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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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Comments

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Wireless glitch? That'll be the headline in 10 years. :D
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Well, I just went to a super bowl party where four people owned Toyotas. None of them had investigated issues at all, nor were they worried. And one has Lexus ES350 being recalled. This person that has Lexus did say she had hard time with fact - floor mat would interfere with gas pedal. She had checked.

    I don't have a genie to predict the fallout from the negative publicity Toyota has gotten. Lots of bad publicity. Toyota - conflicting release of info. Then the last recall for the pedal problem on a Friday, and it took them 5 more days to stop sales of their affected vehicles - even though it was against the law to sell defective autos off dealer lot..Sort of a big whoops! And not the best crisis mangement displayed. Yikes!

    We shall see.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Funny! Am all set again, but must admit my typing fingers stray anyway. .
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Good info - would hope Toyota does too. Maybe there are laws for this - & service centers would have to have/need in future.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    We're all fluent in chat typo around here. My problem is that I'm always words out. Spell checkers don't catch those.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    No, my bet is that a LOT of past sins are about to come to light.
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    Terry Gardner - Rental agencies pull Toyotas

    You may have to look hard if you hope to get a Toyota from your favorite car rental agency these days. Late last month, as news of the recall heated up, Avis, Budget, Enterprise, Alamo and National announced that they would pull all affected Toyota models and GMC Pontiac Vibes (which share the engineering DNA of the Toyota Matrix) from their rental inventory. Hertz, Dollar and Thrifty followed suit.

    The vehicles won't be rented until they have been repaired. Because vehicles generally are reserved by car class rather than model (with a few exceptions such as hybrids), the companies think they can fulfill reservations. "We continue to rent the Toyotas in our fleet [that are] unaffected by the recall, as these vehicles do not pose any safety concerns," said John Barrows of Avis/Budget. "However, if a customer is uncomfortable with that vehicle, we will work to provide them with an alternative within that car class, if one is available."
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    By DAVE CARPENTER, AP Personal Finance Writer Dave Carpenter

    CHICAGO – Toyota owners looking to trade in their cars have little reason to sing the carmaker's old ad slogan, "I love what you do for me — Toyota!"

    Recalls and a bungled response to safety questions are putting a dent in the resale values of their cars. For years, Toyotas have been praised both for high quality and maintaining their worth. These days, the Toyota in your garage is no longer like money in the bank.

    Some dealers are refusing to accept Toyotas for trade, while others are paying considerably less than they did just two week ago. Kelley Blue Book has dropped the value of recalled Toyotas by as much 3 percent. The auto research Web site Edmunds.com estimates resale or trade-in values could fall up to 10 percent in the short term.

    The decline will likely continue as long as uncertainty and defects continue to shadow the world's No. 1 carmaker.

    Toyota Motor Corp. has so far recalled more than 7 million cars in the U.S., Europe and China over a sticky accelerator and floor mats that can get caught in the gas pedal. Its prized Prius hybrid — which is partially powered by electricity — is under investigation for momentary brake failure. The company is expected to announce its plan for fixing that model this week.

    Kelley, which two months ago named Toyota the best brand for resale value, says recalled models are now worth $200 to $500 less per car. Another cut of the same magnitude is planned as soon as the coming week unless the recall controversy abates and demand for Toyotas stops declining, Kelley spokeswoman Robyn Eckard says.

    Similarly, since the first recall for sticky accelerator pedals on Jan. 21, Edmunds' estimate for the trade-in value of a 2009 Toyota Camry has fallen by 4 percent to 6 percent to $13,967 while the 2009 Toyota Corolla has declined 6 percent to $11,233.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Well no not entirely true. On more then a few cars that have had the park/brake safety switch fail I have manually tripped the switch by popping up the cover around the shifter and hitting the switch. That switch is usually on the driver side front below the shifter or directly in front of the shifter. You fumble around there for a few minutes and you can release it by hand.

    Not a common situation but you don't have to press the brake to get that switch to release you just have to hit the switch.

    Also on two occasions I just muscled the lever out of park by force. I couldn't get that switch to release for the life of me and I got tired of screwing with it. You pull hard enough and that switch will release by just destroying itself and shearing off. It didn't even take me two hands to do it just my right hand pulling pretty hard and bracing with my legs.

