Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

gagrice · February 2010

just how do YOU know that they know that?

From the one live motorist that was able to get his UA vehicle into the dealership. This is well documented. The service manager witnessed the car at WOT without the gas pedal depressed. The resolution was changing several sensors and the throttle body controller. Was this a one off or a fluke? I don't know. But there are hundreds of reports to the NHTSA saying their Toyota accelerated and the throttle was in the idle position. Lentz kind of let the cat out of the bag in his interview saying something to the affect that they were looking into the electronics of the engine and transmission. I know that all the people that feel real strongly about the superiority of Toyota would like to blame all the UA on the drivers. Remember most of the complaints came from people that felt the same as you about Toyota, before they had their bad experience.

popsavalon · February 2010

You are stirring the pot again! I know that this seem like fun to you as a non Toyota owner, but UA is deadly serious.

millwood0 · February 2010

" I don't know. "

so you knew that they knew it before you don't know that they knew it?

is this some kind of "I approved it before before I disapproved it" thing?

lemko · February 2010

I dunno if Ford suffered as much as a result of the Explorer fiasco because they never really had a quality image like Toyota. Ford always was the butt of those jokes about "Found On Road Dead" or ""Fix or Repair Daily." Heck, Ford's image of cheapness goes all the way back to the days of the Model T.

On the other hand, Toyota always had this image of superior quality, reliability, fuel economy, and resale value; they could do no wrong. Now, all that is being stripped away. They will recover, but they'll never have that image of invincibility again.

imidazol97 · February 2010

The Fords involved were SUVs and people realized they are more at risk of rollover or loss or control.
And Ford was able to tell people to look at the company behind the tree--the tire people: it was the tire's fault, Ford said.

In this case it's toyota and they stalled for years about determining a real problem's cause. In fact, it paralleled many people's perception of handling of the sludge problem. They blamed the customer and it's difficult to prove the engine design, or in this case the computer and system, was at fault.

gagrice · February 2010

"I approved it before before I disapproved it" thing?

I don't have to prove anything. It is the US Government that is holding Toyota's feet to the fire on proving there is not an electronic or software problem with the UA issue. The NHTSA got stung by Toyota last year with the "Floor Mat being the cause" story. When in fact Toyota knew that they had sticking throttle devices. I don't think Toyota will get to spin their way out of this mess with a kludged up fix with a shim.

I don't think people see the parallels here. The Germans went through all this chasing electronic gremlins a decade ago. Now it is Toyota's turn in the hot seat. The more you depend on electronics the more places for bugs to creep in. Toyota is just late to the DBW game and are finding out it is far from the perfect solution.

jofallon · February 2010

Cnet has an interesting story on this issue today - "Toyota's latest woes may be hard-wired".

stever · February 2010

Sharon , kernick there is already a kill switch, Im almost getting tired of saying this, but turning back the key one notch. You still then have enough steering and brakes in a potentially catatroshic event. Yes no.

You'll get tired of hearing this too, but the Lexus that the Trooper was in out in California had a button, not an ignition switch. No key to turn.

wwest · February 2010

"..some people are paid lots of money making those decisions and you aren't.."

Actually those are EXACTLY the kind of decisions I get paid to make, just don't know about the relative pay scale.

"...what if you want to induce..."

Why would you want to introduce an issue that is unique to 0.000123% of the driving population into this discussion. On the other hand the PSM in my 911/996 seems to figure out that I know what I'm doing in those type of situations and remains inactive.

wwest · February 2010

The last UA episode I had involved the floor mat.

I was approaching a traffic light and moderately braking and realized that I had to use more brake in order to stop in time. The more I pressed on the brake pedal the more the engine RPM rose to counter my additional braking effort. The car, Mazda minivan, finally stopped, safely (my good luck), a good way out into the intersection.

