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2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Think Honda need to have a close look their public relations department, how many people like me got fed up with waiting and have been seduced into buying something else.
The ford focus is certainly a machine to keep your eye on, the ST range looks to be the dogs gonads.
For the aforementioned buyer the hybrid would be fine as long as it did not mean a sacrifice in performance. Clearly this car is too much of a compromise (9.7 0-62, 122 hp) to satisfy any sportcar enthusiast.
Sadly,it looks like Honda is abandoning the fun to drive sportscar market.
The original CRX SI was 90 hp or so, 2000 pounds or so. This one had better clock in around 2500 pounds like they promised, and has 1/3 more horsepower, so should have a better power to weight ratio than the original.
This model was NEVER a drag racer. We haven't seen a slalom number yet, but I bet it will shame lots of expensive sports and sporty cars.
And they haven't driven a manual with the NA gearing yet, so 9.7 0-60 is in doubt anyway. I am betting on 8-8.5, which is plenty fast off the line for this model.
Bottom line is it needs to be really fun to drive, and you can't always predict that by the numbers, which is why I made the earlier remark that we need to see some first drives to get a better sense of this thing at this point....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
See previous post for the concepts shown in London 2008 Honda OSM
Neither has any attributes I am interested in.
Give me a focused sport package every time. The 0-60 sprint is WAAAY overrated.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Couldn't agree more, nippononly, in the sense that it gets a disproportionate amount of attention and attribution. It's only one factor of total performance.
The biggest problem with this car is Honda chose to make it a hybrid. A gasoline engine only would have been a much better choice as it would have been faster, cheaper and lighter and if would have been attractive a to wider market than this car which will appeal to very small market.
CRX was always a niche car - they sold in small numbers but had a fiercely devoted following. If Honda isn't prepared for CRZ sales to be somewhere below those of Miata, it has made the wrong choice bringing this car back. But I think Honda probably is prepared for that, which is why they have borrowed so much from Insight and Fit to design and build this thing - keeps the costs down.
And while CVT sprint numbers may be around 9.5 secs to 60 mph, I will bet anyone here $1 that the manual will get there in 8.5 or less. ;-)
It seems clear to me that the CVT-equipped model is geared for fuel economy just like the Insight that shares its powertrain, but the manual will be geared for quick acceleration I think - hence the low fuel economy numbers by comparison (and they are a LOT lower). Makes you wonder why they didn't build a model with the 1.8 from the Civic - 140 hp would be plenty to make a really light car fast and fun, and it would probably get about the same mileage without all the hybrid hyjinks.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It’s a shame there is on option for the 1.8 Civic engine and as a non hybrid would be a better seller than the current setup, maybe Honda will consider this at a later date to retrieve sales numbers if this CRZ doesn’t sell.
Regarding two seater sports being niche car then you should se the amount of Audi TTs, BMW Z4s, Mazda mx5 let alone the number of 4 seater coupes on the UK roads, if the US does not take to this car then I think Europe will take up the short full.
This providing the CRZ can compete 0 to 60 in 9 seconds is not going to get a look in its slower that the Civic
The wife bought a new Civic yesterday and they are expecting the CRZ in the show rooms in the summer. It goes on sale next week in Japan and they have 4500 pre sales already so will not be long before we hear more.
Have a look at the links below new articles are coming every day now.
http://www.insideline.com/honda/cr-z/honda-cr-z-priced-in-japan-from-25500.html
http://www.nitrobahn.com/news/done-mugen-tunes-the-honda-cr-z-hybrid-coupe/
It will be in the show room on the 5th of June.
Prices here start at £16,000 for the base model and £19,000 for the GT .same price as the 1.8 Civic
TOKYO -- Honda Motor Co.'s new CR-Z sporty hybrid is the car that nearly wasn't.
The wedge-shaped, two-seat hatchback was almost killed twice because engineers weren't convinced it was a unique concept and because U.S. bosses originally didn't want it.
When Norio Tomobe was appointed chief engineer of the project in the summer of 2004, the car was still a blank sheet. And in the early years, the working model had a traditional gasoline engine.
.....going hybrid brought its own problems. Today critics assail the CR-Z as neither especially fuel-efficient nor sporty. And Tomobe is quick to admit at least one thing he wishes the CR-Z had: "more horsepower."
He said he would like a Type R sporty version of the CR-Z someday with a spunkier power-to-weight ratio that lives up to its sporty styling.
