvers and tall radiator filler. Not a very graceful car, rather industrial from the photo at least.

    The problem with cars of this age is that they made so many makes of car back then---well over 1500 separate brands---and many of these were in fact "assembled" cars, that is, the automaker merely bought parts from suppliers and bolted together a car out of them. So the assembled cars rarely have distinctive body work.

    Another factor is that some cars were made only locally, say Ohio, and never went outside the state.

    I like to blow up the photos and try to read off the wheel hubs or hood ornament. It's a lot easier when you have a look at the front of the car.
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