Who are are these people who keep advertising the Avalon on these boards?
The Car is more expensive than either 500 or Montego, and seems to be designed to help drive up the Toyota brand. The 500 is meant to save a great American company from extinction. These cars seem the same but they are not. A souped up Avalon is near-luxury. A 500 is a comfortable family car with enough space to do anything you want.
Are you people agents of Toyota? What is going on here?!
Avalon Touring plus Moonroof, Upgraded Stereo, Anti-Theft Alarm: $30,470
A difference of $1605 comparably equipped. Seems reasonably close.
Sure, when you start adding things to the Avalon that are not offered by Ford, it surpasses the price. But.... Ford had chosen to make the best Five Hundred/Montego only comparable to a mid-grade Avalon. The Five Hundred/Montego are also compared to the more expensive (and more feature-rich) 300 models, so whats the issue?
BTW, an excellent article on the Five Hundred in the March issue of Car and Driver. 8.3 Rolling to 60 for the CVT/AWD combo. As ANT has always said, that transmission truly capitializes on everything the 3.0L has to offer. Not bad at all.
Sometimes "certain" engines are so strong at certain RPM's, that the CVT wouldn't be needed, and instead might do better with a simple 6 speed Ford/GM designed automatic.
My father has ordered a Ford 500 SEL AWD CVT, and he has been told that it is on "temporary hold." Neither the dealership nor the regional office can tell him what that means. The car was originally due for delivery last week, but nobody can give him any more information. Does anyone have any insight I could pass on?
In this day and age, expecting one product to save a company is wishful thinking. Even if it was possible, it would need to be a revolutionary product that clearly is a market leader and provides the image and momentum for the rest of the product line. The new Passat appears to be a nice car and certainly an improvement over recent Ford products, but it certainly doesn't have any of the characteristics of the savior of a company. The last time a domestic company was truly saved by a new concept would be Chrysler with the early 80's K-car platform. Often new concepts just make things worse for the bottom line as Saturn has demonstrated or many years.
"It's off to a good start. The 2005 midsize Mercury Montego is in short supply without offering rebates, and more than 40 percent of its buyers traded in a non-Ford product, mostly Japanese imports. The sedan, available in front-wheel- and all-wheel-drive, the latter a feature the Japanese don't offer in their sedans, replaces the Mercury Sable. Even Lincoln-Mercury President Darryl Hazel is a bit overwhelmed with Montego's success."
I read the article as directed. Actually, I was one of the car owners trading in my Japanese import for the 05 Montego AWD. Without knowing this story beforehand, I wrote a comment defending the Montego. (Please see my comment, #18 on Prices Paid & Buying Expense.)
I predict the Montego/Ford 500 will be a great success, especially the AWD version. With further upgrades/options, which I am sure Ford/Mercury will make in the coming years, a lot more import car owners will switch to them. These upgrades/options would include, but not necessarily limited to, a 3.5L engine with more horse power, a navigation system, antenna on the windshield, lock on the gas refill cap, real wood trim, etc. As long as the price stays competitive (around $35000 with the upgrades), people will buy this car. Don't be so sure this car is only for older people (I am 62). My son, at age 23, also loved this car at first sight.
It is about time for the domestic cars to reclaim at least some of the market shares that they lost years ago. With your help, we will get the job done.
I hope that the Five Hundred/Montego are successful, but so far the sales seem disappointing. The industry analysts were questioning Ford in a conference call earlier this week about when the sales pace of these cars will pick up.
"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both."
Dwight D. Eisenhower, Inaugural Address, January 20, 1953
Now, remembering that, this is what you wrote,
"The new Passat appears to be a nice car and certainly an improvement over recent Ford products, but it certainly doesn't have any of the characteristics of the savior of a company."
You don't even call is by its name. You say its a Passat. If the 500 is a passat then a Civic is a full size pickup. Look, if you don't like Ford, then good, don't write in these forums, buy Japanese. In fact, live in Japan, you'll see its a verry different, and not so bright a place. But that's Okay, ignorance is bliss.
Ford represents many of the things that are good about America, and it needs saving. Fords taxes pay for many of the governmnet programs that "yuppies" cheer for in theire civics.
If we don't understand what makes us great, we will never be great. I'm sorry but your last post really struck a chord.
This is a good company, this is a great car. Sooner or later features will be added, many are in the works, its selling without rebates. The only reason you hate this car (and you do, since you know enough about its name to log on to the forums yet can't remember it when you have to post) its that its produced by the country that produced you.