Travelled 100 feet, maybe, not enough time to even think about braking alternatives so a "failsafe" would have most definitely been of help.

popsavalon · February 2010

That's true, but it had a button that was a kill switch after it was pushed for 3 seconds. The real problem is that the new technology (keyless push button starting) requires something different to stop the engine, and most folks don't have clue as to what that is. I'm sure that the dealer that provided the Lexus as a loaner car to those poor folks didn't tell them to "read the manual before operating the vehicle".

The 3 seconds was probably designed to keep a driver from shutting off the engine inadvertently, and the problem of "unintended acceleration" was not considered.

Should Toyota have put a label at the push button, saying "New Feature-Push for 3 Seconds to Stop Engine"? I think not.

lzc · February 2010

"David Champion, director of automobile testing for Consumer Reports magazine, said the reaction to the recall was overblown.

"When you look at the statistics we are putting an awful lot of effort on a very small risk," he said.

"There has been something like 2,000 complaints of unintended acceleration in some 20 million Toyota vehicles -- it's almost like trying to find a needle in a haystack."

Champion lamented as "unfortunate" that it took the death of an off-duty California state trooper and three members of his family to prompt Toyota to issue a mass recall in September to address the problem.

But he said a congressional investigation was an "overreaction" and noted that the "sticky" pedal problem that caused Toyota to halt production and sales of eight models last month was not linked to any accidents or injuries.

"I'm sure it's going to hurt Toyota in the short term over the next year or so," Champion said.

"But if their products are as good as they have been in the past, we're going to see that Toyota's going to bounce back as Ford has from the Firestone (tire recall) fiasco."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5im7AzPBsRb2Q_qT0FXa8DxrjjLwA

jdm9 · February 2010

Thats a great demonstration Sharon , and its exactly what you ( I think) and I have done already. In my model he said dont turn the key off because you could go to far and lock up the steering. I feel comfortable enough to do that without any fear of that happening and most people that have any driving sense would too after a couple of practice sessions. It certainly does become more complicated though in the model he was driving.thanks for the link.

imidazol97 · February 2010

>"But if their products are as good as they have been in the past, we're going to see that Toyota's going to bounce back as Ford has from the Firestone (tire recall) fiasco."

Sounds like CR is ready to label toyotas as all wonderfully safe and reliable. I thought they learned their lesson a few years back when they just labelled them as OK without actually looking and driving--just because they said toyota on them.

sharonkl · February 2010

Thanks for saying you are an engineer. Smile - I thought so.

Please refer to links below regarding UA car control. First is video demonstration auto engineeer auto comparison between a Toyota model and a VW done by Consumer Reports Auto Engineer. I have seen news multiple reports and have bookmarked giving same advice. He says people alerts people/may not want to stop vehicles engine as steering wheel power drive will be lost and/or steering wheel may lock up. I go to CNN and see they have up stop engine as one of their steps in the process for stopping UA vehicles.

Please note I am not promoting VW products. I sincerely apologize if you own VW - they are good autos. But models just do not meet my own personal needs. Appears brake overrride systems are promoted here. And yes, I do like these systems as seem to be excellent final last safty measure - when all else fails, etc. Seems Toyota likes - they announced Nov, 2009 they will install on all 2001 models- & is before last recall..

Questions:
(1)May I please request your opinion?
(2)Will steering wheel lock? Have seen it will.
(3)Yikes - somehow I feel safer just switching to neutral, even if engine damage occurs, keep easier control vehicle w power steering intact. Note realize I am skipping mention of certain steps of process -as already aware & would do. As mentioned in my past posts have already checked if my vehicle will go into N at 60mph & no problem - I have lost power steering in past, and was not easy to drive that vehicle. IS MY CONCLUSION FAULTY?
.
Consumers report
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/video-hub/cars/safety/how-to-stop-your-car-du- ring-sudden-acceleration/17188412001/48234862001/

Refer to Q & from Toyota - seems to indicte can shut down engine - but power sterring lost
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/RunawayToyotas/toyota-recall-car-owners-driving-ca- rs-safety-recall/story?id=9670956&page=2

