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Toyota Prius vs VW Golf TDI
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What's putting them back to the main radar screen then? diesel, MPG, price for fuel. Would TDI be as sexy if it is only a more efficent gas engine that give you the same MPG?? diesel is nothing but a variety of gas.
The small cult of followers now finally have something to brag about and cheer outloud about it. But does that make a difference? They are and will still only be a very small %, after the fun wear off...
PS
According to Edmund's inventory. There is not a Sportswagen TDI available in San Diego County.
VW, Audi has the best interiors in the business but on the opposite side of the spectrum has the worst electronic gremlins I've ever seen. What is the benefit of a nice interior if the car is in the shop half the time? LOL :confuse:
I would imagine the TDI has special seats to absorb all the vibrations from the diesel engine. I still find it amazing how a diesel engine stays together with such high compression. Unfortunately way too much buzzy feelings transmit through the steering wheel and gear shifter making for a very uncomfortable city car. The Prius OTOH is smooth/silent as silk. Love it!!!
Toyota Hybrids Blocked From U.S. Due to Patent Issues?
Toyota faces patent infringement claims from a company called Paice LLC. Paice filed an official complaint with the U.S. International Trade Commission on Thursday in Washington, D.C. The fling, not immediately available for public viewing, claims that Toyota has infringed upon several of the patents awarded to Paice in regards to drive trains for hybrid vehicles. Paice's filing seeks a complete ban on several Toyota models from out market including the Prius, Highlander Hybrid, Camry Hybrid, and several Lexus hybrid models.
http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1034920_toyota-hybrids-blocked-from-u-s-due-- to-patent-issues
The VW TDIs may soon pass Toyota hybrid sales. VW sold same percentage Jetta models as the Prius in the Cash 4 Clunkers program. We have to assume most were diesel as they have the best mileage advantage for trades with 18 MPG clunkers
http://www.autoobserver.com/2009/09/new-math-cash-for-clunkers-numbers-dont-add-- up.html.
I know my state doesn't. But somehow I'm not surprised NY does. :P
Golf tdi = great hwy mileage and impressive torque, good city mpg, fun to drive on a daily basis, decent looking, not the best reliability track record, high resale value
There is my on topic comparison. Merely my opinion. Sorry for offending prius owners earlier.
Vancouver has various taxi companies that used Priuses for the last 10 years and here's the shocker despite hundreds of thousands of miles of driving there has been no reported battery replacement. NONE! A larger number of Vancouver taxis are becoming Priuses because of this battery reliability.
I drive a 83 MB300D. A while ago in Europe many MB diesels were like mine because of their low long term costs. The same applies to the Prius in Vancouver.
Battery replacement costs is more of a worry than a fact since batteries in Priuses are hardly ever replaced unlike expensive V6 transmission on various Honda/Acura vehicles
Unknown resale values if the battery dies? Indeed! But when does that happen? Sort of like saying unknown resale values for a Golf when the transmission dies (which ofcourse is not more frequent than other models)
All future resale values are unknown. But based on past figures it's been over 10 years now and Prius resale values at least here in Canada are doing quite well. And if I am not mistaken USA has had the Prius for over 10 years and I am sure resale values are not unknown or are not atrocious when compared to other cars.
So let me rephrase the comparison:
Golf tdi = great hwy mileage and impressive torque, good city mpg, fun to drive on a daily basis, decent looking, terrible and almost consistently bad reliability ratings, high resale value > How long has VW been making cars? How long does it take this company to figure how to make reliable cars? To say that the new VWs are different in terms of reliability is like saying all politicans are different because they are far more honest now. VW has a multi-decade history of building sub-par cars. The fact that one or two VW models have a recently good reliability ratings means nothing until we find out their 3 to 5 years ratings.
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Prius= great city and hwy mileage, low poluter,, odd handling and looks, very reliable, great technology in terms of its drivetrain, highly space efficient interior. No masochistic torture for a fifth rear seat passenger like what is experienced in a Golf/Jetta.
Green supporter? I am not a green supporter at all and I dont mean to offend mother nature by saying so. Why am I driving a Prius? I love the technology that this car has. And what makes the Prius so attractive is its reliablity as a high technology car. Very few high tech cars are reliable especially among the German Marques. I love the engineering involved in terms of its focus on fuel efficiency. I love the fact that this car will consume less fuel from countries that are hostile to our democracies. . I love this car because no other car company can make a car like a Prius. NONE!
Have you noticed all the press releases from every major car company in the world these past five years. How they are going to introduce Prius beaters ? Even VW these past many years expressed their desire to build hybrids. But why the great delay? Because every auto maker knows they cant make a Prius beater no matter how hard they try. That is a lesson that was learned by Honda with its Insight.
