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Comments
There's wasting gas and wasting time.
(and save the pot shots about which one we're doing in here. :P )
There is no other acceptable definition of that. Driving 85 uses more fuel than driving 75, and 75 uses more fuel than 65. That's wasting fuel when your car is capable of going 65 mph instead of 85 mph.
Time is not an issue in that definition. I'm not disputing anyone else's definition.
I missed his definition - which post was that?
Whether it's wasted or not depends on your priorities. (post 121).
If they want to get somewhere faster, leave 5 minutes earlier.
I say let them drive as fast as they want - just don't let them complain when they get the Photo Radar ticket. Pay up and zip up.
This topic is more about the role of Photo Radar.
Isn't there another topic named "Is Speeding Morally Wrong, Illegal, Wasteful, and Stupid, Or Is It Just Me?"
It's the American way. :shades:
It's just you...
"Speeding" can mean driving 55 mph on a city street posted at 35 mph. Or driving 80 mph on a two-lane country road posted at 45 mph. We are not talking about those roads.
So those facts you highlighted are worthless to this discussion.
Your second link - which is from a law firm website; a hardly credible source, and I say this as an attorney - can't even get its facts straight.
It contains these sentences: "The rate of traffic accident fatalities in the State of Alabama has seen an overall increase since 1998. In 2004, the number of fatales (sic) from car accidents in Alabama was 1,154 deaths as compared to a total of 42,636 throughout the United States."
It talks about the "rate of traffic fatalities" but then refers to the raw number of fatalities for one year to supposedly prove its point. The raw number of fatalities and the rate of traffic fatalities are not the same thing.
The fatality rate is expressed in fatalities per 100 million miles driven. Your link doesn't even bother to show the increase in the raw number of fatalities from 1998 to 2004.
The numbers may very well have increased from 1998 to 2004, although we wouldn't know it from the site - given that Alabama is a growing state, there was undoubtedly an increase in both the number of vehicles, and how many miles said vehicles were driven from 1998 to 2004. That doesn't prove that speeding on limited access highways is dangerous. It may prove that more vehicles being driven more miles may result in more accidents.
Maybe those facts can be found by clicking on the "Alabama Auto Accident Information Center"...except that this only takes us to the firm's attorney referral site.
So, that factoid is worthless to this discussion, too.
Finally, your third link proves nothing, as well, except that survey questions can be framed in a manner to get the results sought by those giving the survey. Also note that the surveyors asked about photo enforcement to combat red-light and stop-sign running, which suggests that respondents were thinking of the use of photo enforcement in urban or suburban settings, not on limited access highways. So it's not really relevant to the discussion, either.
And at one time, a majority of people thought that Prohibition and the 55 mph speed limit were good ideas, too.
I found some stats earlier about a study by NHTSA about driver's attitudes and most of them don't like speeders.
And it varies widely by age. Young 'uns like to speed and don't mind other speeders and even get a thrill from speeding.
As you get mature, those feelings go away for the vast majority of people.
Only those with emotional immaturity or low IQs speed into middle age and older.
It's OK though. One day when your maturation process is complete you'll understand...............It's OK........
Which is your opinion, and you're entitled to it. Where you go wrong is in your next sentence....
larsb: There is no other acceptable definition of that.Driving 85 uses more fuel than driving 75, and 75 uses more fuel than 65. That's wasting fuel when your car is capable of going 65 mph instead of 85 mph.
Wrong. You're definition is not the only acceptable one.
Many of us believe that that the extra fuel used at higher speeds is worth it when balanced against the time saved, extra safety and the fact that it is usually more pleasurable to drive faster on limited access highways.
That is our OPINION, and it is just as valid as your opinion.
As you get mature, those feelings go away for the vast majority of people.
Only those with emotional immaturity or low IQs speed into middle age and older.
Um, I'm 46, and when I was in Arizona I was passed this summer by many middle-aged drivers traveling at 80+ mph, including the 60-something couple from California in a brand-new BMW 5-Series zipping along at 90 mph (with an Obama sticker on the bumper, no less).
It might help to actually pay attention the next time you drive...the minimum speed on most limited access highways away from urban areas is 75 mph, and lots of people are driving 80+ mph.
I regularly drive the Pennsylvania Turnpike, with a posted speed limit of 65 mph. Outside of the portions that ring the Philadelphia suburbs, if you aren't driving at least 70 mph, you are blocking traffic.