    Now the aftermath of that was the shifter wouldn't get back into park anymore because I mangled the mechanism but I also wasn't stranded anymore either. Dropped the car off at work and they fixed the shifter.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146
    Have any of you noticed the new TV ads by Toyota, addressing the recall issue and apologizing to customers for letting them down? I thought they did a pretty good job of facing up to the fact that they've lost trust.

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  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    kirstie....maybe a regional thing? I don't remember seeing anything from Toyota over the last few days.

    At least they're finally admitting their errors, though. That's a first step. I still think it's going to take more than that to get people into their showrooms, though.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • lzclzc Member Posts: 483
    >>>None of them had investigated issues at all, nor were they worried.

    That's been my experience. One neighbor bought a Camry 4 days before the pedal recall. Still, he took off on a 800 mile round trip drive and complained about the media trying to scare everyone.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Saw it a couple of times over the weekend. It was pretty cut and dry and honest to me as well.

    Now, as far as it actually working is another thing...

    Checked out a few dealers in Southern Masachusetts on Saturday while I was down there. (2) Toyota dealers had lookers on the lot and a few tagged cars out front that had been test driven and a few customers at the witness stands, I mean negotiating tables :P.

    There was a Ford and a Government Motors dealer on the same strip as one Toyo dealer and another GM dealer nearby our destination.

    Ghost Towns, cemetaries, burial grounds... I am amazed that even on a Saturday afternoon with the sun shining bright and the weather somewhat cozy that these dealers can generate no traffic and still be in business. I know their dealer base buries Toyotas dealer count in quantity but is it really that out of whack? :sick:
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    That's kind of unfair because the old Toyota models were the better ones. I think they peaked with the 1992-96 Camry then started a slow decline which has recently turned into a quick one.
  • lzclzc Member Posts: 483
    Yep, the '92-'96 Camrys were the best. The '92 Camry preceded the Avalon and the Cresida was near its end. I bought a '92, thinking this was the replacement for Cresida, that Toyota intended the Camry to be its premo model.

    The vinyl, upholstery fabric, interior fixtures and, especially, the seats, were all higher quality than later years. We kept it for 15 years.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    This "trickling out:" of information...."we might recall the Prius/Lexus"....or, we're thinking about reflashing ECUs"....."we're not sure what we're going to do with the braking software"....an on and on.

    Toyota's not doing themselves any favors. They need to act...even if it's to say...."we don't know what the problems are, but are working around the clock to find them, and offer a viable fix."

    As it stands, they're bleeding themselves.....only, they're doing it with thousands of paper cuts.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    F/U Wireless Mouse problems yesterday I posted. New mouse today. Ha, seems past incident where my dogs tipped glass of water into where mouse was did finally kill it last night or ????.

    Here is link today - news report discussing politicans on investigation committee's, etc. and their connections to Toyota corporation.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35293626/ns/business-autos/

    I had posted earlier on politics. lobbyists, etc influence and effects. And I do know this news agency does trend more to left. Hope others address as well.

    Just "food for thought" and do hope "unbiased & fair" balance found. And is just behind the scenes look at government working. When we critque government positions & actions and Toyota stances and actions - consumers should be aware, consider, & evaluate.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Toyota better do something about the 2010 Prius. NHTSA ODI has 969 complaints of brake failure in that new model. I have never seen a vehicle with as many complaints as the new Prius. That is phenomenal. The Prius never was much good on snow and Ice. This may be the worst model yet.

    http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/complaints/results.cfm
  • dturrdturr Member Posts: 70
    I myself think that was a PR company $1 million dollar disaster.

    All the calming music and pictures from a stationary factory line.

    I prefer honest facts. Someone in power sitting in front of a camera admitting to a cover up and giving accurate details of the so called fix. sorry fixes.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    gagrice....I was hearing just last week that "Toyotas made in Japan are immune because they're made better". That kind of threw me, because that says that they're intentionally making products in other parts of the world that were inferior.

    Now, the Japan made Prius is on the firing line (as is the Lexus counterpart). As each day goes by, this "crisis" (As Mr. Toyoda called it) just keeps getting worse and worse for Toyota. It should be going the other way. I thought by now they would have had some sort of plan to help during "crisis management". But, it's clear now, they don't.

