Toyota 4Runner

tidester · September 2002

Isn't it also true that aluminum engines make a LOT more noise?

tidester
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peter78 · September 2002

I think going to an aluminum block and using the variable valve timing, Toyota is going with a different philosophy. They mentioned in their write up for the 4Runner, that it is a whole new family of truck engines. So we will see more of this type of engine in their trucks. I think the horse power war is part of the reason.

Lets just hope the engine is not like the Vega. For people who don't remember, the Vega had a all aluminum engine that after about 40,000 miles went bust, warp block. General Motors fixed the engines with a another aluminum engine that again went out after another 40,000 miles. This time General Motors didn't fix them. You could tell a old Vega by all of the burning oil. Vega did damage to the reputation of the aluminum engine about the same as what the movie "Marathon Man" did to dentistry.

nippononly · September 2002

Toyota has been making all-aluminum engines for quite some time now, so it is not quite the same thing. This is just their first attempt to put one in a truck, and I would think with the extra work you might put on a truck engine, and the constant extreme heat cycling the engine would consequently go thru, it might not be such a good idea. I really wonder why they chose to do this for a truck - I always thought the main advantage of an aluminum engine was less weight, which is not a big factor in a truck.

intmed99 · October 2002

intmed99 · October 2002

The Land Rover engines (4.0L V8 and 4.6L V8, and new BMW 4.4L V8) are all-aluminum. The 4.4L V8 is all-BMW...seen in BMW 5-series, 7-series, and X5. The 4.0L and 4.6L V8s are VERY old designs; however, they are all-aluminum. I think those engines do hold up over time...proven. Unfortunately, the rest of the vehicle does not.

joatmon · October 2002

is based on the Buick all aluminum V8 from 1961.

peter78 · October 2002

Here is a quote from Toyota about comparing the current 4Runner engine to the current Pathfinder engine.

-----------------
"The Toyota 4Runners engine uses a cast iron block for durability, while the Pathfinders engines use an aluminum block. Aluminum engine blocks are much more prone to warp and crack at high temperatures than cast iron.

The Pathfinders redline is at 6500 to 6700 RPM, which causes more engine wear, and a greater chance of a catastrophic engine failure. The 4Runner has a 5500 RPM redline."

-----------------

Now that the 4Runner is going with a aluminum block and variable valve timing, which allows greater rev's, maybe they should change there site, huh?

4skinner · October 2002

I have a 98 SR5 4 x 4 with 55,000 that i bought 2 months ago used. When im at idle and i hastily depress the accelerator pedal, im hearing a clunking noise in the engine compartment?

If i moderate the depressing of the acceleration pedal ther is no clunk noise. it sounds like a Engine mount or suspension bushing or something. Any help would appreciated.

cliffy1 · October 2002

While reading the monthly sales report this morning, I ran across a very short note that will be of interest to all here. It was at the bottom of the page and simply stated "2003 4Runners begin shipping October 10."

stever · October 2002

lol, next we'll find out they've been on the back lots for 3 weeks now.

Thanks for the update, Cliffy.

Steve
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kullenberg · October 2002

Bear in mind that the West Coast ports are shut down right now. Toyota may delay shipping from Japan, or slow the boats down as they don't want them sitting off shore of the Port.

nippononly · October 2002

but if they have a delivery date only 10-15 days from now, I think they are mostly already in the ports, probably two weeks ago, so I don't think the dockworkers lock-out will have an effect.

That is hilarious - the Toyota/Pathfinder comparison on the Toyota site...and it agrees exactly with what I already thought, so why the change? Aluminum engines are fine for cars...oh well, time will tell.

tbcreative · October 2002

http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q1D1258F1

http://www.velocityjrnl.com/

vixter · October 2002

...there's a choice. I'd say for the guy that's a little gun-shy on the new six, opt for the proven 8. We all know that it has a cast-iron block w/alum. heads plus it uses reg. 87 octane fuel. Using reg. octane in the six will reduce power by about 15 putting it nearer to the eight and most likely reduce it's MPG as well. Is it possible that Toyota planned it that way? I mean, coming up with an all-new alum. block engine line for their trucks, there's bound to be alot of buyers who'd shy away from that fact alone forcing Toyota to offer a more conventional, proven engine. I would be curious to know if the new 5-speed auto. in the 8s are the same as the one built from the LX470's parts bin.

nippononly · October 2002

why would they go through the trouble of developing another? They want to make the top version of the 4Runner a baby Land Cruiser through and through. It certainly has the front-end looks for it.

jeffjeff · October 2002

Can anyone out there tell me if the 2002 4Runner Limited with the 6 disc cd changer has the ability to play CD-RW discs and not just CD-R's and conventional CD's. I know most of you are into the 2003 4Runner but I'm really into the 2002 4Runner because there is just something classic about it that I just like. I plan to purchase one very soon and would like to know this beforehand if possible. Any help or advice would be appreciated.

mackabee · October 2002

is the same as used in the Lexus LX470 and in the Japan only Landcruiser 100.

