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2005 Subaru Legacy
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Comments
~alpha
The new Turbo Subarus are another story - just plain fast.
I would call the current Outback signficantly quicker than the 123 hp Vibe/Matrix, and I would not call either of those vehicles suitable for the type of commute I will have in the near future.
~alpha
DaveM
I believe ABS became standard on all Subies in 2002, when the latest generation Impreza came out.
Honda is way, waaaaaaaaay behind and finally committed to catching up - but only after remaining behind for 2 more years to come.
They are in no way the pioneer for safety equipment. Subaru pioneered AWD as standard. VW pioneered side curtain air bags and stability control on cars. Toyota pioneered stability control standard on every SUV (currently, not 2006!).
Honda remains behind the curve and hasn't pioneered squat in terms of safety features. What's amazing is their PR spin!
Having said that, I've long been asking for better availability of VDC. Like Toyota has already done with VSC.
-juice
Technically it was 1997 because in 1996 you could special order a FWD L sedan or wagon but I believe that was fleet sales only.
zoomer1 - You can ALWAYS find something that another car has standard that isn't offered on the car that you desire. It's all about compromises. FYI - AWD isn't available (or even an option) on the Insight, Odyssey or S2000 either.
And why doesn't Honda still offer an Accord or Civic wagon? After all Subaru still offers wagon versions of their compact and midsize cars. But of course that's Subaru's business model. :-)
I do agree that it would be nice to have VDC standard on all Subarus. When Subaru determines it's necessary, they'll add it.
DaveM
-juice
what does VDC stand for?
DaveM
For instance, Toyota has VSC (Vehicle Stability Control) now, but people don't like it much, so for next year it's been redeveloped and will have a new name, VDM (Vehicle Dynamics Management?) I think.
VDC by Subaru includes stability control, traction control (included with every stability control system I believe), and VTD AWD with a 45/55 rear bias power split.
When they are nicely integrated like Subaru has done, the ABS and AWD work in harmony together.
Here is a full PDF if you wanted to read about Subaru's system:
http://210.101.116.115/fisita/pdf/G347.pdf
But to summarize, some advantages over competitors' system includes the fact that it can send 100% of power to either axle, one single wheel actually, while Audi's is limited to 67% per axle. Also, the system is completely pro-active, and adjust the power split before slippage occurs. Audi's system is quick reacting, but it's still reactive. Toyota's VSC was deemed slow to react as well as too intrusive, which is why they bagged it.
-juice
Manual Transmission: viscous-coupling locking center differential to distribute the power 50/50 front to rear.
4-spd Auto: electronically managed continuously variable transfer clutch to actively control power distribution in response to driving conditions
5-spd Auto: Variable Torque Distribution (VTD). A planetary center differential works with an electronically controlled continuously variable hydraulic transfer clutch to manage power distribution
Outback 3.0r VDC Limited: Vehicle Dynamics Control (VDC), an advanced stability system that controls VTD operation and integrates an electronic four-wheel traction control system
All of this stuff sounds like great technology but how much difference does it really make? In New Zealand, where the Legacy 2.5i won AA Autocar's Car of the Year Award: http://www.subaru.co.nz/news/index.html?id=606, they said that Subaru’s basic AWD is just fine (see excerpt):
"Unlike the Accord and 350Z, the Legacy has no traction or stability control…nor does it need any. It’s a complete package just as it comes, an all-wheel-driving machine that eschews gizmos simply because it has the most physical grip of any new car released in 2003."
Don't get me wrong, I love technology but I get worried when it starts sounding like that old Saturday Night Live parody about the "Triple-Trac" razor (when twin blades were hot). "The first blade pulls the whisker away from your face so the 2nd blade could then pull it out further so that the 3rd blade...". "Why do we do this?" Pause. "Because you'll believe anything!" Then the triple blade became a reality and last year Schick introduced the "Quattro" with 4 "precisely synchronized blades." Why - because we'll believe anything!
So, come on, if all this stuff is so important that it really makes a difference to the safety of its drivers, Subaru should just put it on all their cars - standard. I'd like to see some side/by-side tests of Subaru’s various AWD offerings to see if there's really any significant difference in handling and performance. Or does all this just drive up the price without improving the drive?
In fact if I had VDC I'd want an off switch to be able to play around once in a while.
However, it is a great safety feature for emergency avoidance manuevers. I can say I'm fortunate enough that I've never needed it up until now, but I can't say I'd never be able to benefit from it.
Guess you could call it diminishing returns. You get a lot of bang for the buck by getting your basic AWD. A rear LSD adds a little extra, and then VDC would add an even smaller margin of safety beyond that.
-juice
Traction Control isn't intended to keep the car on the road?? or it isn't intended to make decisions for the driver? I mean the idea of TC is to prevent a need to over correct right? which is something humans are great at doing in an extreme situation, therefore the directional vector is not corrected because there was no need, with TC and AWD?
I am not arguing I am making sure I have an understanding. I am thinking very seriously about getting a Legacy, but it is competing with some cars that do have some kind of "VDC" but not awd so I am trying to make sure I don't need some kind of VDC.