    I think it would go a long way if they'd at least admit they srewed up royally. Not point the finger at a supplier (CTS), not deny a problem exists, etc. At least Americans are a forgiving lot. Come clean. State..."Look, we messed up big time. Not only are we sorry we got caught (referring to them destroying incriminating documents), but we're even sorrier we don't have an ironclad fix for the problems. But, we will. And when we do, we promise to be better than ever."

    Lots of fluff there. But, it sure beats what they're doing to themselves, their dealers and their customers now.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Actual cost for development/engineering to work out all the issues is not enormous cost for a corporation. But could involve modification of other systems - not engineer. But each year many of these other systems are updated, changed anyway for new models. Since other auto manufacturers have already implemented these systems, and have good UA stats - does reveal excellent safety feature. Consumer Report auto demonstration comparing four autos for stopping continuous full throttle acceleration - two with brake override & two without brake override good. Just have not seen any reports for any demonstrations where vehicle traveling at higher speed, and then a UA incident strikes, increasing speed even higher. California freeway driving speed limits many times above 60mph. Would be a very dangerous demonstration - I personally think.

    So far I am leaning towards this vague description possible government/Toyota crisis management plan in approaching Toyota issues/problems & possible outcome. Toyota has 40% of all manufacturers complaints for UA, 19 deaths, and have long history of increase UA complaints since implementing DBW 2002-2003 with prior attempts to address/stated corrected in past. And I may change too as all unfolds and we see what happens in the future
    1)Floor mat recall - shows public action taken. - claims of no electronic problem -corporation liability issues addressed. - DHTSA can protect own turf - claim they are acting & may be./?
    (2)Toyota announcement November 25, 2009 brake override system to be installed all models 2011. Installation brake override systems on some present recalled models.
    (3)Pedal Recall. shows public action taken. - claims of no electronic problem -corporation liability issues decreased. - DHTSA can protect own turf claim they are acting & may be?
    (4)2011 - Etc. - Toyota can claim success recall action taken - statistics for UA improve and drop to where many other auto manufacturers are with low stats... Brake override "whitewashes" any intermittant computer/electronic difficult to prove bugs, since auto computer does not record these bugs.
    (5)DHTSA looks good - safe face - can say they are doing good job -
    (6)Owners/consumers happy.
    (7)Toyota will regain position. We shall see what effect issue has upon sales, and if it has difficulty - how long it takes to regain consumer confidence and future ability to make autos with good reliability.

    Bottom line. If safety improved great. Guess we shall see.
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    What is the DHTSA?
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    I know what you mean. But do like spell check to help my own personal typing faults. I leap before checking.

    As I just posted earlier today - it totally went dead last night. Had past incident recently where one of my dogs had spilled glass of water stealing a delicious goodie at back of desk. Seemed to recuperate ok, but then finally died last night??? New one now.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    What is DHTSA? Governemnt adminstration department/agency that oversees, investigates, takes action, takes consumer complaints on autos as well as other products, etc. Etc, etc.

    Here is link to DHTSA
    http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/
  • xluxlu Member Posts: 457
    Here are some more:

    Toyota, moving forward and can not be stopped...

    Toyota, we stand behind our products (not in front)...
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think some article misquoted NHTSA (National Highway Transportation Safety Administration) with DHTSA. I have seen it repeated several times. It could be an agency in our federal government. Lord knows we have about two times more than we need.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Yes, they do appear to be now. I wish they would have pounced with this statement immediately/sooner though. Modern day technology and news media publicity can/does create huge factors to consider in present day crisis management. Public access is good to assure/actually see/make sure integrity of government and corporate .approaches/actions present. Unfortunately many of the behind the scenes involvement/documents/stances/interractions etc. are not public.

    Safety is always a must. And this particular complaint, UA, in and of itself, is cause of higher human safety risk exposure + all the other cost risk exposures/effects that owner/driver is subjected to as a result of a UA incident..

    UA complaint causes result effects(injury,death, etc), and is not result effect(accidents.injury, etc) causing the complaint (auto defect apparent and dangerous). What does complaint cause? What is complaint caused by? That is what it is, just plain and simple. Can it be resolved to prevent/decrease? How I seem to view issues. I am medical professional so will always keep pushing/being advocate on this issue.

