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Toyota Prius vs VW Golf TDI
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Comments
also, attention K-Mart shoppers:
New Prius prices have dropped $1000 or $1500 in the last few weeks.
Meanwhile, TDI prices are holding constant.
Maybe it's just "supply vs demand" which accounts for the Prius Price Plummet.
Or maybe the VW TDIs are actually better *vehicles* (in-motion) while the Priuses are better while parked (used as generators or to save fuel in stop n go city traffic.)
Second, these were all 2010 Priuses with the 1.8L engine, right?
Third, what does the performance of your Jeep have to do with this discussion of the 2010 Golf TDI and Prius?
But it does put the Prius at an even bigger price advantage wrt the TDI, for people looking to buy right now.
The Pruis that I saw were not 2010 but 2008 and 2008 models.
OK then. I know lots of diesel-powered vehicles that have all kinds of trouble making it up an 8% grade while maintaining speed. They have brand names of Kenworth, Freightliner, Volvo etc. I guess that makes the Prius superior to the Golf TDI in climbing grades--especially with the more powerful 1.8L engine for 2010? :P
Can we stay on the topic please?
So Toyota gave the gas engine 22 more HP and 23 more lb-ft of torque. They raped the electric side dropping torque by 142 lb-ft to 153 lb-ft versus 295 lb-ft for the 2007 - 2009. I do not think that the larger gas engine will help.
http://www.toyota.com/prius-hybrid/specs.html
The 2010 Prius has considerably more power and torque than previous generations, so I don't think it's fair to draw a conclusion on how the car takes a grade based on the earlier designs.
http://www.motorauthority.com/blog/1032647_first-drive-2010-toyota-prius
I do think a person can get a good deal while Toyota is down and out. Don't expect the resale to be good for at least 5 years after their debacle. Too bad it did not happen to VW, BMW or Audi. I might be buying a new vehicle.
"The Pruis that I saw were not 2010 but 2008 and 2008 models"
The 1.5L Prius or at least our 2003 Prius, can maintain 65 mph up an 8% grade but anything over or an extra heavy load and it could dip into and run out of traction battery power. In these cases, I recommend using 55 mph or just follow any semi-trailer truck up the climb lane. It saves fuel and gets there with minimal stress on the car.
Bob Wilson
"Let us hook up the equivalent weight to the 2010 Prius and then see what happens. But then again, I do not know anyone who commutes in a Kenworth, Freightliner or Volvo truck."
The technical term is power-to-weight ratio and that pretty well defines hill climbing performance for any vehicle ... even a diesel.
You also mentioned:
"So Toyota gave the gas engine 22 more HP and 23 more lb-ft of torque. They [reduced] the electric side dropping torque by 142 lb-ft to 153 lb-ft versus 295 lb-ft for the 2007 - 2009. I do not think that the larger gas engine will help."
Whole vehicle performance includes the transmission and the 2010 Prius (ZVW30) transmission has internally geared electric motors. This allows the motors to spin faster and via the gearing produce more torque to the drive train. The gearing also reduced the size of the motors and transmission volume and weight. Like the earlier 2004-09 Prius (NHW20), the absence of shift points means the engine and electric system can operate at peak efficiency points over a very wide range of power and speeds.
Our family has both a 2003 (NHW11) and ZVW30 Prius. So whole vehicle performance is important for trip planning and efficient driving and my studies include:
level, mph vs MPG - optimum cruise speeds
climb, mph vs fuel - optimum climb speeds
temp vs MPG - dealing with weather
Now there have been a few snippets of honest, head-to-head vehicle performance. Edmunds did that with some of their reports and collecting sources:
http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/edmunds_010.jpg
http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/edmunds_020.jpg
Bob Wilson
I notice how you left out the 2009 MY. Was that because there were only 137 complaints that year? You also left out the first two years of the Gen 2 Prius history; each of those years had fewer than 500 complaints.
Should we talk about all the Golfs and Rabbits recalled by the NHTSA over the past few years? Looks like it was pretty much ALL of them, from 1999-2008.
Update: Interesting (and telling?) comment from one of the NHTSA complaints for the 2010 Prius: "I DIDN'T THINK TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THIS BEFORE I BEGAN HEARING THE NEWS."