: )
Mackabee

2002 runner will not play cdr-w's only cd-r's and regular cd's

nippononly · October 2002

the new Runner's looks blend so much with the other Toyota trucks (not to mention looking like a few of the competitors' trucks as well!), I think the 3rd gen will wind up being, as so aptly put above, the "classic" 4Runner...

jeffjeff · October 2002

Was it said earlier that the V8 will be getting 17/20 miles to the gallon or was this in reference to the V6 coming out a couple months later?

wishnhigh1 · October 2002

It is in many ways better than cast iron. The drawback? Using it as a structural member as well as an engine block. Fortunately most cars are not built like Audi R8 race cars.

rward99 · October 2002

Can you tell me where on the Toyota site you found the Pathfinder/4Runner comparison and the information on the aluminum block, or maybe post the link. I'm having trouble finding it.

Thanks

intmed99 · October 2002

Doesn't this engine use PREMIUM fuel???

mjohnr99 · October 2002

jeffjeff, that handle sounds familiar . . . were you around here in 1999-2000 talking about a possible 3rd Gen??? - like you, I love the 3rd Gen and almost bought a 2000 at one point, but decided to hold out for the redesign due to my own desire for more than 183 HP (especially when the Pathfinder debuted its 2001 redesign with 240 HP). Everything for the last few months has been '03s, spy shots, rumors, dates, etc. - but here's my 2 cents for you and anyone else thinking about an alleged "deal" on a 2002 (because I've been "in the thick" of the market the last few weeks "dueling" with the dealers and got the bottom line numbers for you).

The best you will do on a 2002 is (and the fine print can be confusing): Invoice - 1,500 September Rebate (some dealers are now only giving 1,000 from October 1 through the 10th, when the '03 is scheduled to debut) - 578 (assuming they have paid for it and are willing to eat their holdback) + O processing fee (trust me, you do not need to pay that charge). Even with two dealers on the ropes at 8 PM on the last day of September, by 10 PM the best they would do is "something" around that price formula. Anything below that and you have a no-go as they do not want to lose any money and will wait for the more impulsive buyer to show up - some dealers have not paid for the vehicles yet and therefore can afford to wait. To me, their thinking seems to be that when the '03s come in this month (they will all be V8 Limiteds in the upper $30Ks) and people hit the lots to check them out, they think they will easily sell a great "deal" on an upper $20K '02 to that same person who can not wait until January when the V6 SR5s and Sports show up.

My advice: 1) Wait the three months; learn to love the new look. Or, 2) shop elsewhere and let your dollars do the talking.

Here's why. Take a standard '02 SR5 with SP sport package and the core basic stuff (SR, RH, R1, etc.) that you see advertised in one of those "Blowout" sales in the Washington Post (you could use any trim level, just start with invoice). The Invoice with options is say $29,800. Subtract the 1,500 (if you can still get it this month) and the 578 (if you can pull that off) and you get a final price of $27,772, plus T/T/T of ~1,100, and you are at $30K out the door.

I can understand that none of us want to stick it to the dealer, but the problem is for the customer, at this point in time, this is not a "deal." (Again, all you guys who bought '02s back when you did - smart move on a classic 3rd Gen truck! - I'm not opening a debate here. Maybe I should have bought as well, and then enjoyed the past 3 years!) Ok, the new '03s are thought to have base prices running from 27K to 37K - we'll have the exact pricing soon enough. [All the dealers have told me that they are of course after MSRP on these.]

With that price range, even at MSRP, however, you could get a very nicely optioned V6 2003 SR5 or Sport for around 34K in January. Have you looked over the standard features?! The interior?! 245 HP?! Wow! If you like the new exterior look, then all very much worth waiting the 3 months IMHO; only a few thousand more to pay, which does very little to the monthly payment.