It might be helpful to learn about traffic safety, and how to actually intepret traffic safety statistics, and also learn how to see through a law firm shilling for business.
Your statement has three parts:
1. "the extra fuel used at higher speeds is worth it when balanced against the time saved." - That is a worthy opinion and I would agree with that. I do that on long trips - the faster I get there the better I like it. But I don't violate speed laws to do it.
2. "extra safety" - Complete poppycock. Driving faster is not safer in any stretch, unless driving slower would cause to you get rear-ended.
3. "the fact that it is usually more pleasurable to drive faster on limited access highways" - True for some people, but mostly only younger males. When you get older, driving is more of a CHORE than any kind of FUN. The faster you drive, the more you need to pay complete attention to the road, which is why younger drivers who drive fast have more fatal accidents.
And I have no problem with people driving 80 in a 75 zone - I do that myself. When you get above 85 though, your reaction time to avoid a potential problem is far far reduced.
And try to keep it civil.
I'm trying, but he keeps sniping away at me. ( You know I have learned through trial and error that attacking the person instead of the idea is not proper round here. )
Anyway, I am a fan of Photo Radar and anything else that gets people to pay attention to how fast they are driving.
Carry on....
Most people have a more sophisticated understanding of how speed limits work on limited access highways, why they are imposed, and their effectiveness, and therefore do not rank them with the Ten Commandments.
larsb: 2. "extra safety" - Complete poppycock. Driving faster is not safer in any stretch, unless driving slower would cause to you get rear-ended.
If anything, driving too slow can increase inattention. People are driving faster than ever, and roads are safer than ever, so, sorry, your contention that exceeding today's underposted speed limits makes limited access highways dangerous is not being borne out by real-world experience.
larsb: 3. "the fact that it is usually more pleasurable to drive faster on limited access highways" - True for some people, but mostly only younger males. When you get older, driving is more of a CHORE than any kind of FUN. The faster you drive, the more you need to pay complete attention to the road, which is why younger drivers who drive fast have more fatal accidents.
Many older people still love to drive, and don't consider it a chore - unless we are forced to toddle along at 65 mph or less to satisfy the slow and the clueless.
If YOU don't like to drive because of your age - although 43 is hardly old today - then I'd suggest moving to the city, selling your car and using mass transit.
Now, what exactly is that supposed to mean? If that is not an unfounded, totally heinous personal attack, then explain what you mean sir.
I'm going to say "Margarine is better for you than Butter" and you give me a rebuttal. Ready, GO !!!!!!!!!!!!!
JK....(sorta)..........you do have a propensity for long-winded replies though.
P.S. By the by: "unless we are forced to toddle along at 65 mph or less to satisfy the slow and the clueless." - Is that another personal attack?
Not all laws have the same gravity. We can figure out that first-degree murder is considerably more serious than driving 80 mph in the 65 zone. Guess what - the law recognizes this, too, which is why the potential penalities, and efforts directed at stamping out these offenses, are completely different.
And most people know the difference. If your child brings home a potential mate, would you rather have him or her say, "I'm on parole for first-degree murder after I shot my neighbor for playing his radio too loudly" or "I just got caught for driving 80 mph in the 65 zone"?
And the difference extends to statutes within the body of traffic law, too. Driving while intoxicated is a more serious offense than driving 80 mph in the 65 zone. You can lose your license automatically for the former, and face HUGE fines just for the first violation.
A police officer who pulls you over for doing 80 mph may let you go based on your demeanor, driving record, condition of your vehicle, etc. If you have a blood alcohol content (BAC) level of .10, the police officer will NOT let you go, even if it's your first offense, your car is a brand-new Camry, and you are president of the local Rotary Club.
Speed limits are based as much on political pressure and the need to raise revenue than on actual safety. The simple fact is that when I drive through Arizona, and everyone is driving 80+ mph - and it's not just teenagers in souped-up Mustangs and Civics with coffee-can exhausts - I can judge just how seriously everyone, including the police, take speeding on limited access highways, and how dangerous it really is.
Meanwhile, I didn't notice people shooting each other at the Grand Canyon, or pushing their spouses or children off the edge, so most people apparently think the laws against first-degree murder are a good idea. We also didn't rob any banks or convenience stores while we were there, because we realize how serious those offenses are.