Well, having a lot of problems reported for 4 out of 5 most recent Prius models should raise red flags if you're in love with Prius I am not disputing your facts about unreliability of VWs, I am talking about recent years and Prius' unreliability compared to Jetta TDIs. ALso, cars CAN be unreliable even if they were not recalled such as Prius models in 2006, 2007, and 2008 and that's GEN 2 vehicles of Prius. YIPPIE if first 2 years GEN 2 vehicles had less than 500 complaints./ Still does not indicate ANY poor reliablity in GEN 2 vehicles after 2005. According to NHTSA website on Prius complaints, the drivers are more likely to report ACTUAL PROBLEMS than " I DIDN'T THINK TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THIS BEFORE I BEGAN HEARING THE NEWS." Also, your claim that Prius is one of the most reliable cars according to a survey did not take into account who did participated and which years of Prius were involved. They probably did not survey many 2006, 2007 and 2008 Prius owners. That survey was at one point in time. The complaints on NHTSA explains drivers experiences THROUGHOUT their ownership of the vehicle, WELL past the reliability survey you claimed. By the way, 2009 Prius complaits are near 180 as of today and Prius 2010 is reaching 1500.
During open road driving, highway cruising, the diesel beat the Camry Hybrid but around town in stop and go, the Hybrid did better.
From Green car congress:
Average total consumption for the Mercedes over the 5,200-kilometer trip (3,232 miles) was 9.2 l/100km (25.6 mpg), while the Lexus came in at 10.2 l/100km (23 mpg).
Hopefully a team can do the same with a Golf TDI and a Prius. After they get the brakes working on the Prius.
Days earlier, Mr. Taylor and his wife, Helen, had completed a 48-state drive averaging 67.9 miles a gallon: 9,505 miles in 19 days, filling up only 13 times and spending a total of $371.03 for diesel fuel. That beat the Guinness record of 58.8 miles a gallon they set a year ago on nearly the same route in an almost identical 2009 Jetta TDI.
When the Prius makes that course in the same or shorter time using the same or less fuel they get to be in the book. Until then they are just another good mileage commuter car. Getting 70 MPG on the Prius readout over 20 miles is meaningless.
It's not a good idea to make statements about things you obviously know nothing about.
Change the test to something most drivers experience everyday, where there's a lot of in-town driving, and the diesel won't do nearly as well I suspect.
Again I ask, how does that relate at all to a comparison of the 2010 Prius to the 2010 Golf TDI?
"Getting 70 MPG on the Prius readout over 20 miles is meaningless. "
Actually it is just one data point on a graph that plots "mph vs MPG," at 47 mph. But there is another collection of mileage records, the EPA web site, www.fueleconomy.gov:
49.0 (70 vehicles) - 2010 Prius
40.1 (27 vehicles) - 2009 Jetta TDI
Does the Guiness Book of Records come with a free fuel card to cover the 22% difference the Prius saves? But on further reflection, it would be great if TDI advocates bought two:
http://www.amazon.com/Guinness-World-Records-2010/dp/1904994504/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UT- F8&s=books&qid=1266371390&sr=8-2
Indeed, buy as many as you can afford and show them off at the gas station.
I prefer to spend as little of my Yankee Greenback dollars at the fuel pump as possible.
Bob Wilson
Well, it's also stupid to IGNORE the problems that are on record.
He likely wanted a car that was fun to drive and got a car that was great
for cruising silently through the mall parking lot. He knew he screwed up
when he drove it off the dealers lot and the engine rattled to life, and the
jolt going out the drive jarred his teeth and kidneys. Too bad soo Sad, He
is stuck with his bad decision till the brakes fail and he totals his Prius.
PS
Look at the owners reviews next to your too wide post. I would say there is
a lot of buyers remorse with the Prius owners. And happy buyers that are
lucky enough to find a Golf TDI for sale.
