Afraid Camry Owner - Toyota found to keep tight lid on potential safety

2jzgtesupragrl · January 2010

I think that we all need to keep something in mind here . Toyota has been such a leader and perfectionist in quality, dependability and reliability for so long, that when any desrepancy arises in any of those categories, everyone likes to shoot rubber bands at them. What about when the Dodge Durango's steering wheel had to fall off the column and roll down the highway before they would recall it ? This is a PRECAUTIONARY method set in good faith, by Toyota. They want to stand behind what they ALWAYS Have ! If they truly thought it was more than an accelarator pedal edge becoming lodged in a floormat, it would have been made public LONG AGO!!!! Have some faith.people.

bmw323 · January 2010

Looking for advice on how to handle a RAV4 purchase I made 2 weeks ago. My wife won't drive the car as soon as she heard Toyota has stopped production. Does dealer or Toyota have an obligation to current owners. I'm calling dealer tomorrow and asking for either a full refund (doubtful) or a rental car fully paid until recall actually occurs.

gooddeal2 · January 2010

I'm calling dealer tomorrow and asking for either a full refund (doubtful) or a rental car fully paid until recall actually occurs.

NO and NO.

I highly doubt they will do that...imagine finding and paying for 2.3 millions rental cars.

revit · January 2010

"The statement today speaks for itself. "

Ah...yes, I have to agree with you. Never did I think there would come a day when Toyota would have to stop selling their best selling car. I, along with others, thank such publications such as Autoblog.com and the LATs for covering this issue and pushing this story into the main media.

Toyota first denied it, then said there might be a problem, then issued a recall, and now has stopped selling the Camry.

As you said, "The statement today speaks for itself."

2jzgtesupragrl · January 2010

This is all just a Political Witch Hunt

imidazol97 · January 2010

I have been reading some posts in a large toyota group forum. A few people there implicate the cruise control in their specific incidents. Another says his Tacoma just accelerated at a stoplight with his foot on the brake rear-ending the car in front of him. He feels it's some in the computer controls that's causing a glitch.

There may be some more to the story here with certain models. Although the accelerator device ( made by CTS they say ) may be at fault.

ponderpoint · January 2010

"I think that we all need to keep something in mind here . Toyota has been such a leader and perfectionist in quality, dependability and reliability for so long, that when any discrepancy arises in any of those categories, everyone likes to shoot rubber bands at them."

Good point. I seem to remember a car getting hit from behind and basically blowing up in flames but somehow I guess that's different now.... I can't exactly remember the name..... Something horse related... Yep, small horse or Pony or something...... Different consumers back then, not very astute, organizationally skilled and um..... Litigious?

Probably one of my last posts on this subject, I'm tired of making sure I spell "accelerator" right all the time......

210delray · January 2010

Just because some people "implicate" or "feel" that they know what the problem is, doesn't make it so.

Earlier you said, "I think it's reprehensible that there have been known problems since 2008 with this at least this one factor being admitted only now"

Ok, suppose you were the chairman and CEO of Imidazol Motors. Every day, you hear of complaints involving your vehicles, from dealers, through NHTSA, or on web forums like these. How do you separate the wheat from the chaff? Seems like a lot of time would have to be expended to find out where the real problems are.

210delray · January 2010

And don't forget the much more recent flap over some of their SUVs and a certain tiremaker. But now, they're feted as the only "honorable" American auto company because they didn't take bailout money!

gtgtcobra · January 2010

I wonder how long it will be before Toyota restarts production on the Camry and on all the other vehicles that they stopped production on?

ponderpoint · January 2010

"A few people there implicate the cruise control in their specific incidents"

Nothing new - I have an Acura TL that doesn't like its cruise control shut off by clutch pedal, the engine goes crazy with high rpm. According to the owners manual, depressing the clutch is suppose to cancel it.... It doesn't. If I want to cancel the set speed, I have to depress the brake pedal firmly or shut it off with the master switch on the steering wheel.

Is the cruise control a "smoking gun" in the Toyota incidents? This is the first time I've heard it mentioned......