For those who can't wait (guessing that they are the same type who stays away from American), my guess is that they could be better interested in the '02/'03 Pathfinders with 240 HP. Nissan is selling their top-of-the-line Loaded LE's with leather, every option, etc. for exactly the same price as what you would pay now for the 'O2 SR5 Runner (that's their sales angle). I drove a Pathy in 2000 (before the redesign) and it was a joke. I just drove an '02 for kicks-and-giggles with the new engine and oh-my-god, even I had to admit that it was the feeling I had been waiting for in the new Runner (not a bad interior now and its a great monochromatic in SuperBlack!). Now, the Pathy is not my bag (the '01s had a lot of kinks that eventually got worked out), but if you will be using an SUV mostly for daily driving, etc., you have to at least go drive one. I refused all these years and was pleasantly surprised for the price.

It makes sense, too. The SUV HP wars began in 2000/2001 and that has been all the rage in these vehicles. Toyota's sales on the 2001 4Runners dropped 20% from the previous year due to the HP issue, and for 2002 they are apparently worse I am told. So, at this time (again no offense to my loyal 3rd Gens), I would suggest waiting 3 months or getting a better "value" on the Pathy for basically the same price.

On the '02 4Runners, its a lose-lose situation for the customer and dealer. Dealers can't eat their shirts on these, but the customer can't be under the impression that 30K is a good deal at this time. Instead, the customer should know what they are getting and understand it before making the decision to buy - this said, I imagine Toyota will be able to sell these '02s with no problem because many of us are willing to overpay for what we consider a fine product.

jeffjeff, like you, I am one of those customers who will pay a bit more for a Toyota (but also a value-conscious shopper, hence why I like Toyota in the first place). I love the 3rd Gen and attempted to turn one of these '02 "deals" into something that can compete with the new '03s HP-wise, but the numbers don't add up. To up the 3rd Gen 183 HP to 260 HP, I can buy a Toyota Racing Division (TRD) supercharger, trans oil cooler, and boost gauge from ETOYOTAS.COM for ~$2,600 (hence, the true cost most be below that for them to sell at that price). With the rebates, the '03s about to hit the shelves, and the desire to get an '02 off the lot before the 10th, you figure you could get a dealer to sell that SR5 Sport '02 for an offer to pay (before T/T/T) Invoice or Invoice plus 500$ if they included the parts and labor on a TRD package. As we saw in previous posts (which I confirmed), the dealer's cost on labor is only around $320 (8 hours x $40), which they should just throw in given the market. But the kicker: they claim they have to shell out ~ $3K to Parts Dept. for the TRD package parts. Give me a break. Dealerships are like a bunch a little stores (parts, service, sales, etc.) - they should integrate more to be able to deal out "true costs" in these situations (i.e., I should not be able to buy from etoyotas.com, a dealer in Texas, for less than their alleged costs). [They may have no choice, but notice I said "SHOULD BE ABLE."] So, jeffjeff, if you have a plan to get the 3rd Gen looks you love but want the HP of the new '03s, you are out of luck - unless you want to pay: Invoice + $3,290 (TRD package parts and labor) - 1,500 September Rebate (some dealers are now only giving 1,000) - 578 (assuming they eat their holdback).

mjohnr99 · October 2002

So, for all those who love the 3rd Gen, wanted it a little wider, and a little more HP, you just better learn to like the new look of the '03s. I'm trying . . . but not too crazy about paying 39K for an almost-monochromatic black '03 Limited, complete with silver running boards, silver roof racks, and silver skunk-like bumper "stripes." Sheesh . . .

cliffy1 · October 2002

You forgot to mention that on those ads in the Post, you must also pay a processing fee (yes, if you start out at a higher figure, you can negotiate it but not when starting on a loss leader) and freight which is $510.

I also want to point out that the incentives did change this month. We have $1000 customer rebates PLUS $500 in dealer cash until the 14th at which point, it drops to a flat $750 dealer cash with no customer rebate.

mjohnr99 · October 2002

I figured the 1,500 was in essence still around in some form. I did mention the processing fee in my original formula [and the freight is included in my Invoice number], but had it at a "0" as there are loss leaders in MD without the fee and the numbers from my experience there basically crunch as I have posted. However, if I am missing something, then paying the extra $200-$500 "processing fees" out there only reinforces my point: 1) Wait the three months; learn to love the new look; or, 2) shop elsewhere and let your dollars do the talking. Come the 15th, the $750 dealer cash tells me that Toyota does think they can get more on the '02s then (selling them against the 39K Limiteds) than now . . . I hope the consumer is more sophisticated than Toyota thinks. But, hey, we could be wrong here - Toyota could announce one of those "surprise" new rebates that none of us, even the dealers, knew would happen before then. ;> Buying a car should be much less "fun" . . .