Nearly 9 points on a 10 point scale doesn't seem like much buyer remorse out there, IMO. But since the TDI fans have established here it's OK to evaluate owner satisfaction using just one review, and also it's OK to use cars that are not the Prius or Golf, here's an owner's review from Edmunds.com on the 2009 Jetta TDI:
Overall rating: 8.3
Vehicle
2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI 4dr Sedan (2.0L 4cyl Turbodiesel 6AM)
Review
After 16 months, 22,000 miles. Paint is very soft, hood has numerous chips. Idiot dealer response-"do you drive a lot on the freeway?". Rear brakes overheat frequently, 50% worn with front brakes virtually unused. Idiot dealer response-"that's the way the car is designed". Just received notice from Volkswagen of possible premature wear in transmission, along with extension of the transmission warranty to 100,000 miles, but apparently only on the particular part that is wearing out prematurely. Steering requires more effort than I would like. Seats well shaped but hard. Cost of diesel consistently $.30 higher than gasoline. Good points: excellent fuel mileage (38 average, up to 54 On
Favorite Features
Fuel mileage, handling, turbo boost, styling, interior quality, satellite radio.
Suggested Improvements
Tougher paint, easier steering, softer seats, dealers who don't employ idiots, 100,000 mile powertrain warranty.
Here's another one, even worse:
Overall rating: 6.3
Vehicle
2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI 4dr Sedan (2.0L 4cyl Turbodiesel 6AM)
Review
Water in tank in aug. "flushed" at dealer. Air compressor bad/replaced in sept/20,000 check. Car died on road. Towed. Fuel system needs replacing due to aug problem:$6500 in parts excludes labor. Progressive only replaced parts 1 at a time. "ok" per dealer. No power 1st day used. Turbo now bad/replaced under warranty. Diagnostics done at dealer couldn't be interpreted. Had to call corporate! Fuel sys warranty void now. Dealer wants to replace fuel sys even new parts. Ins. Co. Says no totals car. We are out $2500. Paid cash for new car for 1st time. Car not used from sept 22 to nov 10 (minus 1 day on road) when we received check from progressive. Worst car experience ever. First and last VW.
Favorite Features
It was fun to drive.
Suggested Improvements
Fuel filter that stops car if contaminants in fuel prior to damage. Give dealers better diagnostics prior to selling a product.
Looks a lot like "buyer's remorse" to me.
They do? Last I read they are on the NO SELL list. At least till Toyota figures out their problem with the brakes.
Over 1300 reports of brake failures in the 2010 Prius to NHTSA. RECALLED FINALLY
112 reports of dangerous Cruise Control. That after the "Woz" tried to convince the dweebs at Toyota they had a problem. Anyone buying a Prius until they get their act together is just plain foolish.
Your 6.3 rating on the Jetta TDI did not make much sense. Is he saying he wrecked the car and had problems after that? Over 10% of Prius buyers this year rated the car under 6.3. I won't take up space with all the problems encountered with the new generation Prius. Still cannot find any unhappy Golf TDI owners to parade out???
I prefer not driving a Prius.
Here is a thought. They could see who could get around the track the most times before a tank of fuel runs out. Sounds real exciting for the fans. Plenty of time to get a beer and take a potty break waiting for your favorite Prius to come back around the track. It would be right up there with watching paint dry.
Sure, Prius owners can get pretty smug about their gas-sipping rides. (We've also noticed that many like to silently cruise around at 10 mph under the speed limit, apparently trying to achieve the best "score" on their MPG display and to share their earth-loving glow with the cars stacking up behind them).
-end
Smug Prius owners? Really?
Honey bees: Putting the Prius (and every other eco-car) to shame
quote-
The bottom line is that the Golf is an “entry level” car that, in many respects, behaves like a vehicle costing thousands more. While you’ll pay a little extra to get into the Golf in the first place (our sample, which had the sunroof and Cold Weather Package options, stickered for $21,165), the car’s excellent interior, well-sorted drive train, space efficient design, and all-around refinement are gifts that will keep on giving over time. In fact, one Winding Road staff member commented that the Golf provided a day-to-day driving experience, “Not all that different” from a 3-Series BMW, which gives you some idea of just how special this little car really is.
-end
Even when equipped with the mediocre 2.5L gas engine the Golf still receives praise. With the TDI it just gets better.
