I normally take my 03 V8 to the dealer for oil changes but thought I would try it once to see what was involved. Simple. There is a skid plate that prevents you from getting to the oil filter which is on the front driver side of the engine. The skid plate has 4 securing bolts. 2 in the front that thread into the front cross member and two at the back of the plate that will require a 4 inch extension as they are recessed. Remove these and pull the skid plate forward and down. You now hove a clear shot at the filter. To get to the oil drain plug on the engine there is an oval shaped plastic plug perhaps 3 inches by 6 inches in another skid plate that lies behind the one you just removed. Pop this plug out and you have easy access to the engine drain plug. I have changed my own oil in my vehicles for years. This procedure added an extra 5 minutes at most once I figured out how to do it. Good luck. Greg
Thanks Greg for posting your oil change experience. An extra 5 minutes invested doing your own oil is a small price to pay for the confidence that it's been done right. Another side benefit to being on your back looking up under your 4Runner every couple of months is catching anything else that might need closer scrutiny. Weather it has been boats, airplanes, motorcycles etc. I've always caught something over a period of time that justified putting my own hands and eyes on it!
The skids on the 4runner is about the same thickness as the Jeep's (my brother had an '01 Wrangler and now has an '03 Rubicon). They are tough enough for most off-roading, but if you're into rock climbing, then you may need an upgrade (as would you need to in a jeep). My '02 4runner's skid is holding up pretty well thru my off-roading trips.
The Lexus mechanic does not know what he's talking about. Both transfer cases are the same.
The only difference is that the GX has a manual lever, while 4runner is an electronic engagment (via dial). Personally, i prefer the lever because electronic dial can fail. However, i have not heard of any problems with the '03-up 4runner's system.
Just thought I'd chime in with another viewpoint on the Ext. Warranty purchase. I too, like the idea of 'peace of mind' but was enlightened by others on another forum about 'timing' when it came to the purchase. If you look at Toyota's site regarding this purchase (and I'm referring to the 'Platinum Protection';
...you'll see that it states the extended warranty can be purchased on "new vehicles" up until the vehicle exceeds the 36 month or 36,000 miles. The price should stay the same whether you purchase the plan when you buy the vehicle or up to 3 years later. And when you stop to think about what could happen in 3 years, (you may decide you no longer like the vehicle, you may be spending too much time in the shop and don't want to deal with the repairs anymore - regardless of whether it's covered or not, the vehicle could be stolen or God forbid, totalled in an accident). Even thought the warranty is transferable (for a $50 fee), I think it might be better to wait until you're closer to the end of the 36/36K period. Just something to consider.
The backup camera works well, but its function is limited. You do not use is to view traffic. If you are backing out of your driveway, you still need to look back to see if traffic is approaching from either direction. But it is great for backing up in a tight spot, or for backing up close to a wall or other object. You know how far you can back up, so you can back up closer to the object. The camera shows you the area right behind you, which you cannot see from the driver's seat. It also show a bit to the side. It's a neat toy, and sometimes very handy, but not a necessity. If you have any interest in a 3rd row, I would not trade the 3rd row for the camera alone.
As far as the conflict with the 3rd row, I believe it is because the navigation system is housed in the rear compartment, near one of the wheel wells. I noticed some markings indicating the navigation system is there in what looks like would otherwise be a storage bin. I'm not exactly sure why, but that space is somehow used or needed for the 3rd row. It seems like the two options should not be mutually exclusive, but I guess the is some reason they could not find space for both.
We are also looking for vehicle with a decent 3rd row. We are looking at the Sequoia but keep thinking that it is just too much money right now.
What kind of cargo space is left in the Highlander and 4Runner with the 3rd row being used. I've seen the Pilot and the Explorer and it's disappointing.
Would you say that if you want a decent 3rd row and cargo space, you need to go with the Sequoia or a minivan?
Depending on how you configure a Sequoia, pricing can be pretty similar to a 4Runner. With the Sequoia, you do get so much more space, even with the third row seats in place. Not much is left with the 4Runner's 3rd row in place.
If you want lots of room and all weather driveability (with some off roading built in, then the Sequoia is better for you. The Highlander is a great vehicle and provides a bit more space than the 4Runner with better on road driveability.
If you want lots of space, a minivan is your best bet. They are still good in most driving conditions since they have front wheel drive. I guess you should also consider if you live in a snowbelt and roads are properly plowed in a timely manner, a Highlander or Sequoia are the way to go. Also, with the Highlander, since it is lower to the ground, you can always use the roof rack for extra cargo easily.
If you are disappointed with the Pilot and Explorer than you will not like the 4Runner's cargo capacity with 3rd row seats. The 4Runner is built as a truck with a strong leaning towards off-roading. It's built up alot tougher than the Explorer or Pilot at the expense on interior space. The Pilot has the most room in the class of suv I think.
Toyota is handing out alot of year-end clearance rebates right now so maybe the Seqouia is more affordable than you think? Check edmunds.com's TMV pricing. They have rebates listed there also.
If you want TRUE 3rd row seating and cargo room than definitely a minivan. No question, no substitute. Honda Odyssey and Toyota Sienna are the best ones right now.
I am drooling...Great link. One thing though, I am more concerned now of people watching The Matrix as they wrap their spanking new 4Runner around a telephone poll. ....
In reply to an earlier post, I have had an 04 4runner with 3rd row seats for about a month now. I have two children ages 4 & 1, with the possibility still open for another. We elected to go with the 3rd row mainly for that potential. We chose the 4runner over some of the other competitors incl Highlander and Pilot due to a need for higher towing capability than either of the others.
Regarding the 3rd seat,they are removeable and ours have been out since the end of the 1st week. They are of marginal utility due to a lack of a footwell combined with minimal knee room behind second seat. That being said, they would be better than nothing for the rare occasions, fo 4 to 10 year olds, or any age kid that's willing to rough back there. There is virtually no cargo space with the seats in place, though they can be folded to make for a small cargo area. the two seats can be folded and/or removed individually.
Hope that helps.
By the way, enjoying the truck so far, but a little disappointed in the fuel computer on the dash. Over the last 1000 miles (4 tankfuls), the computer reads 16.4 mpg (approx. 90% urban/city driving), butactual according to fuel refills is more like 14.4 mpg.
Hmm, can you say coverup? It is interesting though that out of all the densely populated places in the US, an accident possibly caused by a DVD movie happens in Alaska...with another auto! A carribou maybe, but another auto? Wow. I would have thought a techno savvy, densely populated area like NY or LA would have a higher chance of such an "visually entertaining" accident.