I'm not saying "never speed." Nor am I saying "speeders equate to rapists." Nor am I saying "driving drunk but slow is OK but driving drunk but fast is not OK."
Here's a summation of my views on Photo Radar:
1. It's a good tool to remove a human officer from issuing speeding citations, which is a mundane and mostly time-wasting event (for BOTH parties) in the VAST majority of traffic stops.
2. It's not a violation of privacy in ANY WAY. You are on a public road, and can legally have no expectation of privacy.
3. It's a good way to generate revenue, in an era when cities are struggling to overcome budget shortfalls. It only affects people who are speeding (in most cases) at least 11 mile per hour over the limit. So "casual" speeders are not usually affected. "Arizona DPS reminds drivers that while cameras won’t catch you until you go 11 mph over the limit, officers can continue to issue citations at speeds below that threshold." So you are even getting a BREAK if you are in a photo enforcement zone !!!
4. It's a 100% avoidable violation.
5. You can argue the ticket in court if you challenge it.
6. It HAS slowed down freeway traffic in the Phoenix metro area and reduced accidents and saved lives, according to the latest statistics.
7. The DPS Web site says that nearly 50 percent of all speed-related crashes are single-vehicle accidents and that "the risk of death and injury is directly proportional to the level of speed."
8. Photo radar is as much of a deterrent — to slow you down — as they are "gotcha" tools to trip you up. If you know they're there, you'll watch your speed.
Did your time with the Marines make you paranoid...? If it doesn't apply, it shouldn't bother you.
You are simply saying "It's the law" when confronted with the fact that the majority of people speed on limited access highways, as though all laws are equal, and given equal weight by not only the public and those charged with their enforcement, when they are clearly not.
larsb: 1. It's a good tool to remove a human officer from issuing speeding citations, which is a mundane and mostly time-wasting event (for BOTH parties) in the VAST majority of traffic stops.
Absolutely not, unless you are adocating increased police protection of Dunkin' Donuts franchises, which is where most of the police will probably congregate.
Police on patrol do more than stop speeders. They also deter petty crimes that are not monitored by photo radar. Photo radar isn't going to stop someone from vandalizing your car, or snatching grandma's purse.
Photo radar can even backfire regarding traffic safety. When we visited London in 2006, one of the complaints of bicyclists was that the heavy reliance on photo radar for traffic enforcement had made the roads MORE dangerous for them...with no police around, drivers were becoming MORE reckless, especially around bicyclists, and photo radar could not stop this.
larsb: 3. It's a good way to generate revenue, in an era when cities are struggling to overcome budget shortfalls. It only affects people who are speeding (in most cases) at least 11 mile per hour over the limit. So "casual" speeders are not usually affected. "Arizona DPS reminds drivers that while cameras won’t catch you until you go 11 mph over the limit, officers can continue to issue citations at speeds below that threshold." So you are even getting a BREAK if you are in a photo enforcement zone !!!
Traffic enforcement should not be about raising revenue; this only increases cynicism and disrepect for all traffic laws.
larsb: 6. It HAS slowed down freeway traffic in the Phoenix metro area and reduced accidents and saved lives, according to the latest statistics.
Accidents and fatalities have been down throughout the nation for 2008, because of reduced driving brought on by higher fuel prices and the economic downturn - and the great majority of municipalities and states don't use photo radar.
lasrb: 7. The DPS Web site says that nearly 50 percent of all speed-related crashes are single-vehicle accidents and that "the risk of death and injury is directly proportional to the level of speed."
You do realize that "speed-related crashes" can include driving too fast for conditions (going 55 mph in an ice storm, for example), driving too slow, or even driving too fast while intoxicated? If a legally intoxicated driver kills someone while driving 75 mph in the 65 zone, it is considered a "speed related crash," even though the root of the problem was the drunk driving.
Do you also realize that state government websites regularly post phrases with sentences that say things like, "the risk of death and injury is directly proportional to the level of speed" without it necessarily being true? Especially since there has never been any proof of this. There is a difference between boilerplate to fill space and facts.
Well, it was to some degree even before Photo Radar came around. Now it's just more in the open.
That's why Photo Radar will never completely replace human traffic enforcement.
It's just another helpful tool.
To extent that photo radar enforcement is identified with signs on roads when used, then it is fair. Anybody complaining about it just underscores that they are really inattentive drivers and don't pay attention as they should to all types of traffic signs as required by law. If they are caught by camera having 10 mph fudge leeway, then they deserve the ticket.
