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I subscribe to car magazine and take their comparisons very lightly. Most of their emphasis is on performance and subjective evaluation. In recent Car & Drive Comparison of 2010 Accord EX vs 2011 Sonata vs 2010 Legacy they wrothe that EX doesnt even come with sunroof. EX Accord has always come with sunroof since it was introduced in US.
CR uses more relevant factors to rate cars from, relaibility to safety ( NHTSA plus IIHS) to road performance and value for the money. It's hard to get the auto mags to ever dwell on on matters that DO MATTER to average consumers like us. They all err by using MSRP when actual average market price should be used.
I agree with you that CR reviews are good and I subscribe to their magazine but nobody has proven that other car magazines slant their reviews because of how much a certain manufacturer may advertise. People say it but nobody offers proof. Just by saying it's true doesn't make it true. Motor Trend has had many of it's COTY vehicles turn out to be somewhat duds in retrospect. So have many cars lauded by other car magazines. Until just recently, CR has lauded Toyotas of any kind. I can point to mistakes that CR has made in their articles as well so nobody is perfect.
I just think it's terribly wrong to accuse any magazine of basically taking bribes when one offers no proof other than they made some mistakes in their articles.
i wish the malibu had auto shift on the shifter and not paddle shifters
i wish the fusion had a center console that faced somewhat upward and not dead perpendicular to the floor
i wish the accord had a 6 speed auto tranny (maybe it does?) and sport shift auto and less buttons on the center dash...
i wonder if the buick regal is nice.
I wish Chevy would take a note from Ford and start making us some decent vehicles instead of wasting our billions in bailout money on a $40K electric economy car with a few bells and whistles based off the Chevy Cruz, a car comparable to a Ford Focus or Hyundai Elantra.
I wish the Sonata SE was available with full leather and upgraded stereo without the overpriced moonroof/nav package.
Also Toyota will recall 138,000 Lexus to fix faulty engines.
Meanwhile Hyundai has only been recalled for the minor door lock issue.
Just maybe Hyundai is a safe car to drive and several others are building death traps.
Something seems strange to me.
Thats very possible. In fact that's what my serv mgr hinted at.
I can understand the fear mommyt experienced at the time so I support her actions of not wanting to drive another Hyundai. However as she stated she loved the car and I wish she would have given it another chance because to date more than 95% of owners ar extremely happy with the car and it is one of Americas fastest and most popular selling cars.
I'm wondering if this possibly could have been related to the steering column wiring TSB.
If not, it is hard to understand what was the issue with the other cars.
It also may be possible that those cars had something in common with hers (build dates, open TSB etc..). That may be why they were "flagged" out of an abundance of caution until the final cause of the defect was diagnosed.
A small point, but I don't think that Car and Driver wrote that the EX doesn't come with a sunroof. I agree that it is easy to make this [false] inference, but it is not what they wrote. Quoting from the Car and Driver article:
"But that [Sonata] as-tested price includes a $2600 option package—navigation, power tilt/slide sunroof, and premium audio. A similarly equipped Accord would cost $29,540."
Something seems strange to me.
I received recall notices from my dealer on my 2007 Camry. Actually it was a dealer where I had gotten some oil changes done but not the dealer I originally purchased the car from. I don't believe I ever got any actual notices directly from Toyota.
On my 2005 Acura the recall notice I got did come from the manufacturer.
I have received mailings before that looked like recall notices, but were actually come-ons from dealers. If you read them closely they will not say that there is a recalled defect that they are going to correct, but that there is an inspection required of the vehicle. Which will almost always find some maintenance or repair item that needs to be taken care of. Outside of warranty, of course.
First, note that the steering wheel is not making large movements. What you are seeing with the back and forth movement is the position sensor, torque sensor, and servo motor trying to go "neutral", meaning the match of input torque to steering load. When you turn the wheel, these sensors note the direction of movement and the torque being applied to cause movement. Information is sent to the controller, which then determines the amount and direction of input to the servo motor to perform the assist. When the vehicle is stopped, and you tun the wheel, you cannot get all the torque load out of the steering because of the friction coefficient of the tires on the pavement. How many of you were ever taught not to turn the steering wheel back and forth when the car was not moving? Doing so applies a large amount of stress on the steering components and can even make a conventional hydraulic power assist squeal it's belt.
So this is the first thing I notice, that the wheel is trying to "find" that position where the load on the steering is torque neutral, but cannot. Is this a defect? Yes, but most likely a sensor that is just out of spec and combined with the non-moving load on the steering, is "dithering".