My Toyota dealership is a recipient of Toyota's "Presidential Award" and it just so happens that they are also newly offering and promoting a group of products by a company called Krex (http://www.krexinc.com/), including Krex' graphite engine lubricant (and other krex products), and my dealer's printed service menu brochure says: "...This maintenance schedule is recommended for the customer that wants the best maintenance service for their vehicle, with the least amount of worry... they will automatically receive our complementary...Customer Protection Package which includes 120 days of of Roadside Assistance and Road Hazard Tire Protection. (See advisor for complete details)..."
I have repeatedly attempted to conduct an online search for testimonials regarding Krex products, but alas, there seems to be very little online information about Krex products. That said, I found a very interesting online article by Baum & Olsen Advertising and Marketing at http://www.baumolsen.com/baumolsen/html/old_news.html and I found the following exerpt from this link to be especially interesting, which reads as follows: "...Krex, Inc. offers preventative maintenance products for automotive dealerships, including graphite engine lubricants and fuel injection cleaners, as well as a range of customer retention programs. Krex is based out of Northbrook, Illinois... Baum&Olsen’s first effort for Krex is a direct marketing program aimed at new car dealerships... Says Bruce Olsen, Partner of Baum&Olsen, “New car dealers are looking for compelling ways to bring their customers back between car purchases. Krex’ products and programs are designed to add value to oil changes and scheduled maintenance – a source of huge potential revenue for service departments. Our job as their marketing partner is to help Krex get their salespeople in front of these dealers, so they can help them better compete with the Jiffy Lubes of the world.”"
The Kenai Peninsula is not all that remote. It's only a couple hours from Anchorage and there's a fair number of houses and cars on the road. True, it isn't suburban Detroit. But it isn't Nome.
Krex is a waste of money. Your excerpt explains it all. It is simply there to bring people into the service departments.
It is that mentality that if "factory recommended" is good, than adding something will make it better. This is a false assumption that there is something deficient or low quality with factory spec.
Toyota invested hundreds of millions of dollars on this one model alone. I can't imagine the tooling costs. All this and do you think some small company like Krex or the million other snake oils on the pep boys shelves will improve on Toyota's research into their own product?
If you did NOTHING else than exactly what the manual suggests, you will run at least 10 years without a loss in performance. At least.
Just as if your car is rated for 87 octane and you use 91. The mentality is that if 87 is good, 91 is better. Wrong. It does nothing to improve performance unless you have knocking or something associated with a higher octane requirement. 91 isn't "better" for your car, it is a different requirement. That's all. But gas companies make a whole lot of money from people who think it is better.
Oil additives are the same way. What long term testing have they done with Krex? What kind of r&d? Is your engine going to look like sludge in 5 years? My point is it could help but it could hurt. Most likely, it could do absolutely nothing except relieve you of alot of money.
I agree with terrafirma and many others that it is NOT a good idea to use oil additives. I know this is a Toyota thread but thought I would share this TSB from Chrysler regarding additives, there is some very interesting information here that I think would apply to any vehicle gas engine.
09-003-01 USING SUPPLEMENTAL OIL ADDITIVE TREATMENTS Date: 05/04/01
Description: This bulletin reinforces a requirement to cease the current practice of using supplemental oil additive treatments in all DaimlerChrysler engines.
Details: Engine oil additives/supplements (EOS) should not be used to enhance engine oil performance. Engine oil additives/supplements should not be used to extend engine oil change intervals. No additive is known to be safe for engine durability and can degrade emission components.
Additives can contain undesirable materials that harm the long term durability of engines by:
1. Doubling the level of Phosphorus in the engine oil. The ILSAC (International Lubricant Standard Approval Committee) GF-2 and GF-3 standards require that engine oil contain no more than 0.10% Phosphorus to protect the vehicles emissions performance. Addition of engine oil additives/supplements can poison, from the added sulfur and phosphorus, catalysts and hinder efforts to guarantee our emissions performance to 80,000 miles and new requirements of 150,000 miles.
2. Altering the viscosity characteristics of the engine oil so that it no longer meets the requirements of the specified viscosity grade.
3. Creating potential for an undesirable additive compatibility interaction in the engine crankcase. Generally it is not desirable to mix additive packages from different suppliers in the crankcase; there have been reports of low temperature engine failures caused by additive package incompatibility with such mixtures.
The Seward Highway on the Kenai has the highest percentage of RV's during the summer months of any highway in North America.
Well, maybe not, but it sure feels that way if you're stuck behind one trying to get to a fishing stream.
I don't remember any Toyota fuel tank leak recalls except with the new Sienna. Did I miss this one? (USA Today) Or is this same thing as the pulsation recall?
When I bought my 4Runner, I let myself get suckered in to the Toyota Guard pitch, and I paid for the stuff. Because there are so many suckers like me, I had to schedule to have the treatment applied a couple weeks later. So I just picked up my 4Runner. I was told they would apply some teflon sealant on the paint and something like scotchguard on the interior. I have my doubts about the benefits of this stuff, but here is what I was not expecting--they smeared some creepy waxy stuff all over my interior panels, dash, center console, instrument panel, etc... The stuff smells like a cheap carwash airfreshener. It is shiny and greasy and lame. The worst of it is that the vehicle no longer smells new. Brother and Sister 4Runner owners, don't make the mistake I made.
..Oooops, you've been slimed. My salesman, the comedian, who actually pitched in to help the prep guy wash my car before delivery, told me the single most profitable option ($275.00?) they offer to new car buyers is the "Permaguard" treatment-costs $2.00 in materials, and $20.00 in labor to apply/wipe off the product. His guess was that it was probably Turtle wax. probably the same as your Toyota guard.I got suckered into it years ago on a Pathfinder. My perfect red truck came back covered with machine buffer swirl marks. They didn't have the decency to wash it first before applying the "Permaguard". A professional detailer was called in to hand rub the entire truck to remove the swirls. What a joke!! Larry
I have just picked up my 4Runner today and have noticed light vibration in break pedal when applying. It goes away shortly. Is that normal? Did anyone else notice that?
There is a town of Kenai, about 110 miles South of Anchorage. I worked there one Summer while going to College. I worked construction on an Ammonia plant in Kenai. That was back in 1967. Interesting, there were Russian log cabins still standing in Kenai from when the Russians owned Alaska. The log houses were hewn perfectly square and fit together exactly, there was no earth chinking like American pioneer log houses. There were no windows, only a door. There was almost no traffic back then. Local people ate moose and caught salmon and smoked it.