With the Golf you can choose from manual or automatic transmission, gas or diesel, you can even move up to the GTI. No choice of engine or transmission with Prius.
But hey forums are full of BS and uninformed crapola.
Take the cost of ownership argument TDI vs Hybrid as an example. Or the tech vs assumed no tech hybrid vs TDI comment. All really lame and uninformed comments worth nothing.
The hybrid concept is a good one the current application being marketed and sold to us really isn't a very good solution your pairing an inefficient gas engine with a small and limited electric system. A hybrid Bicycle is not a good Road bike (its too heavy) nor is it a good Mt bike (its too light) the hybrid has a very narrow range of use where it excels. Same goes for our current Hybrid cars.
The low resistance tires are not great tires when it comes to wear - performance or cost yes the Prius has them. (Low Resistance tire sounds important and like it would really make a massive difference in fuel and operational costs - not really)
The single largest negative impact the Prius has made (it gave people a justifiable excuse to continue living way too far from work and spending way too much time driving period) Not counting all the additional heavy metals that were mined to build the electrical systems for a car thats a "Hybrid" with a very narrow range where it excels.
Also true is that there is no urea required with Golf TDI, Jetta TDI, Audi A3 TDI models as they meet emissions requirements without having to use a Urea SCR system.
It's hard to find Golf TDI buyers PERIOD. Look to the right for example--only a handful of those 12 reviews are for the TDI. Vs. 123 reviews to date for the Prius. Hence my comment re the Prius having buyers at least.
Transmission problems sound to be like a much bigger problem than a software update that can be applied in a few minutes. Would you say that anyone who buys a Golf or Jetta TDI before those transmission (and fuel system) problems are worked out is "plain foolish"?
There was a problem with specific component in a limited number of DSG transmissions installed in Jetta TDI. VW has recognized the problem and notified the owners of the problem as well as extending the warranty on the transmission to 100,000 miles to owners of affected vehicles. VW also notified owners they would reimburse owners for repair costs completed before the problem was identified.
This is what VW, Toyota or any other manufacturer should do when there is a problem. VWoA was slow to react to problems with MkIII and MkIV vehicles. VW has demonstrated with it's actions from about 2005 to current time that it intends to improve quality of it's vehicles, the service experience, and the ownership experience. It is a work in progress.
There are no known issues with the 2010 DSG in the Golf. It is too early to know if there will be problems anyway.
Toyota seems to be going the other direction during the past 10 years from stellar quality and reputation to heading to the cellar. I expect that Toyota will fix it's problems and take less time to fix them than it took VW.
Buyers of diesel or hybrids or any device that is on cutting edge of technology or one that has only a small portion of the market and is not well understood are taking a greater risk. Risk when they need a repair or part, risk of unknown future value.
No risk, no reward.
I would not buy one until I knew the bugs were ironed out of the DSG. Though it is not a safety issue, just an inconvenience. I don't see any accidents as a result of the transmission shifting into neutral. I would rather have that happen than runaway acceleration or no brakes.
According to Toyota they will start sending out letters next week on the Prius brake issue. Meanwhile pray each time you need to use the brakes and keep a quarter mile between yourself and the car in front of you.
It is clear that VW is getting better at taking care of customers and Toyota is getting worse.