I look forward to hearing from you. Please accept this as an advance thank you.

dturr · February 2010

Toyota are in a mess. This situation was poorly handled by those at the top. Ostrich springs to mind. They have put themselves back 5-10 years as a trusted manufacturer.
1. Why no national TV time by Toyota to explain the true facts.
2. Where is the top man from Tokyo !! scared to face the press.
3. The Top guy in the US is not capable of dealing with this crisis.
4. Dealers are no help, will customers cars be repaired before stock?
5. Toyota have the unions and La Hood working against them on behalf of GM.
Toyota get on the TV and say sorry and "we will put it right"
Get some fantastic discounts and lease deals out there and be prepared to loose a lot of revenue. Me I would not purchase a new Toyota the residuals scare me.
Stop scam and deciptfull practices by distributors, underbody treatments - paint protection - heated seats in Florida - Stop scamming your customers and come clean.

jdm9 · February 2010

Thank you Steve finally some clarity. You cant turn a key back if there is not one. Models like that are definetly more complicated. However in a model with a key, its fairly simple. I also prefaced one of my first comments with, "when you try depends on your comfort level and the situation. Obviously dont try it in the fifth lane of the freeway." or anywhere unless under the supervision of an expert and would further say that adding this skill MIGHT help (doesnt guarantee) you to control the vehichle during an unexplained electronic occurence IF (big IF) turning the key to the FIRST BACK OFF POSITION (if it has a key), during one of these events AND the computer will still allow the hard steering and brakes AND will actually cut the motor, that most experienced drivers would be okay with it. Rookies and other fairly new drivers would need to practice in an EXTREMELY SAFE < NO TRAFFIC LOCATION< to become profecient and not panic. My daughter , a raw rookie 16 year old picked up on it after very fearfully trying it the first time. By 3 times she had the whole process down in 2010 Tundra.
1. wot at 50 mph
2. key back ONE position,(two will lock the steering) motor instantly off, loss of power steering and brakes, but still hard steering and brakes available to glide, press on brakes and steered back and forth to get the feel, truck still in drive.
3. Shift into nuetral and start the vehichle.
4. Shift into drive and drive normally

The first time she tried this she was terrified, and that was at only 40mph and there are a definetly a whole whack of people out there that are totally incapable of trying anything like this and they should NEVER try it, however I beleive any advance driving skill you can SAFELY add to your repetoire whether it be this or backward escape 180s. Might (no guarantees) someday save your bacon.

sharonkl · February 2010

Thanks - I appreciate your feelings and your response. Searching today I saw CNN has up on their site a video with a Toyota Tech that says shut engine off included in the sequential steps for car control UA. I have other bookmarked sites that say do not turn off. H-mmmm - confusing. Today I posed question here on site to one of our bloggers who is engineer. Really look forward to hearing from him.

jdm9 · February 2010

Kernick that was the first question I asked. Does anyone know if it will work in an UA event.

sharonkl · February 2010

Yes, I agree UA in and of itself is a serious high dangerous human risk exposure for accidents that can result in jnjury or even death. With that also come all the other costs we may be sujected to as a result - cost vehicle damage, increased insurance costs, costs any medical care, possibly loss of salary etc., effects DMV record, etc., etc, etc. Incidents appear to be small when compared to number of autos sold - but this particular problem is just too much of safety risk when compared to some/mnay of the other complaints all manufacturers. Smile - said this in past posts.

stever · February 2010

I think the problem with your theory is that you don't know how you will react in a panic situation.