cliffy1 · October 2002

There is a very good reason Toyota is lowering the incentives on the 14th. They want us to get rid of the 2002s before then. All of them. The dealers know that the incentives get worse at the exact time the new one hits our lots so dealers will be looking to dump the 2002s at all costs. Most dealers are nearly out of the 2002s anyway. The only ones left are those that arrived in the last couple of weeks and they need to vanish quickly.

mjohnr99 · October 2002

Ok, I can buy that. Good point. But there are enough '02s around on the lots given demand (yes, some lots are out - lucky for them.) So, we'll see what I find out on the evening of the 14th versus, say on the 18th, and I'll report back here the info. for the Edmunds consumer. I still say Invoice - 1,500 - 578 + 0 processing + $2600 for a TRD package parts and labor (check out trdusa.com) is the best bet for anyone who loves the looks of the 3rd Gen '02 and wants the HP of the new redesign.

sola · October 2002

Does anyone know whether the running boards will be easily removed on an '03? I'm looking to replace my '98 Cherokee Limited with an '03 4Runner. Even with the moderate off-roading I do in Moab and here in Colo., it looks like the mudflaps and boards on the '03 Limited will be candidates for damage.

Also, if anyone has any opinions/experience on how a stock 4runner compares to a stock (with Up Country suspension group) Cherokee off-road, that'd be great to hear too.

Thanks for any help.

vixter · October 2002

The 4.7 i-force uses reg.fuel which is why I say if you use reg.in the new six the fuel mileage should be the same if not worse than the 8.

sbell4 · October 2002

we got the new brochures today.

intmed99 · October 2002

From what i am seeing (from OFFICIAL Toyota info), the 4.7L V8 (235 HP/320 Torque) needs Premium fuel, same as GX470, LX470, and Land Cruiser. This is NOT an exact duplicate of the Sequoia/Tundra engine (240 HP/ 315 Torque), which uses regular fuel.

intmed99 · October 2002

http://www.top4runners.com/ja/runhist/2003tech.pdf

cliffy1 · October 2002

I'm still seeing this word "recommended" as opposed to "required" on the fuel type. Again, I wonder if it is like the current Avalons which "require" 87 but "recommend" 91 for "improved performance."

peter78 · October 2002

"rward99", sorry it took so long to respond to your request. To get to the comparison between the current 4Runner and Pathfinder go to the link I provided. It is from my local Toyota dealership. Other Toyota dealerships provide this service. Anyway go the link and pick "Toyota 4Ruuner" then click on "Nissan Pathfinder" for a comparison. The quote I gave came directly from the "Reliability" section.

http://www.atlantatoyota.com/frameset4.asp?LINK=NewCars&MAIN=comparison

kullenberg · October 2002

There is a preview test of the new 4Runner in the Car and Driver that came in the mail today. (timing is everything, isn't it) They seem to like it pretty well, and they made a lot of the same comments as have been made here, about cargo room, etc.. The felt the stability and anti-slip system (nanny systems - their words)were too intrusive.

peter78 · October 2002

"intmed99", good site on specs. But, oh no, Cargo room is down even more. 42.2 cubic feet or 40.6 with the double decker and with back seat down it is 75.1 or 72.4 with the double decker. I hadn't even considered less space with the double decker.

What is even more dissapointing is payload. 1,055 to 1,100 pounds. Get 4 good size guys in it and you might be able to carry one tooth brush. I remember the 3rd generation was 1,500 pounds to 1,900 pounds, (1,900 pounds was for the older 4 cylinder model). Still my particular model was 1,650 pounds and I think I have used every bit of payload on occasion.

intmed99 · October 2002

C&D keeps on thinking SUVs are sport cars! That is why they hate truck-based SUVs so much! I want VSC & ATRAC to intervene quickly and early when driving my 4Runner!! I bet they will complain about not having a switch to turn off VSC! Geez!

kullenberg · October 2002

YUP!

doudoudid · October 2002

Kullenberg - just wondering have you got the Nov. issue? that was quick! I've only got my first Oct. issue less than 2 weeks ago.... and it didn't mention any new 4runner info

vixter · October 2002

I got my info during an on-line virtual classroom which is part of my training with Toyota University. That doesn't mean to say that you are wrong, it's just what we were taught by Toyota. The link you sent however has me a little confused as to what the correct info. is. Thanks

bhajhama · October 2002

COLORS... Any information about colors, exterior and interior?