Unsafe at any speed should be the Prius mantra. Where is Ralph Nader when you really need him:
ON THURSDAY, JANUARY 28TH MY WIFE DROVE OUR 2010 TOYOTA PRIUS TO WORK. THE WAS A SLIGHT COATING OF SNOW ON THE GROUND. LESS THAT ONE BLOCK FROM OUR HOUSE, DRIVING AT NO MORE THAN 10-15 MPH SHE APPLIED THE BRAKES TO STOP AT A STOP SIGN. SHE REPORTED THAT THE BRAKES SEEMED TO LOCK (NOT THE NORMAL ABS FEEL) AND SHE LOST CONTROL OF THE CAR, WHICH THEN SLID/SKIDDED INTO A CURB WHICH PUNCTURED THE FRONT PASSENGER TIRE. THE CAR APPEARED TO HAVE ONLY A PUNCTURED TIRE WHICH WAS CHANGED BY A AAA SERVICE TRUCK. AFTER THE TIRE WAS CHANGED AND THE SERVICE TRUCK LEFT, I ATTEMPTED TO DRIVE THE VEHICLE TO A NEARBY TIRE DEALER. AS I TRIED TO DRIVE THE CAR, I HEARD AND FELT A LOUD SCRAPING NOISE THAT SOUND AND FELT LIKE THE BRAKES WERE STILL ENGAGED. EVEN THOUGH I WAS NOW ON CLEAR PAVEMENT IF I AT ALL TRIED TO APPLY THE BRAKES,THE ABS WENT ON, BUT IN AN AGGRESSIVE MANNER. THE ABS ALSO WENT ON A COUPLE OF TIMES EVEN WITHOUT ME PUTTING MY FOOT ON THE BRAKES. THE TIRE DEALER SAID HE THOUGHT WE MIGHT HAVE BEEN THE FRAME AND TOLD US NOT TO DRIVE THE CAR. THE CAR WAS TOWED TO A NEARBY BODY SHOP TO BE INSPECTED BY OUR INSURANCE COMPANY, STATE FARM. AS OF FEBRUARY 2, 2010 NO INSPECTION HAS TAKEN PLACE. IT IS OUR CONTENTION THAT SOMETHING MALFUNCTIONED WITH THE BRAKES WHICH CAUSED THE ACCIDENT.
And this:
I HAVE A 2010 PRIUS. EVERYONE IN THE MEDIA IS TALKING ABOUT BRAKE ISSUES BUT THE REAL PROBLEM IS THAT THE CAR ACCELERATES AFTER IT HITS BUMPS IN THE ROAD. IT FEELS LIKE AN ELECTRONIC PROBLEM. THE BRAKES AREN'T THE ISSUE.
This is the arrogance that starts at the top of Toyota corporate and extends to the worshipers at the bottom of the heap.
I OWN A TOYOTA 2010 PRIUS. I COMPLAINED TO THE DEALERSHIP WHERE I BOUGHT MY CAR IN JULY AT MY FIRST SERVICE/OIL CHANGE ABOUT A SUDDEN SURGE IN SPEED WHILE DRIIVING OVER BUMPY SURFACES. I PRESENTED THEM WITH INTERNET INFORMATION I HAD COPIED FROM COMSUMERS HAVING THE SAME PROBLEM BUT THEY WOULD NOT TAKE THEM FROM ME. THEY SERVICED THE CAR, DROVE IT AND RETURNED IT TO ME SAYING THEY FOUND NO PROBLEMS AND THAT I WAS THE ONLY PERSON WHO HAD EVER COMPLAINED ABOUT IT. THEY SAID THEY KNEW OF NO OTHER SIMILAR COMPALINTS. I ASKED THEM TO PUT ON MY BILL THE FACT THAT THIS WAS HAPPENING TO MY CAR SO THAT IT WOULD BE DOCUMENTED FOR THE FUTURE. THEY DID NOT SEEM AT ALL CONCERNED AT THE TIME. IT REMAINS AN ONGOING PROBLEM WHEN I DRIVE.
I will repeat. Anyone that reads the 1000 plus complaints with the 2010 Prius and still buys one deserves whatever happens.
"Is that a Prius owner in the picture looking longingly at a Jetta TDI?"
Actually that image came from a U-tube video and the happy, approving
advocate of the smoke emitting, tire spinning, "clean diesel" is one of the authors
of the video:
Like the Jetta users reporting their actual milage at the EPA web site, the truth is:
- TDIs get ~40 MPG versus ~49 MPG for the 2010 Prius
- TDI advertisements brag about the noise they make
- TDI advocates post videos showing tires being wastefully worn down
- TDI advocates take pride in the smoke and noise from spinning tires
- even you tried to falsely ask if a Prius owner would aprove of such waste
Seriously, your problem is not with the Prius but your own TDI advocates.
They make lie of your claims. For every brick you put up, one of your TDI
friends is ready to take it back down. Sorry my friend, but with friends
like them, you have a rough row to hoe.