Let's hope neither you nor your daughter ever has to put the training to the test.

gagrice · February 2010

Cut from our little local paper this morning. I see the humor in it.

kernick · February 2010

Sorry but you're asking a Podiatrist a question for a Cardiologist. While I can tell you safety philosophy and how E-Stops work, I'm far from an electronics expert on ignition switches and ECU's. But I think it sensible to first try to shift to neutral in a UA situation. Trying to turn the key 1 position, might be hard in a panic, and I'd only try that if the transmission was electronically locked in D.

fezo · February 2010

Your local newspaper in San Diego has snow in it?

i see they have now recalled 275,000 Priuses (Prii?) for the brake problem. Guess that means the new motto replacing "Toyota - Suddenly Moving Forward" will be "Toyota. You can't Stop us."

tlong · February 2010

"Toyota. You can't Stop us."

Remember their motto from sometime like the late '70's? (no joke): "Get your hands on a Toyota and you'll never let go" :P

sharonkl · February 2010

Steve I am so sorry to hear you feel this way. I apologize if my posting gave you this impresssion.

Smile -. Actually I am an RN that is trained to study and react in emergency situations. And for approximately 20+ years worked as RN - until one year ago. I was on Code Blue Team(team of emergency professional personnel that responds immediately to Code Blue overhead announcement for life threatening emergencies) for approximately 7-8 years. I was a RN Manager. My husband was CEO of ambulance firm San Francisco, past Caliornia State EMS Commissioner appoinjted by Willie Brown during the 1980's. Many of California's EMS laws regarding EMS that became law during the 1980's he was involved in. Posthumously I was humbly honored when he was awarded a lifetime service award named in his honor for his lifetime EMS work California at state level, California Ambulance Association involvement, and in San Francisco/and is now a yearly award carrying his name - SF Department of Public Health. Our son is an MD, who doesn't work as an MD, professionally does development/engineering auto computer software.

Smile - all three of us have been trained well how to react in emergency situations, and have actually taught emergency courses. Some at university level.

We are/were just very interested in safety - not just auto safety but medical emergencies as well. But we do live and enjoy life.

I joined recently after this UA started - to learn. Plus I have attempted to research extensively. And speak with my son.

Once again I apologize if I did not explain my posting well.

stever · February 2010

I think I understand what you are saying - my mom was an ER nurse for many years.

But let's go back to the California state trooper. He was presumably well trained to react in emergency situations. But when it happened to him, why didn't he shift to neutral or try to have his passenger remove the floor mats? This was a situation where he was the victim, not a responder.

I'm a whitewater canoeist and I've "rescued" probably 100 boaters over the last couple of decades (and been "rescued" a couple dozen times myself). But I've never been in a pin situation where seconds count before I drown. That's a lot different from being the guy trying to chase down a swimmer in a rapid, or the EMT responding to a crash scene.

We all aren't going to be Captain Sullys when circumstances require us to ditch our car.

sharonkl · February 2010

Kernick - Thanks for your opinion. I appreciate your honesty regarding your expertise and my particular question. I personally feel the Consumer Reports video gives pretty good demonstration for most people. CNN demonstration Video was not as good - I felt.

I could not find CNN video when I went back to save, but found on this site . Here it is.
http://amfix.blogs.cnn.com/2010/02/02/video-gas-pedal-stuck-stop-car-like-this/

jdm9 · February 2010

Absolutely your right, the first thing to try is the nuetral shift. Plan b involves turning off the key. (if it has one) All of it is very murky / questionable because we dont know how the malfinctioning computer controller will affect any of the attempts at control during a UA, which was my first question 3 days ago and still has no affirmative response one way or another. I think, however that at this stage of the game , with the very questionable / lack of Toyota leadership in this current situation, we can pretty much consider ourselves on our own, and I for one want to know and be familiar with every conceivable way that their MIGHT be to shut down my motor and safly stop my vehichle. Might I also suggest any toyota driver that at this point doesnt want to learn the same, either has the option of leaving there vehicle at home until Toyota does offer some concrete advice other than readjusting floor mats, or is not operating with a full deck. Even without the UA problem, at a very minimum a driver should know how to turn off their vehichle (any make) in various emergency situations, (some that we cant even comprehend/foresee until they have happened to you) that may come upon you while driving. Apparently that has become increasingly difficult with pushbottun , no key ignition. I have no experience with pushbutton ignition but if I had one, I can assure you that by the end of this day Id certainly know how to shut it off, at various speeds and under various conditions. The question remaining is whether any of it would help / work in a UA event.

wwest · February 2010

"..why didn't he shift to neutral or..."