Occasionally my 2003 Toyota Sport V-8 will downshift when you press on the brake pedal. At first I thought that it was just coincidental and that the tranny was just downshifting as the car got slower, but I don't think this is the case. Is this normal, if so what dictates the downshift?
You can find a list of posts about the vibration in break pedal under problems and solutions, mainly posted by Oscar and myself. Basically it's not normal and you will need to have your booster (master cylinder) replaced. If your service rep gives you a hard time, or tells you that it's 'normal', don't buy it. Have him call the Toyota Field Service Tech. That person will most likely recommend booster replacement.
I had the same problem and got it fixed a week ago. The vibration is gone, and I notice that both the Downhill assist and hill start assist are working better than before. My only complaint now is that I hear a 'swish' noise when I press the brake pedeal, but the FST says it's normal.
Are you getting the swishing noise now? At any rate, please keep us updated and post your results!
Let me preface this by saying I have worked for a few years in an oil company lubricant R&D laboratory, so I have been exposed to and tested numerous (not all) additives for engine oils.
My answer to your question about additives lies somewhere in the middle. First, I would not add anything to engine oils in a hope of increasing engine life. The additive packages currently used are adequate to give your engine a long life if it is well-engineered, well-built, and if you change your oil and filter regularly. Most of the additives fall under the category of snake oil. There are some that may help, but there is no data to support that. The above factors, engineering, assembly, and oil-change frequency induce such a large variability into the equation, it is impossible to sort out whether a long-lived engine is a result of an additive or one of the other factors. Same for a short-lived one. It is impossible (or at least too costly) to build a number of engines that are truly identical to accurately test these additives.
Most additives in cans are simply increased concentrations of those already present in motor oil, such as zinc dithiophosphate or a polymeric VI improver. The biggest change you can make to your engine under the above contraints is to use a high quality filter and use pure synthetic motor oil.
One additive I have found (by personal use) to have an postive affect on an engine is graphite. Apparently a number of engines had trouble with ARCO graphite motor oil (related to crankcase sludge) when it was used a few years ago and it was probably discontinued for this reason. I used this motor oil in a 454 chevy engine with a carburetor. My engine idled 400 rpm faster with this oil in it. Change the oil to any other brand and the idle returned to normal. There may be a different interpretation of this observation, but I am convinced that the ARCO graphite decreased cylinder wall-piston ring and perhaps cam-to-lifter friction to the extent that it had such a remarkable effect on my engine (454 had huge pistons and large cylinder wall contact area). Unfortunately, this effect on idle speed is only measurable with carburetors that have non-computer controlled idle speeds. I guess with current engines, measuring throttle opening or intake manifold vacuum are the only ways to determine if your engine is gaining power at idle by varying oil additives. The increased lubricant properties of this oil were also seen in controlled laboratory experiments. I had never seen any other additive that produced a significant change in lubricating ability other than the graphite in ARCO graphite.
ARCO graphite was unique in that it contained 1% colloidal graphite (alot) and that may be the reason for the effect. It had such a high load of graphite it was opaque. None of the graphite additives I have seen recently (including the Krex additive) have had sufficient graphite to even be visible. I doubt they have more than a trace of graphite.
In summary, use of these additives borders on faith and belief with no real supporting data. Even in a laboratory, none of the additives I have tested (other than the 1% graphite in ARCO graphite motor oil) showed the ability to improve motor oil.
My 2003 LTD V8 does this, too. I'm assuming it's normal, and part of the 5 speed transmission's computer to aid slowing via engine braking. It seems to do this most to me when I'm headed downhill, lighly breaking.
Last night we had a constant wintery drizzle, wind and low clouds. Basically the weather was horrible for humans, awesome for the 4Runner. I was one of the few on the highway. Well, the Runner was absolutley awesome! The V8 hummed poetically, the full time 4x4 system gripped and grabbed like I was on a rail, radio was relaying Vivaldi like the Garden and I was totally confident in my Runners ability to deliver me safely. The new 4Runner V8 is an absolutely fantastic vehicle! The only complaint...wish the rear window washer had an adjustable intermittent cycle.
Sacstate1: Do you have a Limited? I don't know if the 4Runner SR5 or Sport models have any different front and rear wiper features than the Limited, but my 2003 4Runner Ltd.'s rear wiper has a variable intermittent setting. However, the speed control for the rear wiper's intermittent setting is the same one that controls the front wipers, so you can't independently control the two.
Regarding the rear spoiler, I'll mention that a couple of nights ago I drove the 40 miles to home (from work) during a heavy rain, traveling at mostly highway speeds. When I briefly watched my rearview mirror, I noticed that my rear glass remained remarkably clear even without the intermittent rear wiper. But even more interesting was how a streak of water would periodically SHOOT down over the rear glass, and visually this looked a bit like a shooting star, if you will. I postulate that what's probably happening here is that as the large amount of rain water is being swept backward over the top of the truck, it briefly pools-up at the rear of the roof (due to weak electrostatic forces?) before the pools become large enough to spill onto the top of the rear glass. And when this happens, these large water blobs are forcefully blown downward by the strong downward-directed air stream created by the spoiler, and this is what creates the "shooting star" appearance of the rain water. If this description isn't clear enough, then think back to how water behaves when you go through a car wash and the accumulated water gets blown (or sucked) over the vehicle's glass as you enter the forced-air drying phase of the car wash... In summary, I continue to find that this rear air spoiler actually works very effectively to keep the rear glass clear during heavy rain at highway speeds, and therefore the spoiler is not just nonfunctional gingerbread.
Regarding the discussion I started concerning lubricant additives, I chose to present my (admittedly) scant web-based findings without introducing much of my own "editorializing" on the subject. The Baum $ Olsen quote I included tends to speak for itself, huh? At any rate, thanks to all who offered their insightful opinions and expertise regarding this issue. As for myself, I'm very skeptical about such lubricant additives, and this is why I started the discussion in the first place. In fact, I'm even a bit leery of synthetic oils, because while these expensive products are claimed to offer much longer oil change intervals, there is still the issue of whether synthetic oils can adequately BUFFER accumulating ACIDS for such long oil-change intervals, as well as to safely handle accumulating water over the same intervals.
Now, as far as fuel system/injector cleaners are concerned, I still swear by Chevron Techron (based on my experience with past vehicles), and unless you can give me a really good reason to not use Techron in a tank of fuel at every oil change interval, I will continue this practice! Any comments?
There is a forum dedicated only to oils/additives/filters-not cars or trucks. Is that ok to post here or does it break the rules?