vixter · October 2002

SR5s Titanium, Galactic Grey Mica, Black Onyx, Impulse Red, Dorado Gold, Imperial Jade Mica and Pacific Blue Metallic all with stone cloth except Gold which gets fawn.
Limiteds get the same clours except for Impulse Red.

kullenberg · October 2002

Nov issue came today

feral · October 2002

On paper it appears that there isnt THAT much more head and leg room in the new 4runner, which is something that I was REALLY hoping for. It appears that it is much wider for the "horizontally challenged" but for the vertically gifted folk, well it looks like we are SOL. The head room is up a little BUT the leg room is almost an INCH SHORTER then the 02...

Hopefully they laid out the interior in an intelligent way so are knees dont hit the center console, etc. I am only 6'4" but i found the 02 to be too snug to justify paying $45k ( canadian ) for it.

02 03
Head room 39.3 39.7
Shldr room 53.6 58
Hip room 49.8 55.3
Leg room 42.6 41.7

i guess i am only 2 weeks from sitting in one so I will have to see if its going to be a 4runner or something else.

world_traveler · October 2002

Same thing here Feral. But my issues are around looks, price and 1st year model.

Gee, paying 40K plus (canandian) for a SR5 with all that plastic cladding and cloth interior is making me having second toughts. Despite enhanced off-road abilities (which I don't care for that much) the 2003 does not seem to be an upgrade to me. I think that my '99 Sr5 looks much more classy and plastic trims are minimum, and it cannot be considered 2 tones.

Pricing. Never would I pay more than 36-38k for something that has that much plastic over it. Unfortunetly the Limited will be out of range dor me....

1st year model. I'm having second thought. what if the 2004 fixes lots of problems and inconsistencies? What if it proposes change to address the body roll issue, if they remove that weird shelf in the back and offer color keyed cladding/fenders on SR5 in 2004 ???? Its making me think twice....

jasonj734 · October 2002

The Strike at the West Coast docks may hurt the release of the new Toyota 4runner and Kia Sorento according to an article I just read, It went into on how important these launches are and that if the strike is not ended the Launch of the 4runner/Serento may be damaged as units will be unavailable. Nissan says it will be pushing back the launch of the Infiniti M45 from Monday to a later day. All of the Auto companies are watching it closely, both Toyota and Kia said they may move to a contingence plan (Shipping vehicles through East Coast Ports) and have some vehicles in stock. But those were just initial shipments and will sell out fast.

What a blow to Toyota and Kia, Millions and Millions in Advertising to get people to the dealerships only to be told sorry we don't have that. At least Nissan is in the position to delay the launch, could make those new 2003 4runner snag even a higher price at the dealers, as they may be in real short supply.

iceman50 · October 2002

Cliffy in post #2816 you said

"Since posting this, I now believe that the KG option code on the sport and SR5 models is painted cladding in lieu of the black ones. If that is the case, there will be no Runners floating around this region with those dreaded black fenders. They will all be two tone of some variant. I find that a lot more tolerable."

Is the KG option code really painted cladding instead of black? All the photos seem to show different shades of gray cladding and none with black or same color cladding except for the limited. I was hoping to get an all black Sport. Also do you know any additional option codes besides the ones you posted? Thanks.

mackabee · October 2002

is for running boards, not for the fender flares. Painted flares option code is JZ which is on the 2002 runners and not showing anywhere on the TVO for 2003's.
Mackabee

tbcreative · October 2002

I talked to my Toyota guy today, who attended the first of a 3-day product education seminar on the 2003 today. There are 12 units sitting at the hotel where they're doing the training, so he was able to drive one this morning. He said this SUV is INCREDIBLE! Well worth the wait, sharper than imagined, and blows away most anything else out there. He said he drove up on an ascending on-ramp and had it up to 80 mph without even realizing it!

I asked him about the docks strike, and he told me that he's been told that Toyota is working to avoid any problems and that the prices are fixed and won't be affected, unless some dealerships decide to be jerks. He has no incentive to lie to me because I've told him I'm waiting for the V6s before I do anything, and then I'm waiting a bit for any kinks to get worked out, but he told me he has heard that a resolution is going to be worked out and Toyota will find a way to get the product here. I don't know all of the particulars involved, so I don't know for sure if he was just repeating some bull he heard, or if there's some fact to what he said, but he was sincere about it. And this is a very reputable dealership that doesn't charge destination or ad fees.

Toyota 4Runner

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