To give everyone the CLiff Notes version, there's a lesson Lexus/Toyota has learned from BMW. And that is, to improve the vehicles, add options, improve engines, upgrades, as the vehicle ages. This way, it'll always keep the vehicle fresh and something to keep customer's interest, as the vehicle ages.
Again, BMW has done this for awhile. Toyota/Lexus is now interested in following the same route. Ford has done this for quite awhile but "GASP", they are negatively critisized for it.
I'm interested in seeing how the media spins this in a positive light for Toyota/Lexus, 2-3 years along the line.
This article is puzzling, to put it mildly. They claim the Montego is in short supply and selling without rebates, yet they have yet to sell even 1,500 in a month -- a tiny number for a mainstream family sedan. If this is true, then Ford anticipated pathetic sales and only built a few of the things. I don't buy it.
The 500/Montego wasn't ment to sell at a 20K a month pace. It's part of a sedan strategy that picks up sales from Taurus would be buyer's who need something a bit bigger without the huge wasteful porportions of a Crown Vic. While the new Fusion picks up the other remaider.
Not to mention the back-up of vehicles still at the factory parking lot being fine combed through before released to make sure everything is perfect.
Any question about what may or may not be posted can most likely be resolved by reading the "Rules of the Road" linked at the top of the page. If that doesn't help, and if the full-fledged Membership Agreement (linked on the left) doesn't answer the question, all you have to do is email a host and ask.
There is nothing wrong with linking to other publicly accessible articles no matter where they are.
January was an absolutely horrible month for retail new cars. Ford was down year over year by over 12% (i think alot of truck sales were pulled foward into Dec 2004)
In a bad sales month, we sold more Five Hundreds than in any previous month. It really feels now like people know about the car and are interested.
I previousl wished that Ford cars gave you the same feeling that Ford Trucks. The feeling that this is the best vehicle like this out on the road.
We recently had a big snow storm and had to move all the cars on our lot to plow. This is always a bad experience because in the cold and with cars sitting sometimes for months without being moved, you can imagine how many cars have to be jumped.
That being said, we moved over thirty F-150s, only one had to be jumped. (someone left a door ajar).
Freestars and Tauruses were the worse.
The Five Hundreds and Freestyles were fine, but they haven't been on the lot for months yet.
The Five-Hundred actually feels like it was made by the same company as the F-150. I just hope this proves to be the case.
Granted, Ford was a good company years ago, and they are trying again to gain some of their old flair. They didn't do that with either the 500 or the Montego. Both OK cars, but not what they needed to overtake some of the competition. I've posted here many times with my feelings about the lack of features that these 2 cars need to become real top sellers. Then they come out with another new car, the Fusion, which I thought was going to be a killer car. Once again, they didn't go for the jugular. I was really hoping that this car was going to be "it" for Ford, but i don't think it will be. They insist on using the same 3.0 they used in the other cars. Why didn't they kick it up a few notches? You mentioned about Ford being good for America. If they are so good for America why are they making the Fusion in Mexico???
I'm ok with the 3.0L being the standard and only available engine for now. I'm NOT ok with no navigation available. The focus groups may not have scored it highly as a necessity, but the competition all have it. That can't be ok.
I agree on the Nav. The domestic manfacturers & dealers are missing the boat on this accessory, as it becomes more indispensable the more you use it. I can't believe Ford brought out a new design and didn't attempt to accomodate the possibility of Nav.
The foreign mfrs. are much further along the curve on this (and especially on luxury brands). Not sure whether it is a function of age (as a Caddy dealer told me) or the type of customer, or the marketing.
If you remember foreign cars had reclining seats forever. Finally the domestics realized that customers may actually want them. Not sure where they get the focus groups but they probably aren't car buffs.
Its good for America because it begins to even up the playing field with the imports, who either produce the cars overseas or produce them here with next to nothing union interferance. This will show the UAW that they have to be more competetive with salaries and benefits if they want production shifted back to NA.
If Ford and GM didn't diversify enough, they would wind up like Chrysler.
The main reason Ford is so good for America is that its based here, so overseas profit is taxed too, and pays for many government programs that only the top 5% can really afford to fund.
Just as a counterpoint to the above discussion. I have a Jag with nav and several other cars without it, including a 500, and don't miss it one bit in the others.
Even the best systems are tedious to use and frequently don't report the best routes, can't correctly locate the address, etc.
For me, at least, nav is more of a toy than a genuinely useful accessory.
Here cares about paying up to or over $2,000 for a navigation system when this option is NOW OBSOLETE.
Thats right, WHY PAY THOUSANDS of dollars for something that you can get with your current cellular phone!
One of the current major cellular phone service. The one that made the walkie talkie feature famous now offers GPS navigation with turn by turn directions and voice prompts..