Yessssss!! :-)
But in the meantime, the CR-Z is an exercise in compromise. It was conceived as a 1.3-liter car for Europe but was given a 1.5-liter engine to appeal to U.S. drivers. It aims to be sporty with a six-speed stick-shift option but also comes in a version with continuously variable transmission to squeeze out extra fuel economy.
The result: a 122-hp package that delivers a 0-to-62-mph time that, at 9.7 seconds, barely edges the Toyota Prius. And fuel economy is only 36/38 mpg, well below the Prius' 51/48.
Note that here they are once again quoting the 0-60 for the CVT model. I still hold out hopes that the 6-speed will be significantly faster, and I wonder if the U.S. isn't the only place offering the 6-speed, which is why we don't have 0-60 times for that model yet.
Tetsuo Iwamura, president of American Honda Motor Co., was skeptical right up until he drove the final prototype.
"He kept saying they don't need a hybrid," recalled Tomobe.
"In the American market, people equate hybrids with the Prius," he said of Iwamura's cool response. "If the hybrid is sporty, it's going to confuse the customers and dealers."
.......While driving early prototypes, Iwamura relentlessly derided the car, Tomobe said. But when he got behind the wheel of the final version, his reaction changed.
Suddenly, the project was a go.
.......Tomobe, who cut his teeth as chief engineer on Japanese market projects such as the Mobilio Spike and Elysion minivans, is unapologetic about the CR-Z's compromises.
"I'm satisfied," he said. "This is what the future of sports cars will be for Honda. We are not pursuing absolute maximum speed. What we aim for is a car that is exhilarating to drive."
On paper, the CR-Z's power may seem lackluster. But sporty handling makes up for it, Tomobe said. The three-mode drive system helps by delivering extra throttle responsiveness.
Drivers can select normal, economy or sporty driving modes. In sporty mode, drivers of the CVT can simulate stepped shifting manually by flipping paddle shifters on the steering wheel.
.......Not only is its engine larger than the Insight's 1.3-liter, but the CR-Z's engine has 16 valves instead of the Insight's eight. This is to help increase power at higher rpm and improve efficiency at lower speeds.
Up to 2,300 rpm, one intake valve per cylinder is closed to limit fuel consumption. Above that, all four valves are working to optimize power.
The CR-Z is also the first Honda hybrid to get a six-speed manual transmission
You ready for the sad part?
Critics say Honda could score by offering a gasoline-only CR-Z. But Tomobe said the company has ruled that out. The car's identity is too closely linked to being a hybrid, he said.
......Said Tomobe: "The CR-Z is supposed to be an intelligent sports car."
So it seems like it's a hybrid first, a sporty car second, despite what they are saying. :-(
When you look at the stats, it does pretty poorly as a hybrid:
Hybrids head-to-head: Specs of Honda and Toyota hybrids
Honda CR-Z 122hp, 36/38 mpg (CVT); 31/37 (manual)
Honda Insight 98 hp 40/43 mpg
Honda Civic Hybrid 110 hp, 40/45
Toyota Prius 98 hp 51/48
And that's before you even throw in the respective weights, of which CRZ is the lightest.
Generally, a car that doesn't know what it is trying to be ends up being no better than average at most things, which is what I'm afraid of with this car. It does look, though, like it will hit just about the right spot for what I need in a commute car. It would be nice to have a commute car that is also fun to drive. So we will see.....
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100308/OEM03/303089966/1117- -
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I am further appalled by his statement that this is the future of Honda sports cars--if this is the future (ie. slow, poor performing, expensive hybrids) then I don't want to be part of this dismal future.
Finally, what does he mean the CR-Z is suppose to be an" intelligent sports car"? .
Does this mean a non-hybrid sportscar like a Ferrari is a "dumb sports car"? Or is he saying that people who want a non-hybrid sports car with more horse power and speed are stupid?
While I appreciate Mr. Tomobe explaining the CR-Z, I still remain unconvinced that the right decisions were made for this car.
The jury is still out as to whether enough buyers will be willing to pay $25,500 - 28,000r for such a sadly lacking car.
That might be how the CRZ is a "smart" sporty coupe. For $20K, you won't find anything to outhandle it, and I can believe that even with 120 hp it could be a lot of fun to drive if the handling and the high-revving engine are there.