You know we are going to take your claims, go to the source, and present the facts
and data that your fellow TDI advocates brag about. We're going to post the
VW commercials that contradict your claims. We don't care because you set it
up and we only have to know it down with the facts and data.
Prius owners have had to put up with a decade of skeptics, many with greater
skills and sophistication than your claims. We soon learned that going to the
source often revealed facts and data 180 degrees from what was
claimed. It is pattern as familar as a clockwork and Kabuki rigid.
Please continue to post because wiffle-ball pitches give us a reason to post the
facts and data. We're not tired and certainly not lazy. Give us another one.
Bob Wilson
"Where is Ralph Nader when you really need him."
The answer is found at this analysis of Prius fatal accidents 2001-2007:
http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_Fatal_Accidents/
Now I understand that TDI advocates believe the handling is very important:
The ability to spin wheels, generating clouds of smoke, noise and disabling
traction control seems an important 'feature' of TDI vehicles. Regardless,
you seem interested in the 2010 Prius brake recall, A0B.
This is what the Prius brake pause looked like before the fix:
This is what it looked like afterwards:
You'll notice the brake was quite effective after the speed bump.
Toyota's fix works and deployment is such that you can't buy a
2010 Prius from a dealer today without A0B, the patch.
But since you mentioned test driving a TDI, I think I'll wait for the next
drizzle day and using the same accelerometer, go looking for some speed
bumps. Yes indeed, it is time to measure TDI braking performance. As you
might guess, I have no problem filing an NHTSA report on defective
TDI braking ... now that we know what to look for.
Bob Wilson
Of course, that is totally untrue. As is what some people are posting here about the Prius' braking problem.
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/summary.aspx?class=40
By the way your deaths per 100 million miles study is reminiscent of the recent AGW IPCC reports. Take an agenda and adjust the data to give the desired end result. Far from scientific. Funny when it comes to NHTSA data that is negative toward the Prius it is not useful or is flawed. I guess it kept you busy for a couple hours making graphs and adjusting figures. Very laughable. :P
"And the IIHS a respected testing source rates ... "
Their result is available here:
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=566
They state for the 2010 Prius,
"Frontal offset test results - Good"
"Side impact test results - Good"
"Rear protection - Good"
"Good" is the highest rating they give in their testing. It is impossible to exceed the IIS "Good" rating.
You also mentioned:
". . . a few pennies worth of gas saved . . . "
The EPA site shows:
$1217 - Jetta TDI 2010 expected fuel costs
$0783 - Prius 2010 expected fuel costs
- - - - -
$ 434 -- is a little more than "a few pennies" but closer to a car payment
You mentioned, "IIHS" Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. So I went to Progressive and entered a 2010 Prius and 2010 Golf. They quoted online:
$18 - $27 - Comprehensive Coverage
$123 - $140 - Collision Coverage
$22 - $22 - Rental Car
$0 - $0 - Roadside Assistance
$6 - $7 - Loan/Lease Payoff
The 2010 Prius came in cheaper than the 2010 Golf. It is interesting how this insurance company provides a lower price to the Prius. I listed both the 2010 Prius and 2010 Golf in the same request for a quote.
Bob Wilson
So lets see how they stack up for insurance:
Prius insurance = $228 with AAA roadside $59
Golf Insurance = $196 VW will tow in the unlikely chance you need it.
We will take your skewed economy numbers just for chuckles. So you save $434 a year in fuel cost with the Prius. A comparable Prius to the Golf TDI comparing amenities would be about $2900 more for the Prius and it does not include a sun roof. Add a sun roof and you are at about $4000 more for the Prius than a Golf TDI. Take off for the extra interest on the additional $4000 and the additional Insurance for towing and it leaves you with about $100 to the good on fuel. Of course that gets more than eaten up by the $4000 premium you paid for the Prius so there is no way with the short "end of life" you projected for the Prius in your study to ever be a better deal than the Golf TDI. Add to that living with a numb handling, poor braking, uncomfortable, noisy car for 5 or 6 years and you are going to be swearing at Mr Toyoda like millions of other folks are right now.
PS
Thanks for offering me the opportunity to shoot holes in your incomplete facts.