Knit the Prius to my womb?
Wow talk about a normal debate here.
Apparently you are not even capable of raising one single factual point to debate with regards to my last post and I guess that is why you have to resort to such low-brow prissy respones.
I was hoping someone here would find many flaws with my arguments so this debate can continue. But apparently that is not the case. Thanks for making it sooo easy. :P
HINT: there is a flaw in my statement below:
I drive a 83 MB300D. A while ago in Europe many MB diesels were like mine because of their low long term costs. The same applies to the Prius in Vancouver.
What I really meant was that many European taxis were like my MB300D just like many Vanouver taxis are like my Prius. Both cars share one thing in common: Low long term maintenace costs.
Automotive enthusiasts seem to feel the same way about Prius that I do, it is technologically interesting, however, a TDI is the one they prefer to drive.
Hybrids, Diesels and a Smart
First place TDI
Fourth place Prius
I'm no Toyota hater nor am I a VW fanatic.
HiLux diesel is a vehicle that is #1 in it's class IMHO.
HiLux D4D is rated at 28 mpg. If only Toyota would offer it's wonderful D4D engines in Tacoma and in other Toyota vehicles.
That's a real good thing to know since I traded in my 07 BMW 335i for a Prius.
A VW TDI sounds very impressive. Wear your helmet if you drive one. :P
Just to clarify a couple things. The 2nd generation Prius that included MY 2004 to 2009 did not arrive here till October 2003. So those models have been here less than 6 years. The first model Prius sold here was 2001-2003. Very few of those were sold. They did have battery issues. None of the 2nd generation have reached their 10 year battery warranty, mandated by CARB rules. So we do not know how they will do over the long haul. If they are still going after 15 years with no big expenses I would agree on their longevity.
That said, the real beauty of the VW TDI is longevity. With many owners keeping their diesels 10-20 even 30 or more years. I see diesel Rabbits and Dashers on Craigslist on a regular basis.
great city and hwy mileage, ...TRUE
low poluter, ...TRUE
"green" supporter, ...TRUE
odd handling and looks, ...TRUE
very reliable, ...TRUE
expensive battery replacement cost ...unequivically FALSE. The batteries never need to be replaced. For hundreds of thousands of NA drivers the cost is $0 in nearly every case...however in isolated cases the cost may range from $200 to $2599 which is hardly 'expensive'.
and mostly unknown used car value after said battery dies. again unequivically FALSE. Since the batteries appear to be living as long as the engine and body with noone actually knowing how far above 250,000 miles the batteries will go, they essentially will last the life of the vehicle with no replacement. Thus this is a moot point.
What is absolutely certain now after 8 years here is that the Prius holds its value far better than any other ICE-only vehicle mass-marketed in similar volumes, gasoline or diesel.
This isn't a diesel-only thread nor a hybrid-only thread. It's put out there by Edmunds to create confrontations between two strongly-held viewpoints.
All that can be said is...'to each their own, both positions are right'....just keep it factual.
http://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/cto/1362482016.html
http://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/cto/1358339500.html
http://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/cto/1358248000.html
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sgv/cto/1358524627.html
Or even better, how about a 1976 Corolla for $3650? That is about what I paid for a '76 Corolla new--talk about holding value!
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lgb/cto/1354937022.html
What is absolutely certain now after 8 years here is that the Prius holds its value far better than any other ICE-only vehicle mass-marketed in similar volumes, gasoline or diesel.
KBB private party value is higher for 2001 VW Golf TDI $5965 than for 2001 Toyota Prius $5335 with mileage of 150,000 used for both computations.
MSRP when new
Prius $22000
VW Golf GLS TDI $17400
Golf TDI has superior retained value and lower initial cost.
It is absolutely certain that your statement is incorrect.
Diesel wins the retained value.
So pretty much a non-differentiator then, eh?
And what is the replacement cost of these batteries.? Minimal especially when compared to the cost of replacing my 1999 BMW's 323i's Air Bag ICU.
This whole battery issue is an irrelevant bogey man issue dreamt up here in this forum
Oh and by the way do you know how the future generation of diesels will do? These low emission diesels do involve far more complex electronics than my 83 MB 300D or that Diesel VW Dasher you found on Craiglist. Believe me longetivity of 30 years with these new generation diesels are likely to be far more different than those grandfather diesels we see on the roads today. What do you think VW repair costs will be like if those electronics related to low emission begin to malfunction? Nope not a pretty thought indeed.
In fact owning a Prius long term provides more piece of mind than any modern VW diesel today.