I like synthetic oils. There is alot of research and real-world results from using it. Not only in cars but extreme uses such as aircraft and heavy machinery. I like the longer intervals since I don't like to spend weekends on anything that takes away from eating chips and scratching my butt. Plus it's proven to not sludge up in extreme conditions (towing for example) or break down as fast as regular oil.
There is a big debate about it but here is my rule of thumb: 1. Too many rules makes your thumb very hard to read 2. If you like to change the oil on a regular basis- ie; really into maintainence- than regular oil is the ticket. Good and saves money. 3. If you like to scratch your butt on weekends than synthetics that cost more but go twice as long - are the ticket.
Rogers12, I don't believe the expense of synthetic is justified for regular motor vehicle use and the driving that most of us do. Not even when I lived in the far north (110 miles north of Kenai <g> - Pat, you beat me up there by 6 years!).
I stretch my dino oil/filter changes out to 7,500 miles and beyond. I haven't had time to follow the oil boards for a year or so, but I never saw a petroleum engineer or prof weigh in with any comments sufficient to sway me towards synthetic.
There is alot of discussions about this and there is no clear-cut definition of when to use these. Here is my opinion:
Background information: All motor oils are mixtures of a base oil, VI improver (Viscosity Index or rate of change of viscosity with temperature), and an additive package and possibly other additives. The base oil is a 0W, 5W, 10W, etc. single viscosity oil, whether it be Dino oil or synthetic. This is the first number in a multi-vis oil like 5W-30. The multi-vis rating is obtained by adding the VI improver which is commonly a methacrylate polymer that decreases the rate at which the oil thins as it becomes hotter. As the polymer heats up, the chains tangle less with themselves and tangle more with each other, increasing their apparent molecular weight (thus viscosity). This counteracts the thinning of oil as it gets hotter, increasing the apparent viscosity at higher temperatures compared with the base oil without the VI improver.
The additive package in an oil is a validated mixture of chemicals that imparts the majority of the lubrication, dispersant, anti corrosion, and anti oxidation qualities to the base oil. There are a number of acceptable additive packages available and the oil company is free to choose any of them for their motor oil and then they don't have to independently prove their oil meets SJ or other standards.
It is easy for any oil to lubricate bearings under no load conditions. The important work that lubricating oils (and whose properties are imparted exclusively by the additive packages) do is prevent metal-to-metal contact when the loads are high (such as in rubbing surfaces like cams/lifters or on cylinder walls when the normal oil layer has been removed (cold cranking).
Zinc dithiophosphate is a typical additive (included in the additive packages) for dry lubrication of metal surfaces. It binds to the metal surface and absorbes the load instead of allowing metal-to-metal contact.
Antioxicants are another additives that protect the oil from oxidation until they are used up. Then the oil begins to oxidize and becomes thicker and its lubricating properties start to go down the drain quickly. This and water contamination are the main sludge producers.
Another killer of engines is corrosion due to acids and water created by combustion. The water must be removed by heating the oil during long drives. Corrosion by acids is, for the most part, prevented by additives that neutralize the acid. I have described these because the majority of the properties of oils are induced by the additive packages and very little by the quality of the base oil.
The advantages of synthetic oils are in their lesser volatility (of the base oil) and much less tendency to oxidize, owing to the lower levels of aromatics and other impurities (in the base oil).
The few disadvantages of synthetic oils results from the same qualities. Synthetic oils are so pure that they must be adulterated to allow the additive package to dissolve in them. Pure synthetic base oils are very poor solvents for additive packages, whereas Dino base oils are good to excellent solvents depending on their source in the world. Used to be the Pennsylvania crude oils were the best in this regard.
Cutting to the chase - Dino oils are adequate when cars are driven often to distances that allow the engine to heat up and run at operating temperature for at least a short time before they are allowed to cool down. This evaporates the water and, to a lesser extent, unburned fuel from the oil. Changing the oil frequently will prevent using up of the preservative oil additives and everything will be fine. Older engines (more blow-by) and hotter-running engines (higher rate of oxidation) will be more prone to killing oil and need more frequent oil changes.
Synthetic oils have the following advantages. As stated above, synthetic oils are very non-polar and thus get rid of water contamination faster and at lower temperatures since water is very polar and water and synthetic oil do not like each other as much as water and Dino oil do. They therefore have an advantage for cars that are not driven long enough to heat up the engine with regularity. No oil will protect an engine that is never run up to operating temperature.
Synthetic oils are very resistant to oxidation for much longer periods of time than dino oil. They therefore do not thicken from oxidation. Other additives will probably be used up before the base oil begins to oxidize. Synthetic oils need to be changed to maintain the oil filter quality and to keep the additive package from being used up. Dino oils oxidize and thus need to be changed for that reason, if not for reasons of contamination.
As far as easier starting in cold weather goes, fresh 5W-30 synthetic oil flows exactly the same as fresh 5W-30 Dino oil. The change comes about after use. Synthetic oil only thickens after extreme age. Dino oil thickens slightly immediately (due to evaporation of the low-boiling oil components) and then thickens slowly from then on due to slow oxidation.
Steve - sorry if this is too off-topic, but I didn't see your post until after I wrote this.
I'd like to hear some recommendations from fellow (and gal) owners of 2003 4runner limiteds regarding buying bolt on three piece grill guards, a rear bumper guard and tail light guards. who do you think makes the best and the best-looking. and who has the best prices if say i order on-line and then have them installed. an accessories dealer in my area, northwest connecticut, says the whole package installed is about $1000, buying everything from him and having him install them. he says he thinks the best products are from westin automotive and manik...he's says better and better fit than from a company called wagg. it's a leased vehicle -- 39 months, so i don't want to invest a ton of money, but my wife and i like the rugged look and the protection these parts offer. moreover, we live in deer country and when we're not here we're in manhattan...so protection not just aesthetics is important. any and all opinions will be appreciated.
I have read that certain of these devices can interfere with the proper operation of the air bags ( front bumper guards ). I would want assurances that this is not the case before I installed anything on the front end for mainly looks that might impact my safety. Just FYI.
Waag is the only way to go. The best quality and you can install the whole thing under 30 minutes yourself. No reason to pay anyone. Go to accessories section and see pictures of my 4Runner. For the front I have placed FrontRunner instead of three piece. Back you will have the same as mine. Company I recommend to buy from is Everything SUV. Great people to work with. The whole package delivered around $500.
Guards will not decrease performance of air bags in an accident which would deploy them. They are not that tough. They are great for small fender benders as they will protect your bumpers and keep scratch free. Also they make your vehicle look good.