    UA complaints have continued over many years despite approaches/actions taken in past claiming resolution of problem, and would like to now see that is undeniably addressed/actions taken to decrease UA incidents in all auto manufacturers models. Some other auto manufacturers presently have higher complaints too. My research indicates UA could be decreased, and other manufacturers have addressed already and safety feature implemented.

    Hope all ends well for Toyota, US government, and consumers/owners/future owners Toyota is at the plate now. I'm hoping they can hit the ball, move to all the bases, & achieve the winning final score this time. No more of the past moving to the bases, but not scoring..
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146
    our discussions are topic-oriented, and we do expect members to stay pretty close to the topic indicated in the discussion title. Funny manufacturer acronym meanings isn't related to the recall.

    Several off-topic messages have been removed.

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  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    Since Toyota has implemented the pedal fix are they now allowed to sell those vehicles on the dealer lots that have been repaired? Start manufacturing again?
  • tomjavatomjava Member Posts: 136
    Car and Driver article about UA and Brake:link title

    Also about media circus surrounding this matter: link title
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Kristie

    Do you know why Toyota announced recall for pedal fix, but no stop sales on a Thursday??? No repair was available when this particular recall announced. Yikes - is against law to sell known defective autos off lots. Who, why, etc. got it right, realized - & five days later stop sales finally announced??

    Do you know what happened here??? Maybe you have some info to help clarify for us???
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    I don't think injecting facts and rationale into this discussion is helpful at all, :)

    seriously, I like the title of the article, "Toyota Recall: Scandal, Media Circus, and Stupid Drivers"

    and also this line: "Our own instrumented testing determined that you can safely brake a car from highway speed, even with the throttle pegged."

    I remember reading assertions by "experts" here that those german cars (BMW, MB and VW in particular) have this "brake override" feature. Well, my tests on my own cars (BMW and Infiniti) suggested otherwise, and my recollection of driving my MB as well. I have been fortunate enough so that I don't have to own a VW so you have to wait for that confirmation.

    what it tells all of us is that the internet's greatest strength is also its greatest weakness: by empowering everyone, the internet also empowers monkeys with keyboards.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146
    No, unfortunately my crystal ball was confiscated (unfairly, I might add), leaving me with no special insight on the matter. I'm just a wandering host here - not an industry insider!

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  • maple2maple2 Member Posts: 177
    Yikes - is against law to sell known defective autos off lots. Who, why, etc. got it right, realized - & five days later stop sales finally announced??


    Careful, some people around here still think that toyota voluntarily, out of concern for human life, stopped building and selling those deathtraps. ;)
  • lzclzc Member Posts: 483
    Wow! Thanks for posting. Car and Driver gets an A+ for politically incorrect bravery. I doubted any public entity would defend Toyota and suggest the unthinkable, driver error is the likely culprit.

    And (what a concept!) quantifying the odds of occurrence. Who would think to point out that the odds of UA are exceeded many times by all kinds of activities we think nothing about doing. Certainly not most of the media.

    The article's mocking tone will turn off some people, but it's just the reverse of those who gleefully dance on this hysterical public relations disaster for Toyota.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Tomjava,

    Thanks for the links. I particularly liked this auto comparison demonstration for stopping auto at full throttle. Different autos used this time when compared to Consumer Reports auto demo. Good.
    And higher speed demonstrated. They must have been at a track to conduct.

    Other article is good for review too. Smile - he is critical of drivers it seems. What can be called human error factors. Great for my collection of articles - as I reveiw all. Seems to analyze other issues as well. Sort of states it as it is - how he sees Toyotas.

    Hope other bloggers are evaluating.

    Thanks. Helpful.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Part of government. New reports - President Obama has increased funding for NHTSA in next budget. Have read they may hire 66 more investigators. Reports their budget had been kept same for a few/several years. I can not factually verify reports though.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Here is link that will help address question who is NHTSA. Go to section "Who are We?" - then can download pdf file to see complete answer. Etc.

    http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/portal/site/nhtsa/menuitem.416f74e861399238160103104610- 8a0c/
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Thanks for your response. Couldn't understand why the pedal recall and no stop sales were not done same day, especially since selling
    any defective models on dealers lots illegal. Big whoops!.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Dealers have pedal fixes now, so legally when fixed autos can be sold & have seen some news reports some are being sold now.