We got a group of auto enthusiast testers testing a car for its driving dynamics and performance and they dont like the Prius too much.
Aint that a shocker.
If I ever buy a performance car it will have no fuel efficiency pretensions just like my fuel miser Prius has no performance car pretensions.
I want either fuel efficiency or performance. But not both. Why compromise? Owning a top notch performance car and a fuel miser is not a contradiction since both cars offer the best of both worlds. A TDI in itself is neither a top notch performance car or a fuel miser. It's just a compromise. A Prius is the "Real McCoy" in terms of fuel misers.
Hardly. Every magazine article about the hybrids and especially the Prius questioned the longevity of the traction battery. The price from Toyota has come down over the last 5 years from over $5000 to somewhere between $2000 and $3000. Until we see them last 10 years without replacement the question still looms. That is over 4 years from now. And just for your information on my trip to Victoria BC a couple years ago I talked to a Prius Taxi driver. He told me there had been batteries replaced by Toyota. We don't know as they don't tell.
In fact owning a Prius long term provides more piece of mind than any modern VW diesel today.
Your piece of mind, not mine. I drive some roads that have high winds with people in Prius inching along to keep from being blown off the road. The Prius is a fine car for a flatlander in an urban setting. If given a Prius I would trade it while it has good resale value. They are noisy little rough riding cars that don't handle worth a hoot.
Performance and handling are subject to where you plan to drive. If you want super performance and handling I think the 335D would satisfy all but the Porsche crowd. If you just like tooling around in mountain winding roads as I do the Golf TDI should be a dandy option.
You can also have ultimate utility, excellent handling and performance in a BMW X5 diesel. And get better mileage on the road than most CamCords. There are options to cover a lot more of the consumers needs than are offered for sale in the USA.
Best suited to everyday driving is not testing for top notch performance.
The shocker is that you interpret a test of high mileage vehicles as a measure of performance. I agree that driving dynamics are important and unlike Prius drivers I refuse to dismiss driving dynamics.
TDI #1, TDI #2, Fusion Hybrid #3 is not a shocker either. The only area that Prius is a winner is in overall mileage. Prius is a compromise in every other area and is not a winner for everyday driving.
dewey So let me get this straight here.
We got a group of auto enthusiast testers testing a car for its driving dynamics and performance and they dont like the Prius too much.
Aint that a shocker.
If I ever buy a performance car it will have no fuel efficiency pretensions just like my fuel miser Prius has no performance car pretensions.
quotePrius never made any of us want to go for a spin.-end
That is the absolute gospel. I have gone several times to lunch with a friend that has a 2009 Prius. He loves it. Then his other vehicle is a Toyota Tacoma. So he had no real reference of what rides and drives nicely. It was always a pleasure to get out of that car and back into my Lexus or Sequoia. Neither of which I would consider great vehicles. Finding a compromise between great mileage and fun driving will always end up with a German vehicle. I have high hopes for the 2010 Golf. Sadly we may not get the Golf GTD with the high performance 2.0L Diesel engine. America land of the clunkers.
Here's my real-world data for those 3 generations I owned during that time, combined:
184,852 MILES total
3,924.4 GALLONS total
47.1 MPG overall
Let's see an automatic non-hybrid diesel do that.
SHOW ME THE DATA.
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If would have driven a diesel TDI it would have delivered 40 mpg plus and at only 185,000 miles it would still have years of life left.
184,852 miles of some really boring driving. What good is 47 mpg if you can't have some fun driving?
Say it with me Prius guy:
The Golf TDI is fun to drive (or at least more fun to drive than Prius).
The Golf TDI is fuel efficient (just not as fuel efficient as a Prius).
The Golf TDI has character (just like the Prius has character - just diff styles).
The Golf TDI is good for the environment (much more so than a gasser).
And I, diesel guy, admit the following with ease:
The Prius is very fuel efficient (the most fuel efficient car in this segment).
The Prius has a great reliability record (impressive tech that lasts, well done 'Yota).
The Prius is very good for the environment (plus, green = good community points).
The Prius does not handle very well, nor is it really designed to handle well.
Can everyone agree these above items are true? I know why each side hates the other but lets agree on these. This is my last ditch effort at reasoning with Prius guy. Make me proud Prius guy.
Do you honestly anyone is actually going to believe that?
The dealer paid decent $$$ for the trade-in.
They were my contribution to the used market. So, someone who wasn't looking for a new model had something available to buy.
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Notice how each claim is vague.
Not quantifying is a common greenwashing technique.
Let's see actual numbers.
Again, SHOW ME THE DATA.
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54.1 MPG is the average in my 2010 as of 6,840 summer miles.
What's yours?
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