"As for those who would negatively or disparagingly describe the new 4Runner's riding and handling characteristics as "truck-like", I would first respond by asking whether or not they've actually driven the vehicle."
I would describe the ride of my 2003 4Runner V8 LTD as truck-like. I've put just about 5000 miles on it. It's ride is better than most other trucks I've driven, but it is still a truck and not a car. You're not going to mistake it for a sports sedan or sports wagon (e.g., A4 wagon).
Terrafirma, the reason that I suggest that someone compare it to an A4 wagon or Passat wagon is that the price is similar and for many people an A4 or Passat or BMW wagon might be a better choice. For me, an A4 wagon is not a better choice because it won't get take me out on the beach road at Cape Pogue to go fishing. Or rather, it would get me about 15 feet onto the beach road before getting stuck up to its axles in sand...
But for shopping at the mall on a snowy day, some people might be better served by a wagon. I want the off-road capability of the 4Runner, so I'm willing to accept the tradeoffs (rougher ride, poorer handling, etc.). For someone who doesn't need the off-road capability, they might want to consider a car, minivan, or car-based SUV instead.
Lots of bull bar & nudge bar info from Down Under. This link for example. Teoma or google for lots more, especially from ~1997 when Australia was doing rule making about them.
Be carefull of taillight guards. If you mainly go offroad in bushy/woodsy country, guards that stick out to the side of the vehicle's taillights can actually catch larger branches between the guard and the lens. I saw this happen on a Grand Cherokee; the branch bent the guard out of shape, the lens cracked. Maybe not common, but something to think about if you drive in the woods. Larry
The Q&A below is from the Waag frequently asked questions section. If the guard shifts the crash impact away from the airbag sensors, then the airbags will not deploy at the proper time. Obviously, the testing that would be necessary to prove that grill guards do not impact airbag deployment would be prohibitively expensive.
The answer below seems to imply that the existence of factory grill guards means that grill guards are safe. I have seen a number of posts about the factory grill guards being extremely weak (4Runner, for example, breaking off when someone nudged a garage wall). I do not think that it is safe to assume that if a factory option exists, then aftermarket alternatives have the same design priorities.
--------------- Q: Do you have any information on how grille guards affect deployment of air bags?
A: There is no conclusive or comprehensive data at this time regarding air bags deployment and opinions vary to say the least. Some vehicle manufacturers, most notably Ford, Nissan and GM offer a factory grille guard for some of their trucks, so you may be able to draw your own conclusions from that. We consider our guard a medium-strength guard, suitable for pushing a vehicle, but one that will crush in an accident. ---------------
Well, waiting for the black 4Runner how we want it equipped seems to be a ways off. The dealer brought in the Dorado Gold, which we actually ended up liking, so it looks like we may have a new truck tomorrow. I'm buying it at invoice, plus a $300 dealer fee.
When I checked the dealer's invoice, I noticed a few strange things, and just wanted to get your opinions. Unfortunately, Toyoguard was installed at port, and they're saying the invoice for that is $481. I was under the assumption that the invoice for this was around $225. Anyone know for sure?
Also, there's a $575 "Southeast Toyota Administrative fee" which I assume equates to the destination charge. So that I can live with. Then, there's another $575 charge listed as "Delivery, processing, and handling". What do you think about this? Worth arguing about? I have a feeling if we want the truck, they are going to go off their invoice, not the Edmunds' invoice.
For what it's worth, there are 2 columns on the dealer invoice - invoice and MSRP. The "SE Toyota Admin Fee" of $575 is added into the invoice column, but not the MSRP column, and the $575 Delivery and Processing fee is added to both the invoice and MSRP columns. Also, from KBB, I pulled this: "Southeast Toyota Administration Charge (Req'd in Alabama, Florida, Georgia, North Carolina & South Carolina) (Cost Will Be Automatically Included in Dealer Invoice Model Price) - No Charge" Is the dealer adding in some charges here?
One last thing - the truck came with Bridgestone Duelers. Would you suggest pushing for some Goodyears or Michellans?
Thanks all! Aaron - maybe soon to be owner of 2004 Dorado Gold Limited V8 4x2 with X-REAS, JBL, side curtain airbags and sunroof.
Comments
How well does the back-up camera work?
Realize that if you had to choose again you may take the 3rd seat option but overall, how do you like the navigation system?
...Do not understand why the navigation is deleted from 4Runners with the 3rd seat option.
Thanks,
Bob
The Lexus mechanic does not know what he's talking about. Both transfer cases are the same.
The only difference is that the GX has a manual lever, while 4runner is an electronic engagment (via dial). Personally, i prefer the lever because electronic dial can fail. However, i have not heard of any problems with the '03-up 4runner's system.
Thai.
http://www.toyotafinancial.com/pyv/extended_service_coverage/n_in- dex.html
...you'll see that it states the extended warranty can be purchased on "new vehicles" up until the vehicle exceeds the 36 month or 36,000 miles. The price should stay the same whether you purchase the plan when you buy the vehicle or up to 3 years later. And when you stop to think about what could happen in 3 years, (you may decide you no longer like the vehicle, you may be spending too much time in the shop and don't want to deal with the repairs anymore - regardless of whether it's covered or not, the vehicle could be stolen or God forbid, totalled in an accident). Even thought the warranty is transferable (for a $50 fee), I think it might be better to wait until you're closer to the end of the 36/36K period. Just something to consider.
The backup camera works well, but its function is limited. You do not use is to view traffic. If you are backing out of your driveway, you still need to look back to see if traffic is approaching from either direction. But it is great for backing up in a tight spot, or for backing up close to a wall or other object. You know how far you can back up, so you can back up closer to the object. The camera shows you the area right behind you, which you cannot see from the driver's seat. It also show a bit to the side. It's a neat toy, and sometimes very handy, but not a necessity. If you have any interest in a 3rd row, I would not trade the 3rd row for the camera alone.
As far as the conflict with the 3rd row, I believe it is because the navigation system is housed in the rear compartment, near one of the wheel wells. I noticed some markings indicating the navigation system is there in what looks like would otherwise be a storage bin. I'm not exactly sure why, but that space is somehow used or needed for the 3rd row. It seems like the two options should not be mutually exclusive, but I guess the is some reason they could not find space for both.
Brian
If you only intend small children to use the third row seats, than either vehicle can fit the bill.