AND the car I buy with or without VDC, will need HEADROOM!!!
great discussion thanks!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Mark
Toyota's VSC has been deemed by many as too QUICK to react, and intrusive (as you state). Its only supporters are the hyper safety oriented Consumer Reports editiors. Car and Driver, Motor Trend, et al. dislike the system because its non-defeatable in almost all applications, beeps at you annoyingly when its activated, which occurs too early and too intensely in performance testing.
I'm interested to know what the differences between VSC and VDM actually are. VDM is said to allow a much greater performance envelope. I'm sure CR will disapprove.
~alpha
As Consumer Reports and others have stated, Traction Control is just a feeble attempt to compensate for lost traction on cars that do not have AWD. (Yes, they did say that TC was very much inferior to AWD for traction).
The only advantage I can see with TC added to an AWD car, is that it would cut power for gradual take-offs so you do not spin all 4 tires.
VDC would be nice to have, but would hope it had a turn-off switch, or I would not want it. VDC cuts in to spirited driving. Also AWD has a little bit of VDC built in it, delivering power to "the wheels that grip" to increase stability. It does help in slippery or tumulious conditions though.
As to the computer aided driving...if you want the Legacy and wish to have electronics that can help you with traction then you should choose the car with an automatic. The manual tranny will send 50 percent of the power to each axle AT ALL TIMES and in icy conditions it creates for interesting driving...white knucle experience on a frozen overpass with no divider.... You want an AWD system that can control the power distribution front to back and side to side. For you that is the A/T Legacy. As someone pointed out in earlier posts Subies differ from other companies in that the front to back can be 100 percent. Volvo uses the Haldex provided tranny and in some applications can shift 100 percent power back and forth. Audi, I believe, can also do that in some applications. VW in their passat 4Motion can send some percentage back and forth (67%?). I am not sure if VW does side to side. Another impressive application is the Infiniti AWD in the G35x.
Finally, you can turn off the VDC in the 3.0 OB. I tried it with and without. W/O it you can definitely spin the OB around very quickly as pointed out in the Consumer Report article. A fully loaded OB with 8.4 inches (new truck classification) of clearance is going to need the VDC...Other SUV makers are rushing to put those electronics in because of INSURANCE COSTS and LIABILITY and also because of competitive pressure. Volvo one upped everyone with the Rollover Control software...
as far as M/T got to have it. you can't buy a quick car and then give it a disadvantage!
as far as 50/50 power distribution all the time I don't know if I agree? the M/T has a "Viscous-coupling locking center differential"
(http://www.subaru.net/usproduct/2005/legacy/Legacy05specs.htm)
now I don't know a whole lot about locking differentials but I do know that they do allow some slipping, therefore some power fluctuation between the front and back would be permitted right??
as far as needing full traction control.. never had it therefore I don't know what I am missing, yet I will take it if I can turn it off and it is offered!.. the fact that all four wheels have power will be better then what I have now. besides in day to day I will probably have TC off so I can play, I mean what is the point in having 250 horses:)!
Automatic equipped Subies excluding VTD equipped models have a default torque split of 90/10. So it behaves very much like a FWD car until slip occurs. IIRC, this system can send up to 50% to the rear. VTD on the other hand has a default split of 45/55, and acts more like the VC system, albeit more proactive than reactive.
I would be very surprised if the '05 Legacy's start hitting the lots at the end of March. They're only going into production in the middle of March. I would bet it will be more like late April or early May when they hit the dealerships. Although I hope you're right as I've got my eye on a GT Limited Wagon and the sooner the better!
-Ian
Bob
Legacy will get a rear LSD for traction, plus AWD obviously, but not traction or stability control. I think that Subaru is a leader in traction management and IMO this is a mistake.
The Ford Focus offers stability control, so does the Scion xB. This is not exotic technology any more.
-juice
Safety Subaru, safety is your upscale ticket. Use it - don't keep it in one model configuration!
Ralph
Honda has promised the same by 2006, let's see how Subaru responds.
-juice
-juice
as far as M/T got to have it. you can't buy a quick car and then give it a disadvantage!"
I believe it was a 2003. Got one with very low mileage.
If you must have M/T AND AWD with headroom and it has to be less than $30 your choices are limited. Go up in price a little bit and you can try the Jaguar X type 2.5--maybe a Murano if you want a lot of room but that is not a Sedan. Volvo S60 maybe with autostick...
-Brian
-juice
Yes, I've been there, and it doesn't talk about the 3.0L six, only the normally aspirated 2.5L and the boosted 2.5L. I'd like to find out if the 3.0L will be an option.
Steve
Which is strange, considering they sell an H6 Legacy in Japan. I think it's exported from here, too.
-juice
Hmmmm..Wait till I email C/D and tell them they were WRONG!! The article lists all three engines in two separate instances. My hopes were high that I'd have a choice between boost and displacement. The dealer just smiles when I ask them.
~alpha
It's hard to find another vehicle in ANY category that has such a well rounded score.
-juice