The problem is the remark you referred to earlier: that the car will be "too closely identified with hybrids" to offer a gasoline engine. This is marketing-speak (which right away is a bad sign for CRZ and indeed for Honda as a whole) for "we want to sell more hybrids and nobody bought the Civic hybrid because they couldn't tell it apart from the gas Civics". So basically, this is their second Prius-fighter (with even worse mileage than the FIRST Prius-fighter, the Insight! What a joke), and sport comes a distant second.
So we will see what they produce. It could be a very fun little sport coupe, and I feel I should reiterate that there really isn't much you can buy for $20K that is genuinely fun to drive. The closest thing would be the Miata (or the GTI depending on your preferred poison), both of which are $5000 more to buy.
The problem would be if the FIT gives it a run for its money. For $3000 less to buy and only a small hit for mileage, I would just go with the Fit probably....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But Honda originally announced they would target a $20K price point for this car, and since it is basically a 3-door Insight with a few extra bits and a better engine, I think they will get close to that mark. Almost everything in it will come off the Insight or out of the Fit.
At $25K they will sell almost none, and I suspect they know that. Just look at all the good $25K choices, all with the same sporty character and two more useable seats, not to mention all much faster off the line.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I agree with you if I am correct about the price Honda will not sell very many of them--however, judging by the questionable decisions that were made when Honda developed the CR-Z-- Honda may actually believe then can easily see the 15,000 units for $25,000+.
"SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- 'Honda Motor Co.'s /quotes/comstock/!7267 (JP:7267 3,270, +25.00, +0.77%) /quotes/comstock/13*!hmc/quotes/nls/hmc (HMC 36.13, -0.17, -0.46%) CR-Z hybrid sports car has drawn more than 7,000 orders only two weeks since its Feb. 26 debut, according to a report Friday. The Nikkei business daily reported that the orders represent about 60% of the annual sales target for the car of 12,000 units. The CR-Z, a gasoline-electric hybrid, can travel up to 25 kilometers (15 miles) on a liter (0.26 gallons) of gas, according to the report.' "
Hold the base price to $19,995 Honda!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
http://cr-z.honda.com/specifications/
They list it with a curb weight that misses the 2500-pound target curb weight by about 8%, with the MT at 2670 pounds.
However, it will make 128 lb-ft of torque at 1000 rpm. That is the same as the '94-'01 Integra which weighed the same, but at 1000 rpm instead of the 4000 rpm the Integra achieved it at. That ought to make for decent launches.
Indeed, the Integra only made about 18 more horses, and that was a very fun car to drive, still is. And it made maybe 30-31 mpg on a really good day, which will be about 10 less than what the CRZ will do, by my guess.
Plus, the base CRZ won't be the cheap-out model that the base Insight is, in fact I am thinking there isn't much I would want from the EX, certainly nothing I would pay extra for. I dislike HIDs and NAV, wouldn't pay a nickel for those. That just leaves aluminum pedals and shifter and a subwoofer, stuff I can easily put in myself at any time if I am so inclined.
So if the base CRZ is priced at $19,995, it is still at the top of my list. I realize lots of people want lots of different things out of this car, so YMMV.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Honda must be happy with itself right now. The recently released CR-Z hybrid sports-eco car has racked up 10 times the sales Honda was expecting, with 10,000 cars being snapped up at dealerships across Japan
......A 113-hp, 1.5-liter VTEC powers the car. That might not sound exciting, but with a 13-hp electric motor assisting low-rpm response, the little Honda offers adequate acceleration. The metal-hydride battery pack under the trunk space supplies the voltage powering the flywheel-mounted brushless motor, supplying 58 lb-ft of torque instantly, allowing us to zip through Tokyo traffic effortlessly.
There are sport, normal and eco modes, with eco decreasing throttle response to boost fuel economy. The six-speed manual was a pleasure, offering a short and precise stroke--typical Honda. We also drove the CVT-equipped car, which is marginally more economical, returning 58.8 mpg compared with the manual's 53.0 mpg. These are Japanese figures, so don't expect cars to be quite so economical in the real world. During our drive through town, we averaged 35 mpg, a respectable figure considering Tokyo's clogged streets.
The CR-Z shares most underpinnings with the Insight but boasts a shorter wheelbase and wider front and rear tracks. The CR-Z comes alive in corners, but it might be a little too stiff for the daily commute. The car is quiet at low rpm and shuts off at stops.
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20100414/CARREVIEWS/100419951
I still have a lot of hope for this car, although I do wish they would offer here the 4-seat version they are making for Japan. Having two back seats, however small, is so helpful for those occasional times I need to cram a third person in my car.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd
As to performance I assume they are comparing the CRZ with the less powerful 140 TDI (140 bhp) that’s slower than the 170 TDI that I drive, even so my money would be on the Scirocco.