Enjoy.
http://www.digitalpimp.org/~john/Videos/4Runner%20Stuff/2003%204R- unner/
http://www.digitalpimp.org/~john/Videos/4Runner%20Stuff/Amicalola- %20Falls_Anderson%20Creek%203_03/
What kind of cargo space is left in the Highlander and 4Runner with the 3rd row being used. I've seen the Pilot and the Explorer and it's disappointing.
Would you say that if you want a decent 3rd row and cargo space, you need to go with the Sequoia or a minivan?
All opinions appreciated. Thanks.
If you want lots of room and all weather driveability (with some off roading built in, then the Sequoia is better for you. The Highlander is a great vehicle and provides a bit more space than the 4Runner with better on road driveability.
If you want lots of space, a minivan is your best bet. They are still good in most driving conditions since they have front wheel drive. I guess you should also consider if you live in a snowbelt and roads are properly plowed in a timely manner, a Highlander or Sequoia are the way to go. Also, with the Highlander, since it is lower to the ground, you can always use the roof rack for extra cargo easily.
The 4Runner is built as a truck with a strong leaning towards off-roading. It's built up alot tougher than the Explorer or Pilot at the expense on interior space.
The Pilot has the most room in the class of suv I think.
Toyota is handing out alot of year-end clearance rebates right now so maybe the Seqouia is more affordable than you think? Check edmunds.com's TMV pricing. They have rebates listed there also.
If you want TRUE 3rd row seating and cargo room than definitely a minivan. No question, no substitute. Honda Odyssey and Toyota Sienna are the best ones right now.
Good luck with your search.
http://www.nav-tv.com/
The system is likely intended to only allow watching while the car is NOT moving... but folks have figured out ways of bypassing it.
Steve, Host
Regarding the 3rd seat,they are removeable and ours have been out since the end of the 1st week. They are of marginal utility due to a lack of a footwell combined with minimal knee room behind second seat. That being said, they would be better than nothing for the rare occasions, fo 4 to 10 year olds, or any age kid that's willing to rough back there. There is virtually no cargo space with the seats in place, though they can be folded to make for a small cargo area. the two seats can be folded and/or removed individually.
Hope that helps.
By the way, enjoying the truck so far, but a little disappointed in the fuel computer on the dash. Over the last 1000 miles (4 tankfuls), the computer reads 16.4 mpg (approx. 90% urban/city driving), butactual according to fuel refills is more like 14.4 mpg.
graphite engine lubricant (and other krex products), and my dealer's printed service menu brochure says: "...This maintenance schedule is recommended for the customer that wants the best maintenance service for their vehicle, with the least amount of worry... they will automatically receive our complementary...Customer Protection Package which includes 120 days of of Roadside Assistance and Road Hazard Tire Protection. (See advisor for complete details)..."
I have repeatedly attempted to conduct an online search for testimonials regarding Krex products, but alas, there seems to be very little online information about Krex products. That said, I found a very interesting online article by Baum & Olsen Advertising and Marketing at http://www.baumolsen.com/baumolsen/html/old_news.html and I found the following exerpt from this link to be especially interesting, which reads as follows: "...Krex, Inc. offers preventative maintenance products for automotive dealerships, including graphite engine lubricants and fuel injection cleaners, as well as a range of customer retention programs. Krex is based out of Northbrook, Illinois... Baum&Olsen’s first effort for Krex is a direct marketing program aimed at new car dealerships... Says Bruce Olsen, Partner of Baum&Olsen, “New car dealers are looking for compelling ways to bring their customers back between car purchases. Krex’ products and programs are designed to add value to oil changes and scheduled maintenance – a source of huge potential revenue for service departments. Our job as their marketing partner is to help Krex get their salespeople in front of these dealers, so they can help them better compete with the Jiffy Lubes of the world.”"
Any thoughts?
I have heard of Krex products,but I personally don't see any need to use them.
It is that mentality that if "factory recommended" is good, than adding something will make it better. This is a false assumption that there is something deficient or low quality with factory spec.
Toyota invested hundreds of millions of dollars on this one model alone. I can't imagine the tooling costs. All this and do you think some small company like Krex or the million other snake oils on the pep boys shelves will improve on Toyota's research into their own product?
If you did NOTHING else than exactly what the manual suggests, you will run at least 10 years without a loss in performance. At least.
Just as if your car is rated for 87 octane and you use 91. The mentality is that if 87 is good, 91 is better. Wrong. It does nothing to improve performance unless you have knocking or something associated with a higher octane requirement. 91 isn't "better" for your car, it is a different requirement. That's all. But gas companies make a whole lot of money from people who think it is better.
Oil additives are the same way. What long term testing have they done with Krex? What kind of r&d? Is your engine going to look like sludge in 5 years?
My point is it could help but it could hurt. Most likely, it could do absolutely nothing except relieve you of alot of money.
09-003-01 USING SUPPLEMENTAL OIL ADDITIVE TREATMENTS
Date: 05/04/01
Description: This bulletin reinforces a requirement to cease the current practice of using supplemental oil additive treatments in all DaimlerChrysler engines.
Details: Engine oil additives/supplements (EOS) should not be used to enhance engine oil performance. Engine oil additives/supplements should not be used to extend engine oil change intervals. No additive is known to be safe for engine durability and can degrade emission components.
Additives can contain undesirable materials that harm the long term durability of engines by:
1. Doubling the level of Phosphorus in the engine oil. The ILSAC (International Lubricant Standard Approval Committee) GF-2 and GF-3 standards require that engine oil contain no more than 0.10% Phosphorus to protect the vehicles emissions performance. Addition of engine oil additives/supplements can poison, from the added sulfur and phosphorus, catalysts and hinder efforts to guarantee our emissions performance to 80,000 miles and new requirements of 150,000 miles.
2. Altering the viscosity characteristics of the engine oil so that it no longer meets the requirements of the specified viscosity grade.
3. Creating potential for an undesirable additive compatibility interaction in the engine crankcase. Generally it is not desirable to mix additive packages from different suppliers in the crankcase; there have been reports of low temperature engine failures caused by additive package incompatibility with such mixtures.
Well, maybe not, but it sure feels that way if you're stuck behind one trying to get to a fishing stream.
I don't remember any Toyota fuel tank leak recalls except with the new Sienna. Did I miss this one? (USA Today) Or is this same thing as the pulsation recall?
Steve, Host
Larry
Interesting, there were Russian log cabins still standing in Kenai from when the Russians owned Alaska. The log houses were hewn perfectly square and fit together exactly, there was no earth chinking like American pioneer log houses. There were no windows, only a door.
There was almost no traffic back then. Local people ate moose and caught salmon and smoked it.