The second thing I note is that when the car was turned off, then restarted, the wheel did not move. It is perfectly stationary until the operator makes several turning motions on the wheel, here again trying to turn the wheel with the car not moving and putting a torque load on the system. Once that has been done, the system again tries to turn the wheel and neutralize the torque load. Also note that these are very small movements. Without the vehicle in front of me and properly instrumented (which I would bet money has now been done at Hyundai) I can only postulate that what would be seen is the controller sending a signal to the EPS tellng it to move to neutral torque, and then releasing the motor when either the sensor tells the controller it is in correct position, or a pre-determined torque limit has been reached. Such a condition in positional servo motors looks just like what you see in the video.
Closed loop positioning systems using servo motors have been used for decades in industrial applications. As an example, if a computer (in this case, driver) sends a signal to a milling machine (or car) telling it to move to a set x-y coordinate, the stepping (or servo) motors will turn until that coordinate is approached, as indicated by a positional sensor. The amount of force applied by the stepping (servo) motor is pre-set by the controller monitoring a torque sensor so as to not damage the motor nor that which it is moving.
In a vehicle using EPS, this torque load is changed by the driver. When you first start to turn the wheel, a large amount of torque is input to the steering wheel. As the vehicle approaches the position you are wanting, you ease up on the steering wheel and lower the input torque. You also let the wheel come back to it's "zero" or straight ahead position. The torque sensor note this decrease, sends input to the controller, which then lowers the signal to the servo motor. All performed in micro-seconds!
Something which must be noted here is this; While the sudden movement of the steering column by the servo motor would certainly be a surprise, the size of the motor used in vehicle applications is very small and does not provide very much torque and could be easily overcome by driver input. A motor of sufficient size to have the speed to respond quickly to driver input and have the torque capacity to overcome the driver would be much larger than what could be housed in the EPS unit.
In my opinion, what has happened here is a loss of synchonization between the sensors and the controller causing a dither affect. The initial description of the incident while driving could most certainly have been cause by a roadbed anomaly such as smooth ruts where stresses were placed on the wheels of the car, causing a torque load to appear in the steering, and the resultant movement of the steering wheel by the column mounted motor. The issue would be further aggrevated by the attempt to turn the wheel with the car not moving.
I believe that such a condition, while certainly warranting investigation, would not provide as serious a hazard as one would have if breaking a power steering belt while steering through a curve.
Like I said, my opinion, based on decades of work in electronics, mechanics, and industrial control systems.
What other cars? No one has confirmed that there were other cars with the same problem. Also I have not heard of any TSB for Sonata except the door lock problem.
While there is no "proof", I suspect that there is at least an element of truth to the story that someone checked other vehicles. I'm not suggesting that there was an actual issue, but speculating that PERHAPS there MAY have been some relationship to the Steering Column TSB. IF that was the case, it might explain someone "Flagging" other cars to inspect them to see if there were any common elements.
My take on this incident is that it was isolated.
"In our [Sonata] test car, this was 3340 pounds—only 20 pounds less than the Accord, but features such as a power sunroof, absent in the Honda, swelled the total."
I missed this error, because the current online version (at the CD website) of this same comparison test has been corrected. Quoting from the same article at the CD website:
"In our [Sonata] test car, this was 3340 pounds—only 20 pounds less than the Accord, but the Sonata also had the most features, which swelled the total."
Sorry. My mistake.
Other than that, it is a typical engineering geek diatribe.
Sonata Steering Scares Owner
What steering colum TSB. I said the only known TSB on the Sonata is the door lock issue for cars made before March. Where did you see a TSB for the steering colum.
IIRC the posing was at
http://myhyundaiforums.com/showthread.php?t=510
Again I am not suggesting that this is definitive in any way. I was just wondering if a wiring issue inside the steering column might be a common factor.
The recall you got is for Sonatas manufactured between 12-11-09 and 3-2.2010.
You can check the date of manufacture on a plate on the car body when you open
the front drivers door.
Why? We never said she didn't have a problem. We said that there has been no proof that 5 other cars at the same Dealer had the same problem. And we said we didn't agree with her that the 2011 Sonata is a death trap. And we suggested her problem was a random defect not a recall issue. And the car she was driving was not on the list for ignition harness wiring which wouldn't have caused her problem anyway.
Do you agree with her that her issue is a major safety problem and all Sonata owners should be driving with fear that their power steering will fail and put their lives in danger? If you do then you can apologize to her. I feel safe with my purchase and the power steering to date is a non issue.
I wouldn't be that bothered if I was in park or in a parking lot applying torque to the wheels and it did something like this. Obviously I'd get it fixed but I wouldn't be shouting from the rooftops. However, if it did this jumping around out of the blue while just driving down the road I'd be very concerned. I can see where somebody a little more emotional or risk averse would be absolutely scared out of their wits.