    Against law for dealer to sell known defective autos not fixed off lots.

    § 573.11 Prohibition on sale or lease of new defective and noncompliant motor vehicles and items of replacement equipment.

    (a) If notification is required by an order under 49 U.S.C. 30118(b) or is required under 49 U.S.C. 30118(c) and the manufacturer has provided to a dealer (including retailers of motor vehicle equipment) notification about a new motor vehicle or new item of replacement equipment in the dealer’s possession, including actual and constructive possession, at the time of notification that contains a defect related to motor vehicle safety or does not comply with an applicable motor vehicle safety standard issued under 49 CFR part 571, the dealer may sell or lease the motor vehicle or item of replacement equipment only if:

    (1) The defect or noncompliance is remedied as required by 49 U.S.C. 30120 before delivery under the sale or lease; or

    (2) When the notification is required by an order under 49 U.S.C. 30118(b), enforcement of the order is restrained or the order is set aside in a civil action to which 49 U.S.C. 30121(d) applies.

    (b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not prohibit a dealer from offering the vehicle or equipment for sale or lease, provided that the dealer does not sell or lease it.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Yikes hope I am not in trouble for this?? Was just fact I had read researching from multiple different sources. I didn't understand.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I have not seen any official report stating the shim fix will get Toyota off the hook. Only an anonymous someone at the NHTSA said it should be a go. I think Toyota has to come up with a better fix than that. But I am not making the decision. That would be the Federal Government that forced Toyota to quit selling vehicles in the first place. I am waiting for the recall on the Throttle body failure that caused UA for the well publicized Toyota driven to the dealers with a WOT. A shim would not have fixed that failure. Of course the Federal Government is shut down due to GW causing heavy snowfall in DC. So we will have to wait until the NHTSA gets back up to speed, if they ever do.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    > I particularly liked this auto comparison demonstration for stopping auto at full throttle.

    I didn't catch that CD let up on the brake and then pressed it again, all the while holding the throttle open. And repeating the way a scared driver might do. Most of us have learned to drive where pumping the brakes helped boost the fluid used by a bad master cylinder. Or pumping worked on ice. That lowers the booster assist to the brakes and then the driver can't apply enough force to overcome the motor.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    "§ 573.11 Prohibition..."

    so, in plain English, what does that mean?

    :)
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    "a scared driver might do."

    you meant "an incompetent driver" instead?

    that's Darwinism at work. and that's how we have evolved over the last billions of years.

    and we will continue to do that, stupidity not withstanding.
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    "(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not prohibit a dealer from offering the vehicle or equipment for sale or lease, provided that the dealer does not sell or lease it."

    so basically a dealer can sell or lease a defective vehicle unless s/he doesn't sell or lease it.

    I love those lawyers, :).
  • tomjavatomjava Member Posts: 136
    Again, nowadays almost all modern cars equipped with Anti Braking System (ABS). With ABS, never ever pump the brake period. I bet most drivers will panic when ABS is on, and blame the car when accident happens. :sick:
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >you meant "an incompetent driver" instead?

    I don't think most people involved in the runaway acceleration and the parking accelerations are incompetent. When things happened unexpected and happen quickly, people don't have time to think about what to do.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    you meant "an incompetent driver" instead?

    I would say designing a braking system that goes against tried and true braking practices makes the auto engineers the ones that are incompetent. This whole UA with Toyota is the first time I have seen any reference to cars only capable of one or two pumps on the brake before they are depleted. That to me is a design problem not a driver problem. Drivers that were trained 40-50-60 or more years ago will pump the brakes in an emergency to NOT lock them up. Changing designs without massive retraining becomes a liability to those that make the changes. It would be interesting how the courts would see that issue.

    PS
    Evidently the CHP officer in the runaway ES350 was trained to pump the brakes as I was.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    The brakes do not fail as a result of applying and releasing several times, you "simply" lose the brake boost assist unless the engine intake manifold vacuum can be used to replenish the boost.
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