How do we know he didn't try every one of the things anyone by hindsight might think up.

Were the floor mats the actual problem..??

The fact that they were burned/fused to the bottom of the gas pedal isn't enough to convince me. Into the air twice, rolled, and then burned.

anythngbutgm · February 2010

link title

As ever, if Detroit wants people to buy its cars and rebuild their trust, it needs to take care of its own business  and stop minding Toyota's.

wwest · February 2010

of their firmware supplier/sub-contractor, NipponDenso, Denso US.

Toyota may not even have access to the source code required to "trouble-shoot" the DBW firmware. And even if they do have access it is still highly unlikely they would have the talent on board for the task at hand.

sharonkl · February 2010

My son and I discussed this same issue. Why didn't he shift into N? Stop engine? CHP go through extensive training all aspects related to driving. Emergency driving would have been well taught. News articles reveal he was veteran, so through CHP QA he would have been quite well trained/qualified.for emergency driving situations.

Smile - I loved your Captain Sully comparison. We are all human and as humans emergencies can/may be difficult. Humans make mistakes. Guess you may call it the human error factor. Teaching/ practicing does help decrease this factor. The wide publicity and videos advising consumers/owners on this is great.

What, why, accident occurred? I don't know. Questions? Sadly we will never know. Was tragic.

stever · February 2010

Were the floor mats the actual problem..??

I'm not sure the folks in here have heard your "torque lockup" theory. And the cruise control theory may continue to rear its head.

imidazol97 · February 2010

> Detroit wants people to buy its cars and rebuild their trust, it needs to take care of its own business  and stop minding Toyota's.

Isn't there something odd about Microsoft, through its MSN portion, commanding others to take care of their own house?

Can we say Windows 2000? Windows Millenium? Windows Vista? And can we say that porker's name, Office.

Microsoft the kind of lockup and crashing systems with bugs is lecturing GM on behalf of toyota. I find that's really amusing.

jdm9 · February 2010

Sharon, I didnt see the CR video but the CNN is exactly what Ive been saying except that he shifted to nuetral first, I personally have not driven the model they were in, but in my Tundra we left it in drive and went directly to turning off ignition ONE NOTCH ONLY. I personally did not want to hit nuetral at wot as it was just a test and it was my own vehichle. However give me any Toyota thats not mine and Id be happy to test and video it at WOT.

sharonkl · February 2010

These are questions no one may ever know. Sadly they all died. Carpets burned and stuck to pedal/close to pedal may have been result of accident. Not the qualified investigative expert for this type of investigation/case scenerio. As I mentioned in my ealrier post he was veteran CHP officer and would have been well trained/qualified for emergency driving situations. CHP QA.

anythngbutgm · February 2010

Microsoft the kind of lockup and crashing systems with bugs

Edmunds hasn't opened a section regard OS but I've been running Microsoft platforms since '95 and never really had any of these problems (95, 98, 00, ME, XP). My wife runs MacOS and it is flawless as well.

beachfish2 · February 2010

That's why the definition of unintended acceleration includes not only car problems, but "pedal misapplication."

As a Virginia State Trooper, my father worked wrecks in the years after WWII that were caused by accidental/careless pedal misapplication. It happened then, it has continued to happen over the years and figuring out which UA reports are mechanical vs. human error seems to be impossible.

It's about the unintended acceleration, not what or who caused it.

JT, aka beachfish, aka beachfish2

jdm9 · February 2010

Bang on, but practice makes perfect.

imidazol97 · February 2010

>Microsoft platforms since '95 and never really had any of these problems (95, 98, 00, ME, XP).