So I read up a bit on EPS and didnt see anything that could produce such a situation. Again though I'm no expert.
Dear..............
Hyundai vehicles are now recognized as being amongst the highest quality in the industry.
This is driven by listening to our customers.
Hyundai engineers would like to obtain feedback from you regarding your Hyundai Sonata.
Below, you'll find a link to a quick survey that should take no longer than ten minutes to complete.
Follow this link to take the survey
http://www.hyundaifeedback.com/HyundaiSurvey/GenSurvey.aspx?guid=JyOmRM%2f%2fENw- %3d
Thank you for taking this survey. Your input will help Hyundai design and build better vehicles.
We appreciate your participation.
Hyundai Motor America
I suspect that that survey is specifically for Hyundai owners and by posting the link here you've opened it up to anyone.
I further suspect that this will corrupt their survey.
Just an observation.
.
Like I told the dealer, we'll see as there are more complaints! So, if anyone else has a 2011 Sonata with noticible drift/pull PLEASE have it serviced because there is an identified issue by a Hyundai factory engineer whom serviced my vehicle, which isn't being addressed. They couldn't figure out what was causining it to do it; so, the Hyundai factory engineer simply chalked it up to "the nature of the beast." How wrong is that?
Oh, by the way, I live in Maryland and the Lemon Law here stipulates that the vehicle must be in for service more than four times for the same problem or out of service for maore than 30 days. So far, I have had it in twice. I plan to take it to another dealership for a second opinion or diagnosis.
on the Hyundai forums also i've posted other complaints,here's another that looks important.
Now, if right out of the box there is a pull either way, alignment, front and rear, plus tires, all should be looked at. Figure tens of thousands of these are being made, so they are not all going to be exact. That's why the the alignment is adjustable!
Why? Do you think people would go on there and deliberately lie to make the Sonata appear better?
van
I am certain that some folks, who do not have a Sonata, will do exactly the opposite, just as they do any thing that they do not like or are jealous over.
Just as they would do if this was a Toyota survey, or a Nissan survey, etc.
Just as they do now on some review sites where they give a poor review to a car that they do not own and haven't driven.
I suggest you wait to receive the email if you do own a new Hyundai vehicle.
Sorry if I misled you to think anyone can fill in the survey.
An EX Accord 4 cyl. with A/T MSRP is about 25.5k and I was offered one for sale @ 21k plus TTL. So much so for accuracies!
Frankly, there too many good choices in the mid-size car market and best part is its buyers market except for 2011 Sonata!
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CR has taken Toyota products off the recommended list based on unintended acceleration due to the severity of the problem but its rate of incidence is 3 per 10,000 vehicle, whereas unreliable vehicles have defect rate of 13 per 100. The fact that they have taken Toyota products off their list shows that they are unbiased. Will you see Toyota products not compared MT or CD? I doubt it!
Yes, it would be impossible to make a case that adv. dollar influenced the COTY awards but it has a huge financial gain for car manufacturer and very obvious conflict of interest. All I am saying is taking these comparisons with grain of salt!
I'll take them with a grain of salt because they are someone's(a reviewer) opinion in a lot of respects. What I won't do is say they are on the take unless I can prove it. CR has taken many Toyotas off their recommended list along with hundreds of other cars that are not on their recommended list. Will they stop reviewing Toyotas? No, and neither will other magazines. I don't recall anyone on here saying that CR is biased. But can they make mistakes? Sure all of them do.
Like I said, you're preaching to the choir as I subscribe too and like CR for their reviews. But I also read a lot of other reviews when I'm interested in a car and I don't consider them biased or on the take even if I don't agree with them. It's just their opinion, good or bad.
If someone truly believes that a particular magazine is biased or being bribed in some way they should ust stop reading those magazines and they will go out of business. I don't think the people that subscribe to those mags are stupid, and on average, know more about cars than the average person and would be in the best position to discover fraud or something like that.
MOST car publications are biased... but they usually admit it. For example, C/D admits they are biased towards cars with crisp handling. CR is admittedly biased towards cars with excellent safety features and reliability. In fact, they won't even recommend a car that doesn't have a proven track record for reliability. Other mags don't even consider safety and reliability, but look only at how the car performs and looks, and whether the editors feel they "gotta have it." :P So it's difficult if not impossible to find car reviews that are not biased in some way. The key thing is to know what the editorial bias is when reading the review.
Every time someone brings this up I ask them where does CR get the money to do all that they do? Their subscription revenue simply can't pay for everything.
Anyway as for me if CR said the sky was blue I would look and check. They lost my confidence for good 20 some years ago.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D