BTW, the cruise control in the Acura is without any doubt, the worst cruise control I've ever had in any car. It's jumpy, erratic and can't make up its mind going down a slight grade on the interstate but I guess that's another forum......

2jzgtesupragrl · January 2010

Um.....Duh...I somehow don't remember now, Um, My memory doesn't serve me correct.... C'mon, now, Please try to play copacetic... Thanks anyway.
Wanna talk about Ponies ? How about the "Pony" cruise control switch fires that included at least 10 fatalities? THOSE included garage and house fires..... How about the Tire recall that was linked to at least 46 fatalities.
What? Tally Ho ! to all the NHTSA GM truck Chevy 1500 series with "premature wear in clutch master cylinders push rod ends that attaches to clutch pedal pins" that gave way and atttibuted to over 40 fatalities.
And what about " 18 fires in Chrysler Grand Cherokees 1993-1998 near the steering column after consumers clasimed the vehicles were NOT in park despite ther gearshift being in "park". ?? 76,000 vehicles recalled CAUSING the fuel valve to DETATCH from tank upon REAR impact and asllowing fuel to LEAK OUT UPON IMPACT!!???? DO we forget those INSTANCES ????

elias · January 2010

millwood-zero,
my comprehension level is not a subject for this forum, but you can request a new "elias comprehension" forum if you think it would vehicularly interesting.

For quite a while I've been yammering about these killer Toyotas and how they apparently resulted from the worst engineering failure in automotive history, and the drivers were not at fault.

Today it appears that Toyota agrees with me, since they've taken what is perhaps an unprecedented step in recent history (?): halting many production lines due to problem(s) that have been at least partially known for almost a year (?) , and which have yet to be resolved!

By some measures the problem(s) seem to be getting *worse* - multiplying?
It's as if murphy's law has struck with a vengeance not seen before. What can go wrong *next* to expose/trigger the fatal toyota flaws? It just keeps getting worse.

dodgeman07 · January 2010

My guesstimate is mid-February. They will have a solution much sooner, but getting it implemented will take 2 weeks minimum.

One month would be a killer, but it could go that long...........

elias · January 2010

supragirl, you are new to edmunds and make the same fangirl post in multiple forums on your first day? You say the toyota recall is merelyprecautionary?
But many toyota customers are dead due to what appear to be the biggest engineering/process flaws in automotive history.

You advise us to have "faith"? How can faith possibly be relevant to any aspect of this discussion except for us to hope that the dead Toyota customers had eternal-faith before their cars killed them?
The issue/problem here appears to be engineering and marketing. Engineers will fix the problem. Marketeers will explain how the cars are safe now. Service departments will fix existing cars. Customers will buy more.

Until Toyota at least *claims* to have the problem(s) fixed and fixes YOUR Toyota, I recommend that you PARK your Toyota and rent a GM.

2jzgtesupragrl · January 2010

"one month would be a killer".....???? Such a neurotic statement could ONLY come from someone with the screen name "Dodgeman". No underlying hyprocrisis, right ??? JUST making sure...... Get real people !!!! FLY AWAY CARS!!!!! Do you people have any idea how REDECULIOUS this is !!!! It is a clear manipulation of the media and other RIVALRY car comnpanies to circumvent potential sales.....ALL you WELL educated tax paying citizens have to do is to google "unintended gas pedal accelerators" and you will see a SLEW OF MANUFACTURERES pull up !!!!! Yes, the most recent, Toyota because of the MEDIA Publicity, but there are RECOUNTS of BMW< Pontiac, Honda, Dodge, and EVERY other you can think of !!! It;s just that Toyota is in the Spotlight because of their PERFECTION!!! It's like the time the squeaky clean Mom and Pop general store who has been in business 50 yrs has a few sightings of a rat, and it's all over.....C'mon..people....