It was wrong before, and it's wrong now. If it's more out in the open, instead of celebrating it, we need to take the correct approach and stop it.
I'd rather have drivers pay attention to the road and other traffic than sign announcing photo radar. And I don't want drivers on interstate highways suddenly slowing down for photo radar. That hardly improves safety.
And a "10 mph fudge leeway" is hardly adequate for today's conditions on limited access highways, especially where the speed limit is 65 mph.
It's time to take the modern, informed approach and accept that the MINIMUM speed on many of those roads is 70 mph, and many people drive 80-85 mph, and those who don't like it will just have to get used to it. People who want to toddle along like grandma in her Buick Century should perhaps stay home...
I am a young 63 year old. I personally find it more pleasurable to drive faster on limited access highways. I do not consider driving a chore.
You are not authorized to speak for anyone but yourself,
BTW I have Fresnel lens covers on my license plates so they can't get a picture of them.
One more item, no matter how fast or slow you drive, one should always pay complete attention to the road.
If speed was a cause, it would be a forgone outcome that any time one exceeded the posted limit, one would have an accident. The Autobahn effectively disproves this, since speeds are far higher and the death rates significantly lower than in the US. Coincidentally, the limits of highways are quite low considering that they were designed for higher speeds when they were built in the 50s-70s, a period when vehicles and tires were far less capable.
Every rule has exceptions, and you are one of them
Congrats.
Well, as a rule, yes you are correct. Speeding makes an accident worse in almost every case.
But speeding CAN be a CAUSE also.
Example: You are driving 40 in a 25 zone. A kid's ball bounces in front of you, and you brake and swerve toward the curb to avoid it. At 25 mph, you might stop before the curb or just bump it. At 40 mph, you more than likely will jump the curb and plow into whatever is there. Thus an accident which would not have occurred without speeding now has occurred because of speeding.
That's one example that just came to me, but you know there are many others.
But yes, as a rule, SPEEDING BY ITSELF rarely causes accidents. True.
The point remains that lower speeds can help you avoid accidents.
You drive 25 in a 25 zone, and the cause would be the kid's ball. You drive 40, and excessive speed becomes the culprit.
Depends. You could be driving 40 mph and be paying attention to the road ahead, and end up stopping in time. Or you could be yakking on the cell or playing with your Ipod or putting on makeup at 25 mph, and still end up causing a big mess.
The investment income can be allocated to filling pot holes,fixing guard rails, and building attitude adjustment chambers.
The only monetary concern of the violator is not where the fine money goes, but how the fine originates. When the violator doesn't want to come up with the fine, he can always submit to the law. It's another "Pay as you Go" idea.
I'm pretty much against any camera enforcement of traffic rules. One only need look at the fact that they generally do not carry points to see that deep down they don't believe these are enforceable tickets but, as has been pointed out to a fault here, but revenue enhancers.
I should go agreeing with larsb if only so grbeck can invite me for lunch. Unlike lars i could get to Harrisburg on one tank of gas.
I think the age observation isn't accurate. I'll be 58 tomorrow and the only thing slowing me down was adjusting to $4 gas over the summer. My cheapness won out over my thrill seeking.
Where the heck do you get fresnel lenses for license plates anyway?
I was addressing the gentleman who mentioned that speed does not cause accidents and pointing out to him in a NICE MANNERLY FASHION that yes, sometimes it DOES cause accidents.
Go Photo Radar !!!
When well connected crony capitalist camera operators skim off fortunes from ticket revenues, the taxpaying citizen has every right to know where the money goes, and should take legal or less than legal action against any irresponsible politoco who tries to hide it.
If one doesn't want to pay the fine, simply fib your way out of it. Easy as pie :shades:
Wait, didn't we spend four years trying to overthrow a regime like that back in the 1940's? :surprise:
As for that "investment income", rest assured it would go into some politician's pet project, or a pyramid scheme somewhere, and we'd still have just as many potholes, broken guardrails, etc, as before.
You do realize that you're talking about government officials and politicians, right? More likely the money is spent to hire someone's idiot brother for a no-show job or to pay for that no-bid contract they just gave to a campaign contributor. PR is at least partly a money grab and like all the other money the government grabs, I don't trust that it is spent for my benefit.
BTW, is an "attitude adjustment chamber" a bar or a jail?
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