Good thing to because the Ford Navigation system is a Pain to use its CD-Rom based with 8 discs.
Now keep that in mind, Discs go out of date as information changes and they can be damaged with use.
I can't wait until more companies offer cellular navigation. Oh and you don't have to purchase a special phone, all phones sold in the US built after 2002 are GPS enabled for enhanced 911 service.
True, and even if you want a bigger screen and louder voice, systems like the Garmin 2620 cost less than 1/2 as much, and the data is stored on a hard drive. Incremental updates or full new releases of the maps can be loaded, different countries added etc., and if I fly to CA, I can pack it along and use in my Hertz without paying extra.
Hi, my first post here. I currently have a 2001 Crown Vic LX-SAP with 90K miles. It's a great car and I was starting to look for a change. So, I'm thinking G35X, Maxima, TL and so on. I brought my car to the dealer for it's 90K service and he threw me the keys to a 500 LTD, fully loaded and said try it for the day. I put 125 miles on it. A mixture of highway and city driving. It was GREAT! A much more noticeably solid structure, smoother than the Vic if that's possible and plenty of room. Now, I still haven't driven the competition but with the size advantage of the 500, the others will have to be excellent to make me think of changing. I agree with the post above about Nav, we have a Garmin 2620 and that's really the way to go. My wish would be to have satellite radio built in. I am an XM subscriber and I know that Ford is in bed with Sirius, but some of the "foreign" cars offer a choice of satellite radio. I think there'd be many buyers of this option.
I just got an email from carsdirect.com which listed the 15 most oversupplied vehicles- among them were the Freestar, the Freestyle, and the Five Hundred. That can't be a good thing for Ford. And after the auto show in Philly, I think its a shame- the Five Hundreds I was in were very nice.
I can't possibly understand why they would state the vehicle is oversupplied. Firstly, it's built in a flexible plant, which can produce another model with a flick of a switch. Secondly, there's numerous order's that haven't yet been filled. Thirdly, it's selling at higher than expected volumes.
What methods that website used to state such a claim, is beyond me.
THe March 2005 issue of Car & Driver has a full test of the Five Hundred. It shows an a 0-60 time of 8.0 seconds, equipped with 4-wheel drive & CVT. I have a '99 Grand Marquis with performance package that was tested by the same magazine @ 8.2 to 60. It always amazes passengers with it's highway pickup. I submit that non 4 wheel drive, with six-speed tranny will be quicker (lighter); and more familiar with the expected downshift properties. Additionally my 8.2 is more than satisfying! I would expect a front wheel drive to be about the same as the standard engine Pontiac Gran Prix (7.7)... Is that quick enough?
I don't like to be redundant, and I did post this in another forum, so apologies. Test drove a 500 LTD yesterday with CVT. Gave it a complete check out, in front & in back riding. Very, very impressed all around. Can't find anything not to like from a practical standpoint, and I'm at that very practical point in my life.
Was the outgoing Toyota Avalon also included in the list? I mean you coming here often and marketing the new Avalon (how much do you get paid for that? ;-)
Based on all figures I read the last few months, it could not be true. The 500 and especially the Freestyle are in big demand and Ford is not able to supply them. I agree with you about the Freestar minivan, though. They are not selling well at all.
You may have hit on a really good point here. Ford and GM aren't making good use of the internet, (except for a Lincoln VP for a short time), but I bet the overseas manuf. are. Probably have gone beyond following their own vehicles to coverlty "bashing" others and planting false msgs. Wonder what that job pays?
Ford you have given you one to do a long term test on just for them! Good to hear you're still in love though. What kind of real life mileage are you getting, john?
About 22 in town, as much as 29 on the road, though 27 is more typical. However, if the weather is very cold (as in below 20 degrees F), the mileage suffers drastically. I figure the CVT has something to do with this!
ANT, You mentioned before that my father's "temporarily delayed" order on his 500 was probably due to transportation issues, and he should be seeing it soon (thanks for the reply, by the way.) Unfortunately, the car is now 3 weeks overdue, and nobody can tell him anything. He has exhausted all available options including the dealer, the regional Ford office, and all contacts available from Ford's website. The only advice he's gotten so far is "wait a few days and see if the status changes." Nice. He's about at his wits end with this whole thing.
Do you know of any way to find out exactly what the deal is with his car? He understands that delays happen, but right now nobody can tell him why there is delay, or if it will be another two days or another 2 months. Any advice you, or any of the other forum goers could provide would be greatly appreciated.
At THAT time it was a transportation delay. Now there's a supplier issue with the AWD system. Demand exceeded supply unexpectedly and Haldex is pumping up AWD system productions as quickly as possible. This could be the only possible delay I can figure.