Will have to test drive the CRZ in June when they will be available just to see what I have missed it certainly sounds interesting but I will not be trading in my Scirocco.
Will post how the test drive goes.
On another note see an old CRX today it still has style and it gave a good account of its self but he could not catch me.
I think I will be driving mine in sport mode all the time, and since we don't get the Scirocco in the States, I'm wracking my brain thinking of anything this really competes with head to head.
I guess the base Mini Cooper would be it. $20K base price, 117 hp, 0-60 in under 9 seconds, rated 28/37 for the manual. And a back seat, which the CRZ doesn't have. If Mini can pull those numbers from their car without diesel or hybrid parts, why can't Honda? :confuse:
But I still like the looks of this thing enough to be first in line for a test drive come fall.....there are a lot of things I dislike about the Mini's interior, which is where one spends all of one's time when driving, of course.
Edit...of course the other competitor which pretty much goes head to head is the Golf TDI, which at $24K is several thousand dollars more, but which has better acceleration and fuel economy to make up for it. That will be a good back-to-back, Mini vs CRZ vs Golf TDI. I bet the other two have VW beat in the handling department by a goodly margin....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Also, I 'm going to guess that the CR-Z will start in the low 20's, so it will split the two in cost. The dollar hasn't gained on the yen for awhile now, but I'd like to be wrong.
23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd
And if the CRZ ends up being a letdown, I will probably end up in a Mini next year, with all the unwanted bright bits in the interior, and the annoying toggle switches and the pie-sized center speedo next to my knee, about four yards BELOW my line of sight.
But if I have to write off the CRZ, I WILL give the Golf TDI a look-see.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
One other dark horse for my next car is the new Fiesta. I will check one out when they become available in the summer, and they are supposed to handle well but have a lousy shifter. One thing I just can't abide is a lousy shifter. :-/
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Just looked at the price of a fiesta here you will get two Fiesta’s for the price of a CRZ in the UK.
A Focus ST-2 is the same price as the base CRZ, if your thinking of one of these it will leave the CRZ at the side of the road wile its still trying to engage first gear but it might not do much for fuel economy.
Edit: how did this get to the Hybrid Vehicles board? It belongs in Future Vehicles, which it still is.....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
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In the UK we get a rear seat this is black cloth and blends into the back shelf.
The rear seat is nothing to write home about and would only be suitable for a small child to sit in but ok for dumping the odd bag. Boot space is at a premium because of the batteries under the floor
The car its self gets a second look the dealer had one in white and one in black but the white looks better.
The GT model is £19,000 but I would guess you could negotiate a good discount as you can get a Scirocco (all be it a base model) for this price.
No I have yet to have a drive and as I am off on holiday to Turkey tomorrow for two weeks so I will have to wait but I have been promise a test drive even though there is not much chance of me buying one.
23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd
23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd
Not fast enough to run with proper sport coupes, but just right to be a commute car that isn't boring to drive (like my current one is)......and being only a 2-seater, I only need one other person in it to qualify for the carpool lane and reduced toll on the bridges......
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Of course, Honda could have easily avoided this problem it it had done the smart thing and forego the hybrid system altogether. Or if it had to be a hybrd--Honda should have given at a gasoline engine that produced at least 180 hp.
Yes, if they had just put the 1.8L gas engine in it from the Civic, it would probably weigh around 2300 pounds, which combined with the 140 hp would be a really fun car I think. And it would still make 26/34 (the rating of the Civic with the 5-speed) or better - probably better because it would be lighter. And then give it the 6-speed, and you could get that highway number up by another couple of points.
But if Honda had the HSD system that Toyota has, I bet this car could make a solid 50 mpg - Prius is right in this ballpark power-wise, is heavier, and we all know how that one does for mpg.....Honda needs to completely rework its hybrid powertrains until they are competitive with other automakers, and use smaller gas engines for better fuel economy in the meantime.
Imagine the Fit's engine, with an 8000-rpm redline, in the CRZ! I'm thinking 150 hp from a 1.5, with combined fuel economy of 32-33 even without hybrid trickery.....and a 300-pound weight savings as a consequence of not having the hybrid's battery pack in there.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It has a 2lt petrol hybrid engine mid engine rear wheel drive based on a fit chassis but made of aluminium.
Autocar mag 23 June 2010 page 8 (this is a uk publication)
23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd