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Toyota Prius vs VW Golf TDI
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Comments
Obviously neither does Toyota. That's why they're doing field testing of 500 cars before they ramp up for production in 2012. What's your rush? Can't wait to buy one of those PHEV Priuses?
One of the best attributes of the Prius is its reliability. Why would Toyota want to jeopardize that by rushing new technology to market?
A lot of trips in our household are less than 12 miles roundtrip, at city speeds (much less than 60 mph), so that will compute to, what kind of mpg do you think? Pretty high I'd say.
34 mpg EPA composite rating
Prius 4-door 1.8L 134 hp CVT automatic $22,000 - www.toyota.com
50 mpg EPA composite rating
Consumer Reports defined a $/mpg as a way to rate the cost for any given mileage. So this allows us to use the listed prices by both VW and Toyota along with the EPA mileage to calculate the $/mpg:
$23,889 / 34 mpg = $702.62 / MPG - Golf dollars per mpg
$22,000 / 50 mpg = $440.00 / MPG - Prius dollars per mpg
Ok, what would be the price of an equivalent Prius using the Golf dollars per mpg:
$702.62 * 50 mpg = $35,131 - Prius priced at the same Golf dollars per mpg
So we have this range of Prius prices, $22,000 to $35,131, to compare the 4-door, automatic transmissions and similar displacement engines.
Bob Wilson
VW Golf ahead in the following list:
Handling
braking
safety
wind bucking
ride
ergonomics
quality of materials
Not to mention the fact that Toyota uses insulation in the Prius wiring that seems to attract rats and mice. Another dirty little secret.
Rats love Prius wiring
Price - Ebay item - vehicle
$22,950 - 350251239669 - 2010 Prius
$25,297 - 360191062085 - 2010 Jetta TDI
I bought our first Prius in 2005 through Ebay and flew to Fort Worth Texas to drive it back. A used, 2003 Prius, I got it for $1,000 under Kelly Blue Book value and added 70,000 miles at over 52 MPG.
When I bought my wife's new 2010 Prius, it was a special offer and I was able to select my dealership. I choose the highest ranked dealership in North Alabama even though it is 45 miles away and I have been pleased with their service.
Costco has a car buying service and it includes the Prius. This means we can actually shop ... we have options. Heck, even Edmunds, our host, has a car location service.
Bob Wilson
Have you driven the 2010 Golf and Prius back-to-back to compare the ride, wind bucking, ergonomics etc.? I haven't, so I haven't made any conclusions yet on how the two cars compare in those areas.
As for rats chewing wiring in a Prius... rats and mice chew wires, and lots of other stuff. That behavior is not restricted to the Prius. I suppose next you are going to try to make some link between the Prius and H1N1. :sick:
http://askville.amazon.com/mice-chew-electrical-wires/DiscussionBoard.do?request- Id=8003348&page=1
qutoe-
The Prius gets a $400 price increase, starting October 18. The base model of the popular hybrid will now be sold in limited quantities to fleet buyers only. The lowest-end Prius available to the general public will cost $23,150. The top model will be priced at $28,420. -end
Bob Wilson
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I drove the 2010 Golf TDI today and I will be purchasing one very soon. The fit and finish is excellent, loaded with premium features, it stops on a dime, the paddle shifters work wonders, it has almost as much torque as my 2007 Audi A4 3.2 (243 v. 236) and at 30/42 MPG!
If you actually love tearing up a back road the Golf TDI is an excellent alternative (opportunity?) to a hybrid.
PWR is available in Prius and works well for situations like hard acceleration when making a left turn at an intersection from a dead stop.
As for the advertised MPG, you can easily exceed it by just driving normal in ECO mode. My 2010 average with 10,362 miles since the end of May is 52.5 MPG.
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ and search Prius problems. in the 2006 model has 676 problems reported, whereas 2006 VW Jetta TDI Model has counted around 80 problems. Assuming 40000 Jetta TDIs for 2006 were sold (103,331 VW Jettas in US, and TDIs were around 40% of Jetta sales) and Prius in 2006 sold 107000 units (according to wikipedia), which has more problems per capita? Prius. Prius has less problems in 2009 than VW TDI, but Prius in 2010 shows more problems than VW TDI, according to ODI.
Apparently Toyota Prius is incapable/unreliable with those simple functions, as reported by Toyota and the 2000 who reported/confirmed the issues to NHTSA and 200 dead/injured toyota customers due to the egregious design flaw.
Vague use of the word "problem" is enlighting.
Of the 676 problems, look at how many of them had a topic of "headlight" or "headlamp". Turns out, almost all of them (1,497 instances of those words).
Of the 80 problems, look at how many of them had a topic of "transmission". Turns out, it's somewhere around half (178 instances of the word).
In other words, the use of HID lights turned out to be an issue as they age and they are no longer offered. And fortunately, they have absolutely nothing to do with the propulsion sytem... not the transmission.
Prius unintended acceleration.
Truck frames rusting and breaking.
Engine sludge.
Yep, infallible.....
Each HID light has an independent controllers.
.
TDI wins over Prius
Audi A3 TDI earns a win over the Prius and the Golf TDI is even better and less expensive than the A3.
3,667 - Jetta, Sports wagen, Golf and Touareg TDI diesels
9,617 - Prius
Bob Wilson
There is one market where both the Prius and TDI vehicles compete head-to-head, the USA. In this market, the Prius ran 3x all TDI vehicles. If you consider all Toyota hybrids, 14,473, versus all TDI vehicles, 3,667, nearly 4x all TDI vehicles. Then if you add the other manufacturers making hybrids, 20,003, is it more than 5x all TDI vehicles. In a fair and open market, the USA, hybrids are doing OK.
By EPA rated size, compact cars, no doubt the Jetta and Golf TDIs are fine cars. But if someone wants 25% better mileage in a full-size sedan, the Prius is the answer ... if you can find one. What is funny is last year's "Green Human" cross country test where they deliberately tried to drive a Jetta friendly, Prius hostile profile, both cars came in 40 MPG Prius and 41 MPG Jetta. That was using the smaller 1.5L Prius. The current, 1.8L Prius is about +3-5 MPG better on the highway at all speeds tested, up to 80 MPH in my testing.
Then there is the problem of how many people actually give in urban areas and drive in City traffic. The TDIs don't even come close to competing in stop-and-go traffic, not even close.
The 1.8L, 2010 Prius has more space, better highway mileage, and superior city mileage. Where they compete in the open USA market, at least for November, the sales figures have been nice for Toyota and the other hybrid makers.
Bob Wilson
They are both available in China the number one market, as well as the EU. NO ONE wants a Prius when given several choices. The neutered VW TDI offered here with phony EPA mileage figures has a lot of negative publicity against it. VW is selling all they bring to the dealers.
The US and Japan remain alone discouraging the switch to the more efficient fuel DIESEL. I applaud the Germans for persevering in their bringing diesel vehicles to the USA. It is an uphill battle fought against the oil companies and their lackeys in CARB and the EPA.
I will repeat. If you are so unfortunate as to live in a big city and have to commute in stop and go traffic, a Prius is probably ok. If you like to drive and get out on the open road, not getting bucked around by the wind, forget the Prius. Go for a German diesel.
Life is a compromise. I would not compromise enough to own a Prius. Maybe an Escape Hybrid if it did not take 10 years to pay back the premium.
PS
If you are looking for another Prius the dealers here in San Diego have at least 90 in stock. From about $23k to $34k. You would get more for your dollars with a VW TDI if you can find one. Check Mossy Toyota. They have 51 Prius on the lot, with at least a dozen over $31k.
What is your opinion of supply and demand? VW Golf and Jetta TDI have fewer days supply and days on lot before they sell than Prius.
In addition to modest USA sales, the biggest problem the TDIs face are the user reports. The EPA web site, www.fueleconomy.gov, collects user mileage reports:
50.5 MPG (63 vehicles) - range 37 - 63 MPG
49.2 MPG (10 vehicles) - range 42 - 58 MPG - 97% lower milage
39.9 MPG (27 vehicles) - range 33 - 50 MPG - 78% lower mileage
32.5 MPG (11 vehicles) - range 27 - 47 MPG - 64% lower mileage *
Ok, let's see, interior space:
116 ft{3}
101 ft{3} - 87% smaller
107 ft{3} - 92% smaller
107 ft{3} - 92% smaller *
For some folks, mileage and interior space are unimportant and for them, a compact car like a Honda Insight or a Jetta TDI would be excellent choices. In the meanwhile, USA customers in November voted with their wallets and at least three Prius for every TDI of any type.
There you have it, customers, voting with their own money, again. Well, better luck with December sales. Maybe we'll all move to diesel paradises like China or Europe or Montana and take up dental floss.
Bob Wilson
* - looks like the Ford Focus is excellent competition to the Jetta TDI. Same interior space and 32.5 MPG vs 39.9 MPG, not that far off in mileage.
If you go and take a Golf TDI out for a good drive away from the stop and go city, and still think the Prius is superior, let us know. I have ridden enough in a friends 09 Prius to never even consider them. Rough riding and noisy on our sub standard San Diego surface streets.
Both TDI and Prius engine won Wards 10 Best. Congratulations!
I was hoping for something that didn't require a paid subscription. Thanks anyway.
As for our other diesel advocates:
"... take a Golf TDI out for a good drive away from the stop and go city ..."
This is a fine suggestion. Own a Prius for "stop and go city" tasks such as holding a job and earning a living. Then one can afford a Golf TDI as the weekend play car although I'd probably go with an ultralight.
"... dead/injured customers ..."
I recently completed a safety study. The Prius fatality rate of 0.64 per 100 million miles is less than half of the NHTSA 1.37-1.51 fatalities per 100 million miles for the years 2001-2007. It is one of the reasons for the affordable insurance costs, which the NHTSA also documented in their annual report.
Well maybe the December voting with their wallets will go differently. We'll see.
Bob Wilson
The Golf has averaged 714,000 sales per year for its 35 years of existence. The Prius has averaged 109,000 cars per year for its life time average sales. I think you know what that meant for Toyota. For every Prius sold VW sold 6.5 Golfs. People voted with their wallets and the VW Golf is the hands down winner. And as the Golf has gained in popularity the Prius has gone down hill about 30% decrease this year alone. The Prius is a two market car while the Golf is a "WORLD" car. VW does not need a loss leader like the Prius to meet the CAFE standards in the USA. So why should VW flood the market and lose money?
Discussions about hybrid vs diesel sales has most merit if one is looking at 401k performance or stock investments:
". . . Toyota Hybrids have peaked in sales and are headed down hill . . ."
In about a month we'll have the numbers for December and the year. I'm patient and looking forward to the results. During the first quarter of 2009, the Japanese press reported Toyota put on extra shifts at the Prius plants and brought employees in from other car plants to build Prius. Then GreenCarCongress reported hybrid sales:
Green Car Congress: Reported US Sales of Hybrids Up 21% in November; New Vehicle Market Share of 2.7%
". . .
Toyota. Toyota posted 14,473 hybrids in November 2009, up 16.3% from November 2008. Total light-duty vehicle sales were up 2.6% to 133,700 units.
. . .
Ford. Ford came in a strong second in the monthly hybrid tally, with 2,361 units sold, up 73.5% from the year prior.
. . .
Honda. Honda posted a total of 1,646 hybrids in November, up 57.8%. Total sales were down 3% to 74,003 units.
. . .
GM. GM reported a total of 1,020 hybrid sales, down 25.5% from November 2008.
. . .
Nissan. Nissan sold 503 Altima Hybrids in November, up 42.5% from the year before, representing 3.2% of Altima sales.
. . ."
Percentages can sometimes be misleading. Toyota's 16.3% increase in hybrid sales would be ~2,359 units ... about the same as Ford's total hybrid sales. All TDI sales in November were 3,667 compared to 14,473 for all Toyota hybrids.
I think 2010 will be an interesting Prius year. The Bush recession is ending and gas prices are creeping up again. We also know hybrid production is battery limited but a new plant is supposed to be coming online. But 2015 will be especially good when the NiMH patent expires and Toyota can design and build NiMH batteries optimized for vehicle propulsion.
Bob Wilson
"Prius
9,617 units
-28.7% vs. last month
11.1% vs. Nov 2008
127,907 CYTD
-15.3% vs. CYTD 2008
All hybrids
20,003 units
-18.3% vs. last month
21.0% vs. Nov 2008
265,112 CYTD
-10.6% vs. CYTD 2008
All vehicles
746,928 units
-10.8% vs. last month
-0.1% vs. Nov 2008
9,399,078 CYTD
-24.0% vs. CYTD 2008"
It looks like ". . . the Prius has gone down hill about 30% decrease this year . . ." might be more accurate for all vehicle sales and not the Prius and hybrids. But as I pointed out earlier, what other people buy has little impact on someone spending over $20,000 on a new car.
Bob Wilson
"
* Technology: Hybrid technology is helping “mainstream nameplates” make inroads into a previously untapped market: tech-savvy, luxury consumers (presenting an opportunity to position mainstream nameplates in a very different buying market);
* Conquesting: Hybrid vehicles drive conquesting or brand switching as much as 10 percentage points higher than their non-hybrid counterparts;
* Room at the Top: “Upper Rung” consumer groups are fueling hybrid buying trends – capturing just 5 percent of these high propensity hybrid consumers would serve to double 2007 U.S. hybrid sales;
* Geographic Differences: Consumers with a high propensity toward hybrids demonstrate a striking difference in geographic location from their non-hybrid counterparts."
Prius owners are taking bites out of other vehicle technologies. The "Conquesting" means they switch from other technologies and brands to hybrid and stay. So we are a direct threat to diesel market share.
In bad economic times, the Prius owners are relatively affluent. They qualify for car loans or just out right buy the car. We are the perfect prospect for any dealer but we are bright enough to see through inaccurate claims.
What is puzzling is given how easily diesel advocate claims run smack dab into the facts and data, they continue to trot them out. We're not the type of customer likely to be persuaded by such claims. So it might be a better use of diesel advocate time to visit other car forums such as compact gas cars:
Yaris
MiniCooper
Honda Fit
Hyundai Accent
Kia Rio
Nissan Versa
These are cars in the same size and no doubt those owners are desperate for good diesel news so easily dismissed by Prius owners. But diesel advocacy in the family sedan sized, Prius hybrid market, that dog don't hunt.
Bob Wilson
If.........
IOW a one trick pony. Yes as long as you keep the TDI's on the highway they are somewhat near the Prius in terms of fuel economy. If you go by Edmunds 3-segment comparo to LV and back the TDI fell short in every segment. Most people can't park their vehicles on highway entrance ramps for use only there. It's illegal.
A good vehicle and a good option but limited in scope. The TDI's will always suffer by comparison when used off the highways. The Sportwagon with the same size as the Prius is worse yet in both scenarios'
Neither statement is accurate.
Afraid of what the first 12 months of 2010 Prius sales will bring, eh?
Including the final 5 months of older generation sales (Jan-May 2009) and disregarding the down economy is rather obvious greenwashing. It's called cherry picking.
Waiting for an entire full year of data will confirm strong sales that the newest generation design. Watch the numbers in the top-10 seller list.
.
It never occurred to me to spend $24,000 on a car to get a navigation unit. We bought a $200 nuvi GPS, Consumer Reports recommended, and it moves from car-to-car. This portable, removable GPS even works while walking, bike riding or trying to find our car in a mall parking lot.
Bob Wilson
Actually I 'fired' XM this summer when I decided to go iPod. I got so tired of their 'tone deaf' programming and lack of content when I wanted it. Our 2010 has XM built in but I've never activated it ... even the demo. I had XM in our 03 but I don't miss it.
Bob Wilson
Since October 2005, we've driven over 70,000 miles at over 52 MPG, our 1.5L, 2003 Prius. It has more than met expectations and remains my primary commuting car. It also has the 1 kW inverter used for emergency power a couple of times per year and a 2" receiver for towing the trailer to carry oversized loads like lumber. It is our Jetta sized sedan with 52 MPG mileage and materially improved our quality of life.
For the past six months, we put 7,000 miles on our second, 1.8L, 2010 Prius. It too is running over 52 MPG with more interior space and better high speed, highway and city mileage than a Jetta TDI. The 2010 Prius is used for weekends and errands and fills a role no Jetta TDI could hope to meet at 52 MPG. It is my wife's car so we are a two Prius family.
Eventually the 2010 Prius will get a receiver for towing and possibly a more powerful A/C inverter. It may also get a battery pack for extended electric operation. At ~$.80/gal. equivalent electrical cost, this will further reduce our transportation cost. This is an area where the Jetta TDI does not compete.
". . . if you ever drove a VW TDI you would be trying to unload . . ."
My wife and I prefer to go flying for fun.
Bob Wilson
Your posts have reminded me to provide a pulse of diesel soot after passing one of the "Pulse and Glide Traffic-Impeding Prius People".
I definitely concur with the repeated points about how the Prius excels when it is stationary/parked. But those "paperweight" functionalities are nowhere in my top requirements for a car.
Personally I think the difference between 45 & 55 mpg is trivial when considered in cost-per mile, but many folks do get quite excited about it.
Would bo5th TDI or Prius owners do well to consider that the idea of always striving to reduce one's transportation cost may have already run into the law of diminishing marginal returns, considering we are already driving ~50 mpg cars?
I've thought positively about hybrids, but after riding in a Prius I would never consider one. For my tastes, Prius is an incredibly awful riding/handling vehicle, right out of the showroom. Civic hybrid was not much better. I have hopes for the new Honda Insight however and would like to test one.