Other senario might be the unit having been built, someone might have caught a possible issue, and they are going through it with a fine-tooth comb. More over, nothing turns up when they do this, but some examples are picked randomly, are scrutinized after assembly to assure the quality is still intact and there's no issues.
ANT, thanks a bunch; I really appreciate it. Would you happen to know of any resource I could point my father too that could give him some specific info on his car? Right now he's totally in the dark, as is the dealer and the regional sales office.
Sorry to be a pain; no worries if I'm asking too much here. I know you have better things to do than be my personal Ford contact. : )
...I don't think there's any doubt what happened. As pointed out above, the Haldex system is supplied outside of Ford, they underestimated demand, and now production is way behind because they can't get enough hardware. The problem will eventually get solved, but not overnight.
If it's a FWD order, there can be no rational explanation - these cars can be bought off the lot anywhere in the country right now.
Regional should be able to find out for you usually, but specifically it's quite difficult for them to find out. It's one of those wait and see situations.
Thanks, guys. This is an AWD order, so that seems to be the logical reason for the delay.
I am a little surprised that Ford isn't communicating this more clearly to their customers, but hopefully they will catch up to demand soon, since the AWD capability is one of the major selling points of the vehicle.
The demand for the AWD 500/Freestyle has been higher than expected, it caught Ford off guard so more AWD systems are being assembled to catch up with demand.
Comments
The Car is more expensive than either 500 or Montego, and seems to be designed to help drive up the Toyota brand. The 500 is meant to save a great American company from extinction. These cars seem the same but they are not. A souped up Avalon is near-luxury. A 500 is a comfortable family car with enough space to do anything you want.
Are you people agents of Toyota? What is going on here?!
Montego Premier FWD plus Safety Pkg and Moonroof:
$28,685
Avalon Touring plus Moonroof, Upgraded Stereo, Anti-Theft Alarm: $30,470
A difference of $1605 comparably equipped. Seems reasonably close.
Sure, when you start adding things to the Avalon that are not offered by Ford, it surpasses the price. But.... Ford had chosen to make the best Five Hundred/Montego only comparable to a mid-grade Avalon. The Five Hundred/Montego are also compared to the more expensive (and more feature-rich) 300 models, so whats the issue?
BTW, an excellent article on the Five Hundred in the March issue of Car and Driver. 8.3 Rolling to 60 for the CVT/AWD combo. As ANT has always said, that transmission truly capitializes on everything the 3.0L has to offer. Not bad at all.
~alpha
http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/mercury3e_20050203.htm
"It's off to a good start. The 2005 midsize Mercury Montego is in short supply without offering rebates, and more than 40 percent of its buyers traded in a non-Ford product, mostly Japanese imports. The sedan, available in front-wheel- and all-wheel-drive, the latter a feature the Japanese don't offer in their sedans, replaces the Mercury Sable. Even Lincoln-Mercury President Darryl Hazel is a bit overwhelmed with Montego's success."
I predict the Montego/Ford 500 will be a great success, especially the AWD version. With further upgrades/options, which I am sure Ford/Mercury will make in the coming years, a lot more import car owners will switch to them. These upgrades/options would include, but not necessarily limited to, a 3.5L engine with more horse power, a navigation system, antenna on the windshield, lock on the gas refill cap, real wood trim, etc. As long as the price stays competitive (around $35000 with the upgrades), people will buy this car. Don't be so sure this car is only for older people (I am 62). My son, at age 23, also loved this car at first sight.
It is about time for the domestic cars to reclaim at least some of the market shares that they lost years ago. With your help, we will get the job done.
Dwight D. Eisenhower, Inaugural Address, January 20, 1953
Now, remembering that, this is what you wrote,
"The new Passat appears to be a nice car and certainly an improvement over recent Ford products, but it certainly doesn't have any of the characteristics of the savior of a company."
You don't even call is by its name. You say its a Passat. If the 500 is a passat then a Civic is a full size pickup. Look, if you don't like Ford, then good, don't write in these forums, buy Japanese. In fact, live in Japan, you'll see its a verry different, and not so bright a place. But that's Okay, ignorance is bliss.
Ford represents many of the things that are good about America, and it needs saving. Fords taxes pay for many of the governmnet programs that "yuppies" cheer for in theire civics.
If we don't understand what makes us great, we will never be great. I'm sorry but your last post really struck a chord.
This is a good company, this is a great car. Sooner or later features will be added, many are in the works, its selling without rebates. The only reason you hate this car (and you do, since you know enough about its name to log on to the forums yet can't remember it when you have to post) its that its produced by the country that produced you.