I had the same problem and got it fixed a week ago. The vibration is gone, and I notice that both the Downhill assist and hill start assist are working better than before. My only complaint now is that I hear a 'swish' noise when I press the brake pedeal, but the FST says it's normal.
Are you getting the swishing noise now? At any rate, please keep us updated and post your results!
My answer to your question about additives lies somewhere in the middle. First, I would not add anything to engine oils in a hope of increasing engine life. The additive packages currently used are adequate to give your engine a long life if it is well-engineered, well-built, and if you change your oil and filter regularly. Most of the additives fall under the category of snake oil. There are some that may help, but there is no data to support that. The above factors, engineering, assembly, and oil-change frequency induce such a large variability into the equation, it is impossible to sort out whether a long-lived engine is a result of an additive or one of the other factors. Same for a short-lived one. It is impossible (or at least too costly) to build a number of engines that are truly identical to accurately test these additives.
Most additives in cans are simply increased concentrations of those already present in motor oil, such as zinc dithiophosphate or a polymeric VI improver. The biggest change you can make to your engine under the above contraints is to use a high quality filter and use pure synthetic motor oil.
One additive I have found (by personal use) to have an postive affect on an engine is graphite. Apparently a number of engines had trouble with ARCO graphite motor oil (related to crankcase sludge) when it was used a few years ago and it was probably discontinued for this reason. I used this motor oil in a 454 chevy engine with a carburetor. My engine idled 400 rpm faster with this oil in it. Change the oil to any other brand and the idle returned to normal. There may be a different interpretation of this observation, but I am convinced that the ARCO graphite decreased cylinder wall-piston ring and perhaps cam-to-lifter friction to the extent that it had such a remarkable effect on my engine (454 had huge pistons and large cylinder wall contact area). Unfortunately, this effect on idle speed is only measurable with carburetors that have non-computer controlled idle speeds. I guess with current engines, measuring throttle opening or intake manifold vacuum are the only ways to determine if your engine is gaining power at idle by varying oil additives. The increased lubricant properties of this oil were also seen in controlled laboratory experiments. I had never seen any other additive that produced a significant change in lubricating ability other than the graphite in ARCO graphite.
ARCO graphite was unique in that it contained 1% colloidal graphite (alot) and that may be the reason for the effect. It had such a high load of graphite it was opaque. None of the graphite additives I have seen recently (including the Krex additive) have had sufficient graphite to even be visible. I doubt they have more than a trace of graphite.
In summary, use of these additives borders on faith and belief with no real supporting data. Even in a laboratory, none of the additives I have tested (other than the 1% graphite in ARCO graphite motor oil) showed the ability to improve motor oil.
Regarding the rear spoiler, I'll mention that a couple of nights ago I drove the 40 miles to home (from work) during a heavy rain, traveling at mostly highway speeds. When I briefly watched my rearview mirror, I noticed that my rear glass remained remarkably clear even without the intermittent rear wiper. But even more interesting was how a streak of water would periodically SHOOT down over the rear glass, and visually this looked a bit like a shooting star, if you will. I postulate that what's probably happening here is that as the large amount of rain water is being swept backward over the top of the truck, it briefly pools-up at the rear of the roof (due to weak electrostatic forces?) before the pools become large enough to spill onto the top of the rear glass. And when this happens, these large water blobs are forcefully blown downward by the strong downward-directed air stream created by the spoiler, and this is what creates the "shooting star" appearance of the rain water. If this description isn't clear enough, then think back to how water behaves when you go through a car wash and the accumulated water gets blown (or sucked) over the vehicle's glass as you enter the forced-air drying phase of the car wash... In summary, I continue to find that this rear air spoiler actually works very effectively to keep the rear glass clear during heavy rain at highway speeds, and therefore the spoiler is not just nonfunctional gingerbread.
Regarding the discussion I started concerning lubricant additives, I chose to present my (admittedly) scant web-based findings without introducing much of my own "editorializing" on the subject. The Baum $ Olsen quote I included tends to speak for itself, huh? At any rate, thanks to all who offered their insightful opinions and expertise regarding this issue. As for myself, I'm very skeptical about such lubricant additives, and this is why I started the discussion in the first place. In fact, I'm even a bit leery of synthetic oils, because while these expensive products are claimed to offer much longer oil change intervals, there is still the issue of whether synthetic oils can adequately BUFFER accumulating ACIDS for such long oil-change intervals, as well as to safely handle accumulating water over the same intervals.
Now, as far as fuel system/injector cleaners are concerned, I still swear by Chevron Techron (based on my experience with past vehicles), and unless you can give me a really good reason to not use Techron in a tank of fuel at every oil change interval, I will continue this practice! Any comments?
I like synthetic oils. There is alot of research and real-world results from using it. Not only in cars but extreme uses such as aircraft and heavy machinery. I like the longer intervals since I don't like to spend weekends on anything that takes away from eating chips and scratching my butt.
Plus it's proven to not sludge up in extreme conditions (towing for example) or break down as fast as regular oil.
There is a big debate about it but here is my rule of thumb:
1. Too many rules makes your thumb very hard to read
2. If you like to change the oil on a regular basis- ie; really into maintainence- than regular oil is the ticket. Good and saves money.
3. If you like to scratch your butt on weekends than synthetics that cost more but go twice as long - are the ticket.
Rogers12, I don't believe the expense of synthetic is justified for regular motor vehicle use and the driving that most of us do. Not even when I lived in the far north (110 miles north of Kenai <g> - Pat, you beat me up there by 6 years!).
I stretch my dino oil/filter changes out to 7,500 miles and beyond. I haven't had time to follow the oil boards for a year or so, but I never saw a petroleum engineer or prof weigh in with any comments sufficient to sway me towards synthetic.
Steve, Host
Background information:
All motor oils are mixtures of a base oil, VI improver (Viscosity Index or rate of change of viscosity with temperature), and an additive package and possibly other additives. The base oil is a 0W, 5W, 10W, etc. single viscosity oil, whether it be Dino oil or synthetic. This is the first number in a multi-vis oil like 5W-30. The multi-vis rating is obtained by adding the VI improver which is commonly a methacrylate polymer that decreases the rate at which the oil thins as it becomes hotter. As the polymer heats up, the chains tangle less with themselves and tangle more with each other, increasing their apparent molecular weight (thus viscosity). This counteracts the thinning of oil as it gets hotter, increasing the apparent viscosity at higher temperatures compared with the base oil without the VI improver.