2jzgtesupragrl · January 2010

Eluas, I am NOT NEW to Edmunds, but have been watching from afar, as many wise people do before unleashing. Look at my SIGN on date, E. First day ? Stop merely processing information and re typing it " Biggest engineering prob in histiory" ANyone can do that, E!! Tell us something that you really feel. We have a newspaper for the type of info you are relaying.
Let's face it, people. MANY things have happened in recent history that we dont know the answer to....many things we are MAD about...WAR, Murders, Cars. People die, planes crash, let's not be so FAST to point the finger at Toyota when SO MANY OF THE SAME ACCOUNTS and stories have been told, but not PUBLICIZED about car manufacturers. :Lets be fair, to the deceased, to the living, and the rest of us......

2jzgtesupragrl · January 2010

PS- Not for nothing, but MY Toyota is a 1994 Twin Turbo Supra. NOT involved in this recall, BUT DEFINETLY well looked after , Thank you for your Concern, ELIAS! I know you were probably also worried about that rusty frame issue.....Dont let this keeep u up at night. My baby is tuckedf away, warm, cozy, temp controlled, and in a custom made, tight fit car cover. Don't worry for me, I've never had to had a many tranny's replaced, like GM id, with my friends cars, let's not skirt the issue

2jzgtesupragrl · January 2010

well, then, U, Maximafanm probably have more sense than most! Cannot Believe thse Amer Mnauf can look like this !!! Awf!!

dodgeman07 · January 2010

"one month would be a killer".....???? Such a neurotic statement could ONLY come from someone with the screen name "Dodgeman".
---------------------------------------

ONLY from you honey..........not me. I've been a member here for many years and am a former quality engineer for GM. I've also worked as a supplier to Toyota and am well aware of their numerous quality problems that they have "rejected" because "we're Toyota".

One month with none of these models sold will be a killer to many Toyota customers, dealers, suppliers and employees. Toyota's goal was to be the biggest light vehicle manufacturer in the world. Not the best. They screwed up and it will cost them tens of billions of dollars and leave thousands of customers looking elsewhere.

They couldn't be the biggest or the best. Case closed.

P.S. Spell check is free. Use it.

lanzillotta · January 2010

Good point. I seem to remember a car getting hit from behind and basically blowing up in flames but somehow I guess that's different now.... I can't exactly remember the name
*************
The Ford Pinto :lemon:

kdhspyder · January 2010

Depending on how long it takes CTS and Toyota to redesign that part, it'll take that long. In the meanwhile - speculation follows - I can see Camry, Corolla, RAV and Highlanders being imported in far greater numbers temporarily.

Big business is nothing if not constantly challenging,

uplanderguy · January 2010

Good point. I seem to remember a car getting hit from behind and basically blowing up in flames but somehow I guess that's different now.... I can't exactly remember the name

Pssst...that was over thirty years ago...same thing as somebody saying they wouldn't have bought a 1960 Ford because they had a bad Model T.

I don't think anybody was proud of the Pinto incident. But when it's Toyota, there sure are a lot of excuses and 'I know I am, but what are you?!' going on. This is very serious stuff happening at Toyota now. It helps to be able to admit it.

Bill

kdhspyder · January 2010

This is your hope based on your own speculation. But it remains to be seen.

In the end it will come down to personal experiences. I've said over and over, we are self-centered at our core.
Some will never own a Toyota because like you they worked for a competitor and don't like Toyota.
Some will be afraid personally and will park their vehicles.
Some will look at their own experiences and continue on driving their vehicles daily.

All are perfectly valid responses. To me it depends on the prior perceptions of these owners. If the owners are long time users like myself since 1989 without any issues of any kind then I think that it's very likely that these owners will be understanding and wait for the solution. Then go on about with their daily lives as before.

revit · January 2010

Speculation??????????

Think you need to watch the morning news...Toyota suspends U.S. sales of 8 models in recall

What I find shocking is:

"This action is necessary until a remedy is finalized," said Bob Carter, Toyota's group vice president and general manager.

revit · January 2010

But when it's Toyota, there sure are a lot of excuses and 'I know I am, but what are you?!' going on. This is very serious stuff happening at Toyota now. It helps to be able to admit it.

Bill

Agree, unfortunately many on here prefer taking the denial route even when Toyota stops selling several of their models including the Camry, they seem to think this is all speculation...very unfortunate. :confuse:

imidazol97 · January 2010

> Wanna talk about Ponies ? How about the "Pony" cruise control switch fires that included at least 10 fatalities? THOSE included garage and house fires..... How about the Tire recall that was linked to at least 46 fatalities.
What? Tally Ho ! to all the NHTSA GM truck Chevy 1500 series with "premature wear in clutch master cylinders push rod ends that attaches to clutch pedal pins" that gave way and atttibuted to over 40 fatalities.
And what about " 18 fires in Chrysler Grand Cherokees 1993-1998 near the steering column after consumers clasimed the vehicles were NOT in park despite ther gearshift being in "park". ?? 76,000 vehicles recalled CAUSING the fuel valve to DETATCH from tank upon REAR impact and asllowing fuel to LEAK OUT UPON IMPACT!!???? DO we forget those INSTANCES ????

You left out toyota sludge. How's the supra engine?

I thought this is the Toyota forum. There's a whole lot of talking about other makes and brands. We need to talk about Toyota. Apparently they didn't learn much from mistakes of the other companies through the years. IN many cases those companies tried to stonewall the reality as occurances started being reported.

Toyota should have learned from that and started saying, "We are investigating to be sure there are no greater problems than the mats in a few of the cars supposedly being caught under the pedal." They should have had those engineers someone suggested were actually working on the etymology of the problem in 2008--someone said there were engineers working and not just the PR people putting out press releases.

Toyota instead was clearing computers in the cars and sending people out the door. I still believe there is more to the causes, plural, of these problems than the mats and the accelerator potentiometer end of the drive-by-wire. The ability to shift into neutral may be a problem if it's also computer controlled. I invite wwest to fill us in on that. The actual computer controls the cruise control just like it's an accelerator pedal request instead of the usual separate actuator motor that controls the throttle on the engine to effect the cruise control operation.

Note the ABC report had the toyota dealer replacing Mr. Haggerty's throttle body unit as well as the accelerator interior portion. They didn't mention replacing the computer or reflashing the computer. However, I would have wanted that done if it were my car involved. But I also would wonder, based on my readings around the internet, about a problem in the computer programming.

DON'T MOVE ON. THERE'S MORE TO SEE.

Karen_S · January 2010

New discussion!

Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

ponderpoint · January 2010

"You left out toyota sludge. How's the supra engine?"

I don't think the "sludge" problem can be wholly blamed on Toyota. As I recall there was a little "moron consumer factor" involved with it also. At least the sludge problem didn't have the propensity to kill people.

elias · January 2010

supra is a fantastic car, irl, and designed/built long before the current Toyota fiasco. Obviously it's a keeper and not at risk like the current killer-toyotas.

None of your other comments are worthy of response or consideration.

nwng · January 2010

where is consumer report?

on a side note, the I6 in the supra is probably one of the best engine toyota has ever built. If I have throw away money, I will be looking for a used IS300 with a stick

ponderpoint · January 2010

Has anyone covered this info in prior posts about the CHP officer with the crash in San Diego? It's information that is involved with that deadly Lexus loaner and the officer.

"The sheriff's report contained information released for the first time that a man who had driven the loaner car three days before the crash told a dealership receptionist that the gas pedal had become trapped while he was driving."

Then more information as the article goes on;

"The man who drove the vehicle three days prior to the fatal crash told investigators he tried several times to turn the engine off but couldn't. His said he had put the car in neutral but the engine continued to race until he realized the mat was stuck and reached down to dislodge it."

This pretty much indicates to me that the car, once again, could have been stopped. I know this is a heated sensitive topic and hate to rekindle it, but I find this information critical and it's the first time I've seen it.

tired_old_dave · January 2010

Just checked Ed's site this morning and saw the CTS (not Denso) gas pedal story

http://www.insideautomotive.com/

imidazol97 · January 2010

"Toyota had begun looking at the issue of sticky pedals in 2007"

The article says Toyo had been aware of sticking problems since 2007--not 2008 as other articles have reported. Amazing.