You are the only person on earth who hasn't. had trouble with MS OS software.

Microsoft having MSN critique US brands is related to the topic at hand. Steve, Clair are the listed hosts here. I believe there's going to be a problem with the firmware/software in the computers. And adding a brake sensor input to trigger return to idle won't work if it's dependant upon the defective computer to always retake control of the motor.

Hopefully toyota is going to finally get serious about this and save some lives.

deltheking · February 2010

That is one of the most level headed article I have read amongst this stupid mass hysteria and the media sensationalizing the news !! No wonder Detroit and the US economy is in chaos..Thanks for the article. :shades:

stever · February 2010

Bang on, but practice makes perfect.

Yeah, but no one taught Sully how to ditch an Airbus A320. It's not in the flight manual or in the simulator programs (maybe they'll add it now). You don't learn to "land" airliners in the water - that's why they call it ditching and not landing.

They ain't Cessnas on floats, and we don't get driver's ed like troopers do.

sharonkl · February 2010

Here is Consumers Report Video done by auto engineer comparing a Toyota model and VW - how to stop vehicle - UA incident. Video appears to also display brake override systems also. But this system also seems to be what eveyone is talking about since I started. Many manufacturers have already. Nov, 2009 Toyota announced they were installing all models 2011, and maybe sooner. This was before this last recall. Not endorsing VW in anyway - just felt really good - widely publicized video. .

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/video-hub/cars/safety/how-to-stop-your-car-du- ring-sudden-acceleration/17188412001/48234862001/

Consumer Reports is consumer advocate. Maybe this is why. And they are well respected.

larsb · February 2010

sharonkl says, "Consumer Reports is consumer advocate. Maybe this is why. And they are well respected. "

Be wary of saying that around here. There are cynics among us here ( myself excluded) who think CR are a bunch of "bought and paid for" biased dudes and dudettes......:)

jdm9 · February 2010

Was the report I heard that it was a loaner with pushbutton, (Did anyone hear that report as being confirmed).so not being familiar ,he possibly pushed it and got no response, not knowing he had to hold it in 3 secs. In any case very sad.

gagrice · February 2010

been running Microsoft platforms since '95

As the computer guy at work I had a lot of experience with every MS operating system since DOS. Win 3.10 was not too good. 3.11 was a bit better. Win95 and Win98 had lots of problems. Win98 SE was very solid. WinNT got better with Win2000 Pro. Win ME was a disaster. I have used a lot of machines with WinXP and like the Pro version best. My wife has Win Vista and we hate it. If they get the bugs out of Win7 we will upgrade.

I have lots of friends with MacOS and it is far from flawless. The Apple image reminds me of Toyota. Lots of perception of greatness, without much to back it up. Apple almost went bankrupt without Jobs to market their products.

Toyota needs some leadership that can bust this trend of diminished quality over the last 5-6 years.

stever · February 2010

It had a button. You have to hold it 3 seconds to turn off the engine

Talk Back Tuesday: Does This Fatal Crash Expose Technology's Darker Side? (Edmunds CarPool)

jdm9 · February 2010

Thanks for the second link, it pretty much says to practice what weve already been practicing. Both videos show what should be standard knowledge/expertise for Toyota and for that matter all drivers.

gagrice · February 2010

Yes it was the push button model of the 2009 ES350. The dealer also tossed in rubber floor mats from an RX SUV that were too large. The previous person the car was loaned to had runaway acceleration and reported it when he turned the car in. He was able to pull the floor mat away from the accelerator and get the car stopped. The conclusion by the Santee Sheriff's dept was the over sized rubber floor mat was the cause of the accident. Which puts the blame directly on the Lexus dealer in El Cajon. I have over 100 links that I have read on the crash as it is a regular route I drive. I still have questions about the shifting into neutral. So far no one has been able to give a valid answer. The main question is, will the car shift into neutral at 120 MPH with full throttle. Or does the computer disregard the command.

Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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