The additive package in an oil is a validated mixture of chemicals that imparts the majority of the lubrication, dispersant, anti corrosion, and anti oxidation qualities to the base oil. There are a number of acceptable additive packages available and the oil company is free to choose any of them for their motor oil and then they don't have to independently prove their oil meets SJ or other standards.
It is easy for any oil to lubricate bearings under no load conditions. The important work that lubricating oils (and whose properties are imparted exclusively by the additive packages) do is prevent metal-to-metal contact when the loads are high (such as in rubbing surfaces like cams/lifters or on cylinder walls when the normal oil layer has been removed (cold cranking).
Zinc dithiophosphate is a typical additive (included in the additive packages) for dry lubrication of metal surfaces. It binds to the metal surface and absorbes the load instead of allowing metal-to-metal contact.
Antioxicants are another additives that protect the oil from oxidation until they are used up. Then the oil begins to oxidize and becomes thicker and its lubricating properties start to go down the drain quickly. This and water contamination are the main sludge producers.
Another killer of engines is corrosion due to acids and water created by combustion. The water must be removed by heating the oil during long drives. Corrosion by acids is, for the most part, prevented by additives that neutralize the acid. I have described these because the majority of the properties of oils are induced by the additive packages and very little by the quality of the base oil.
The advantages of synthetic oils are in their lesser volatility (of the base oil) and much less tendency to oxidize, owing to the lower levels of aromatics and other impurities (in the base oil).
The few disadvantages of synthetic oils results from the same qualities. Synthetic oils are so pure that they must be adulterated to allow the additive package to dissolve in them. Pure synthetic base oils are very poor solvents for additive packages, whereas Dino base oils are good to excellent solvents depending on their source in the world. Used to be the Pennsylvania crude oils were the best in this regard.
Cutting to the chase - Dino oils are adequate when cars are driven often to distances that allow the engine to heat up and run at operating temperature for at least a short time before they are allowed to cool down. This evaporates the water and, to a lesser extent, unburned fuel from the oil. Changing the oil frequently will prevent using up of the preservative oil additives and everything will be fine. Older engines (more blow-by) and hotter-running engines (higher rate of oxidation) will be more prone to killing oil and need more frequent oil changes.
Synthetic oils have the following advantages.
As stated above, synthetic oils are very non-polar and thus get rid of water contamination faster and at lower temperatures since water is very polar and water and synthetic oil do not like each other as much as water and Dino oil do. They therefore have an advantage for cars that are not driven long enough to heat up the engine with regularity. No oil will protect an engine that is never run up to operating temperature.
Synthetic oils are very resistant to oxidation for much longer periods of time than dino oil. They therefore do not thicken from oxidation. Other additives will probably be used up before the base oil begins to oxidize. Synthetic oils need to be changed to maintain the oil filter quality and to keep the additive package from being used up. Dino oils oxidize and thus need to be changed for that reason, if not for reasons of contamination.
As far as easier starting in cold weather goes, fresh 5W-30 synthetic oil flows exactly the same as fresh 5W-30 Dino oil. The change comes about after use. Synthetic oil only thickens after extreme age. Dino oil thickens slightly immediately (due to evaporation of the low-boiling oil components) and then thickens slowly from then on due to slow oxidation.
Steve - sorry if this is too off-topic, but I didn't see your post until after I wrote this.
I would describe the ride of my 2003 4Runner V8 LTD as truck-like. I've put just about 5000 miles on it. It's ride is better than most other trucks I've driven, but it is still a truck and not a car. You're not going to mistake it for a sports sedan or sports wagon (e.g., A4 wagon).
Terrafirma, the reason that I suggest that someone compare it to an A4 wagon or Passat wagon is that the price is similar and for many people an A4 or Passat or BMW wagon might be a better choice. For me, an A4 wagon is not a better choice because it won't get take me out on the beach road at Cape Pogue to go fishing. Or rather, it would get me about 15 feet onto the beach road before getting stuck up to its axles in sand...
But for shopping at the mall on a snowy day, some people might be better served by a wagon. I want the off-road capability of the 4Runner, so I'm willing to accept the tradeoffs (rougher ride, poorer handling, etc.). For someone who doesn't need the off-road capability, they might want to consider a car, minivan, or car-based SUV instead.
Steve, Host
Larry
The answer below seems to imply that the existence of factory grill guards means that grill guards are safe. I have seen a number of posts about the factory grill guards being extremely weak (4Runner, for example, breaking off when someone nudged a garage wall). I do not think that it is safe to assume that if a factory option exists, then aftermarket alternatives have the same design priorities.
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Q: Do you have any information on how grille guards affect deployment of air bags?
A: There is no conclusive or comprehensive data at this time regarding air bags deployment and opinions vary to say the least. Some vehicle manufacturers, most notably Ford, Nissan and GM offer a factory grille guard for some of their trucks, so you may be able to draw your own conclusions from that. We consider our guard a medium-strength guard, suitable for pushing a vehicle, but one that will crush in an accident.
---------------
Well, waiting for the black 4Runner how we want it equipped seems to be a ways off. The dealer brought in the Dorado Gold, which we actually ended up liking, so it looks like we may have a new truck tomorrow. I'm buying it at invoice, plus a $300 dealer fee.
When I checked the dealer's invoice, I noticed a few strange things, and just wanted to get your opinions. Unfortunately, Toyoguard was installed at port, and they're saying the invoice for that is $481. I was under the assumption that the invoice for this was around $225. Anyone know for sure?
Also, there's a $575 "Southeast Toyota Administrative fee" which I assume equates to the destination charge. So that I can live with. Then, there's another $575 charge listed as "Delivery, processing, and handling". What do you think about this? Worth arguing about? I have a feeling if we want the truck, they are going to go off their invoice, not the Edmunds' invoice.
For what it's worth, there are 2 columns on the dealer invoice - invoice and MSRP. The "SE Toyota Admin Fee" of $575 is added into the invoice column, but not the MSRP column, and the $575 Delivery and Processing fee is added to both the invoice and MSRP columns. Also, from KBB, I pulled this: "Southeast Toyota Administration Charge
(Req'd in Alabama, Florida, Georgia, North Carolina & South Carolina) (Cost Will Be Automatically Included in Dealer Invoice Model Price) - No Charge" Is the dealer adding in some charges here?
One last thing - the truck came with Bridgestone Duelers. Would you suggest pushing for some Goodyears or Michellans?
Thanks all!
Aaron - maybe soon to be owner of 2004 Dorado Gold Limited V8 4x2 with X-REAS, JBL, side curtain airbags and sunroof.