And as for "stories" Toyo says they did it voluntarily in re stopping selling the cars. The government says they were required to do so legally and the agency had asked them to.

"LaHood said, "The reason Toyota decided to do the recall and to stop manufacturing was because we asked them to."

"A Toyota spokesman, John Hansen, said today the company had taken the step voluntarily. "

wwest · January 2010

How could you possibly believe that the CHP officer driving the ES350 didn't have enough common sense, driving knowledge/experience, to shift the car into neutral...?

obyone · January 2010

Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood told Chicago radio station WGN that the government asked Toyota to stop selling the vehicles.

LaHood said, "The reason Toyota decided to do the recall and to stop manufacturing was because we asked them to."

A Toyota spokesman, John Hansen, said today the company had taken the step voluntarily.

Strickland wouldn't directly address why Toyota didn't stop selling the vehicles five days earlier when it announced the recall -- as it was legally required to do.

"At this point, you need to talk to Toyota about those decisions," he said. "We'll be continuing to work with Toyota and having conversations."

Strickland said in taking the action "Toyota was complying with the law."

"They consulted with the agency. We informed them of the obligations, and they complied," he said.

From The Detroit News: http://www.detnews.com/article/20100127/AUTO01/1270400/-1/rss#ixzz0dprtgOSM

corvette · January 2010

"LaHood said, "The reason Toyota decided to do the recall and to stop manufacturing was because we asked them to."

"A Toyota spokesman, John Hansen, said today the company had taken the step voluntarily. "

More lies. Kind of like when Toyota unilaterally announced that NHTSA had determined that there was no problem with the vehicles and was closing their investigation.

gtgtcobra · January 2010

You people are all over reacting to all this negative publicity and are worrying too much for nothing. Don't worry. Toyota will fix the problem. Go out there and drive and enjoy your Camry. I can tell you that I love mine a lot.
And only Herbie the Love Bug likes to take off by himself and that happens only in the movies.

smithed · January 2010

"You people are all over reacting to all this negative publicity and are worrying too much for nothing. Don't worry. Toyota will fix the problem. Go out there and drive and enjoy your Camry. I can tell you that I love mine a lot.
And only Herbie the Love Bug likes to take off by himself and that happens only in the movies."
^^^^^^^^^^^
Are you nuts? I would be a nervous wreck driving any of these recalled vehicles.

Karen_S · January 2010

If you are a Toyota owner and interested in sharing your reaction with reporters, send me an email stating the vehicle you own, your telephone number, and the best time you can be reached.

Send to: karen@edmunds.com

spartanman2 · January 2010

My father-in-law is a Michigan native and bought only domestic nameplates his entire life. Last month he let go of his 220,000 miled Buick LeSabre and went car shopping. He didn't really want a GM product as he was opposed to the government takeover, and was therefore leaning toward Ford. His son interfered and basically begged and pleaded with him into buying a Camry because of its quality and reliability. You have to understand my brother- in- law buys only Toyota products, and that's ok, because I'm partial to Japanese nameplates myself.

Anyway, my father- in- law caved in to his son's sales pitch and took delivery of a 2010 Camry LE two weeks ago. I talked with him this morning... He has about 400 miles on it now. I have never heard him so PISSED. My guess is that he is cutting his son from his will. LOL

kernick · January 2010

Just sit back a moment and let go of all this what was known when and what did Toyota do vs. what others woulda/shoulda done, and ask yourself how did Toyota get to this point.

My theories are:

1) Toyota did not act much different then other comapnies have acted in the past, or that other companies would have done if this was their problem. Human nature is to be mosty greedy, and to promote one's company as superior (which of course makes failure-admission difficult).

2) My main theory - this problem is a result of making what used to be a simple mechanical linkage, into a complicated system. Sure there may be benefits to electronic systems, but they certainly have a lot more parts and software that need to work correctly. I would strongly suspect this "complication" is what has made this problem drag on for as long as it has, and is making a design-fix such a lengthy process.