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=101705
Source: Autoweek
To give everyone the CLiff Notes version, there's a lesson Lexus/Toyota has learned from BMW. And that is, to improve the vehicles, add options, improve engines, upgrades, as the vehicle ages. This way, it'll always keep the vehicle fresh and something to keep customer's interest, as the vehicle ages.
Again, BMW has done this for awhile. Toyota/Lexus is now interested in following the same route. Ford has done this for quite awhile but "GASP", they are negatively critisized for it.
I'm interested in seeing how the media spins this in a positive light for Toyota/Lexus, 2-3 years along the line.
Not to mention the back-up of vehicles still at the factory parking lot being fine combed through before released to make sure everything is perfect.
There is nothing wrong with linking to other publicly accessible articles no matter where they are.
In a bad sales month, we sold more Five Hundreds than in any previous month. It really feels now like people know about the car and are interested.
I previousl wished that Ford cars gave you the same feeling that Ford Trucks. The feeling that this is the best vehicle like this out on the road.
We recently had a big snow storm and had to move all the cars on our lot to plow. This is always a bad experience because in the cold and with cars sitting sometimes for months without being moved, you can imagine how many cars have to be jumped.
That being said, we moved over thirty F-150s, only one had to be jumped. (someone left a door ajar).
Freestars and Tauruses were the worse.
The Five Hundreds and Freestyles were fine, but they haven't been on the lot for months yet.
The Five-Hundred actually feels like it was made by the same company as the F-150. I just hope this proves to be the case.
Mark
The foreign mfrs. are much further along the curve on this (and especially on luxury brands). Not sure whether it is a function of age (as a Caddy dealer told me) or the type of customer, or the marketing.
If you remember foreign cars had reclining seats forever. Finally the domestics realized that customers may actually want them. Not sure where they get the focus groups but they probably aren't car buffs.
Its good for America because it begins to even up the playing field with the imports, who either produce the cars overseas or produce them here with next to nothing union interferance. This will show the UAW that they have to be more competetive with salaries and benefits if they want production shifted back to NA.
If Ford and GM didn't diversify enough, they would wind up like Chrysler.
The main reason Ford is so good for America is that its based here, so overseas profit is taxed too, and pays for many government programs that only the top 5% can really afford to fund.
Even the best systems are tedious to use and frequently don't report the best routes, can't correctly locate the address, etc.
For me, at least, nav is more of a toy than a genuinely useful accessory.
Thats right, WHY PAY THOUSANDS of dollars for something that you can get with your current cellular phone!
One of the current major cellular phone service. The one that made the walkie talkie feature famous now offers GPS navigation with turn by turn directions and voice prompts..
Good thing to because the Ford Navigation system is a Pain to use its CD-Rom based with 8 discs.
Now keep that in mind, Discs go out of date as information changes and they can be damaged with use.
I can't wait until more companies offer cellular navigation. Oh and you don't have to purchase a special phone, all phones sold in the US built after 2002 are GPS enabled for enhanced 911 service.
Mark
~alpha
What methods that website used to state such a claim, is beyond me.
Based on all figures I read the last few months, it could not be true. The 500 and especially the Freestyle are in big demand and Ford is not able to supply them. I agree with you about the Freestar minivan, though. They are not selling well at all.
~alpha
Ford you have given you one to do a long term test on just for them! Good to hear you're still in love though. What kind of real life mileage are you getting, john?
The difference is the Impala got LOUSY in town mileage (15-19) and much better on the road (27-31). It also seemed to be much less weather dependent.
I am very happy with the Five Hundred so far. If the Fusion also came in AWD (and it will in about a year and a half), I MIGHT be tempted. Maybe.
Do you know of any way to find out exactly what the deal is with his car? He understands that delays happen, but right now nobody can tell him why there is delay, or if it will be another two days or another 2 months. Any advice you, or any of the other forum goers could provide would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Other senario might be the unit having been built, someone might have caught a possible issue, and they are going through it with a fine-tooth comb. More over, nothing turns up when they do this, but some examples are picked randomly, are scrutinized after assembly to assure the quality is still intact and there's no issues.
Sorry to be a pain; no worries if I'm asking too much here. I know you have better things to do than be my personal Ford contact. : )
If it's a FWD order, there can be no rational explanation - these cars can be bought off the lot anywhere in the country right now.
Regional should be able to find out for you usually, but specifically it's quite difficult for them to find out. It's one of those wait and see situations.
I am a little surprised that Ford isn't communicating this more clearly to their customers, but hopefully they will catch up to demand soon, since the AWD capability is one of the major selling points of the vehicle.