Growing up my father always said he would never want a Cadillac, and would stick with his Chevy. There was just too much to go wrong on a Cadillac. Similarly I'll never buy a vehicle that has one of those touch-screen panels that controls the HVAC, stereo, lights, suspension and such, when simple independent knobs that I can turn will do just fine.

isellhondas · January 2010

Somehow, I get the feeling that some of the posters here are pleased that Toyota is having these problems.

This could have happened to ANY manufacturer, not just Toyota.

Toyota builds good cars and they will get this problem tackled.

A lot of people are suffering as a result of this.

watkinst · January 2010

Toyota is learning that when you move from very simple strait forward vehicles to fairly complex vehicles your reliability record drops and the risks of having expensive and possibly very damaging brand image issues are fairly high.

The reason this thread even exists is because Toyota marketing and the parent company has done an excellent job over the years managing the BRAND IMAGE. Many people believe Toyota are a special company that make flawless products.

So here we have many people learning that no the reality of it is that Toyota is like most Auto companies and has plenty of flawed products :-)

Now the one thing I will say is that when Toyota is called out on its flawed product it has proven over and over again that it will honor a product owner by making things as right as possible - by spending thousands of dollars on a old out of warranty vehicle suffering from the flaw - or buying back old out of warranty products at market value or higher to make sure the owner of said flawed product is left as whole as possible in the pocket book.

This is something that no other Auto maker I have ever read about - owned a product for has EVER done! Especially a US Automaker which all three are known better for basically telling you to go screw your self when its clear their product has a major flaw.

My first toyota was a 91 4runner with the horrid 3L v6 I bought it with 100,000 miles on it. Two weeks later a Toyota dealer called me during a service visit to tell me Toyota the company would be covering the cost for a total rebuild of my trucks engine! They asked me to return to the dealer for a loaner car. A brand new Camary for two weeks. Toyota HQ spent $8000 rebuilding my 2nd or 3rd owner 100,000 mile 4runner. A year later while stopped in a gas station pumping gas - the head failed resulting in a huge plum of steam that cleared us from the station!!!

Toyota checked it said sorry we relaced the head with the same faulting part - we will be rebuilding your engine again. Another $6000 spent by Toyota HQ to make things right!

I promptly traded the 4runner in for a new Subaru LOL. And vowed never to own another toyota. And here I find my self driving a 1993 Landcruiser - when I bought it my thought was if all else fails I know Toyota will go to the ends of the earth to fix a faulty vehicle so I felt the risk was pretty low.

Back track to my Ford experience. Ford basically says go screw your self when you discover your Ford has a pretty serious flaw thats going to cost you big bucks to fix with the same flawed part. Hence I have never owned another Ford since nor has any member of my extended family.

isellhondas · January 2010

Customers don't WANT simple cars and the emission and safety requirements forced on the manufactures cause a lot of complicated systems to exist!

People want it all! they demand everyu option known to man, ten cupholders and airbags everywhere.

Those 3.0 V-6's weren't "horrid" engines but the did have a tendency to blow head gaskets. Toyota stood behind those engines LONG after the warrantys expired as they did in your case. What more do you expect?

Karen_S · January 2010

A specific request has come in for a Toyota owner in Minnesota. Send me an email if you hail from there.

karen@edmunds.com

imidazol97 · January 2010

>pleaded with him into buying a Camry because of its quality and reliability.

A car's relative reliability and value image in people's minds lags reality by 3-4 years. Reality is here.

glockfan · January 2010

We just purchased a 2010 Toyota 1 month ago. The vehicle is one of the recalled vehicles.
Now my wife is afraid to drive it.
Being that the vehicle is so new, do we have any recourse to try to get our money back from the dealer or Toyota?

isellhondas · January 2010

Several have asked that question and it is highly unlikely Toyota would buy your car back. They do however have to make sure it doesn't have a problem.

Man, what a mess....too bad!

peterman2 · January 2010

Afraid Camry Owner - Toyota found to keep tight lid on potential safety

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