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Ford Five Hundred/Mercury Montego
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Comments
Don't assume that what you see in Florida is typical of all the rest of the country. It may or may not be...
~alpha
Trying to find a Montego is even worse...
That may be, but the local dealer in Manchester, NH only has 26 in stock of all trim levels. This same dealer family (Autofair) stocks around 50 Honda Accords, by contrast. Only 4-5 of them are AWD, all Limited with Moonroof or SE.
We wanted an SEL AWD for a company car. Could be a month or more wait. Even trying to get an SEL in Blue has proven difficult. We haven't seen one yet because they sell them before we get there.
Despite auto mag reports of being underpowered they're a lot faster than a Subaru 2.5, underpowered car and with only a 4spd auto. Almost no improvement from my '97.
I'm very pleased with the Legacy thus far, and was happy to note that it was Automobile Magazine's All Star Family Car for 2005. (Now, if the Fusion had been available at the time of purchase, things may have changed dramatically. I really like the look of this car, aside from the ghetto fabulous taillights.)
Any time I've commented on the Five Hundred in relation to speediness, I've commented more on the end that when you're looking at the nicer trim lines, with leather, moonroof, etc.... the car is simply not on the same level as much of its competition when it comes to power. And, I'm impressed that the Five Hundred AWD managed 8.3 in the Street Start to 60, by Car and Driver's watch. That certainly isnt slow. But other cars priced at 27K-30K will easily show taillights to the Five Hundred. And if you're looking at a Legacy in that range (the GT Limited), it will blow the doors off the Five Hundred.
Regardless, it is clear that the Five Hundred offers good value, and is a great overall package. The high marks from Consumer Reports will most likely be a boon to the vehicle as well, as that review wields significant weight with many non-enthusiasts.
~alpha
I chose the Five Hundred because I needed the rear seating space and the huge trunk. Friends, rightly IMHO, talked me out of the wagon. The sedan was just too small for my needs/wants.
Consumer Reports gives the weight of the Legacy sedan as 3,540 lbs. They report the Outback wagon to be 3,545 lbs. Subaru USA reports 3,245 versus 3,355, a difference of 110 lbs. CU give a 0-60 number for the 4cyl 4 speed auto Outback of 11.8 seconds. What time have you recorded for 0-60? My 1997 Subaru Outback does 0-60 in just under 15 seconds.
Point is the Outback is a relatively popular but much smaller car with room for four only and much worse peformance than the 6 cyl AWD 500. So if the Subarus can achieve sales success with their level of performance, so can the AWD 500.
1) Subaru of America gives the weight of the Legacy Sedan 2.5i 4 speed automatic as 3245. The vehicle tested by CR was a 2.5 GT Limited 5 speed auto, which is shown as 3435 lbs in Subaru literature. I am not certain, but do believe that the CR number of 3540 includes weight for instrumentation, which would account for the difference.
2) Subaru shows the Outback 2.5i Limited as weighing 3410. The difference, according to Subaru spec, between the 2.5i Limited OB and our 2.5i Sedan is 3410-3245 = 165 lbs. Thats not insignifcant. In your post, when you were comparing weights, you did not hold constant for any one trim level, or engine, or body style. In my original post, my intention was to compare two vehicles with the same engine-the 2.5i that I drive on a fairly frequent basis to the OB Wagon Limited, whose 165 extra pounds is a detrimental burden, IMO.
3) I dont understand your comment about a 4 cyl 20 MPG car. The Turbo is fast. Fuel economy is the price that is paid.
4) I find it odd that you clearly state
"Despite auto mag reports of being underpowered they're a lot faster than a Subaru 2.5, underpowered car and with only a 4spd auto. Almost no improvement from my '97."
Then you state "CU give a 0-60 number for the 4cyl 4 speed auto Outback of 11.8 seconds. What time have you recorded for 0-60? My 1997 Subaru Outback does 0-60 in just under 15 seconds."
So, in other words, you apparently cant feel the difference between two vehicles that are separated by a whopping 3.2+ seconds in acceleration to 60?
5)"Point is the Outback is a relatively popular but much smaller car with room for four only and much worse peformance than the 6 cyl AWD 500. So if the Subarus can achieve sales success with their level of performance, so can the AWD 500."
I dont believe a majority of OBs are the 4s. In fact, I think most OBs this generation are the Turbos and H6s, I will try to get you hard facts. But in any case, sales success is dependent on many more factors than simply performance and room. The Outback is a vehicle that has carved its own niche and has developed a fiercely loyal following. Additionally, the Outback range starts at 23K and goes through different trim levels and 3 engines, and that variety contributes to its success.
How is the Five Hundred different? Its aimed at a larger market-the full size vehicle. It offers only one engine and tranny combo with AWD. The different trim levels of the Five Hundred do not have distinct personalities as do the basic, Turbo, and H6 Outbacks. The customers of the Five Hundred are not as easily demographically categorized, but I would bet they ARE more willing to consider many alternatives, and the Five Hundred does have a few. Ford was smart to offer AWD, as the only main competitor for that model is the 300. But against that vehicle, the Ford is not as exciting, unique, or interesting, despite being a better value and a better package, IMO.
Finally, I have not timed our Legacy to 60.
~alpha
~alpha
23 Five Hundreds,
21 Tauri/Tauruses
30 Foci/Focuses (we lead in our zone in Focus sales)
45 Freestars!!!!! ARUGH
17 Freestyles, the highest level yet
here is where the volume is though,
67 F-150s
90 Explorers
37 Escapes
We only have 23 Expeditions.
I would say that since Expedition is a low volume model for us that our 500 inventory is below where it should be. My dealership would probably like to have between 30 to 40
Also even with all those Explorers and F-150s, they will still be the two 05 models we sell out of first.
That being said, where Ford REALLY needs a home run, isn't the Five Hundred, but the revised Explorer coming out this fall.
Mark
My '97 has 152,000 miles so it's substantially slower than new, when it was still slow.
I'd love to know if Ford will have a 3.5 l motor available for '06 500's.
I never made any claim that the 4 cylinder automatic Subarus are faster than the Five Hundred. They are not.
However, at 30K you have 2 other options should you chose a Legacy or Outback. You have ZERO options in the Five Hundred. This is all that has ever been my point; when priced in the upper strata of the Five Hundred/Montego range, there is more power available everywhere else. And it is my opinion than many plunking down about 30K are looking for a strong portfolio of features, among them power. And perhaps electronic stability control.
~alpha
Sorry about that.
~alpha
Several Five Hundred mentions:
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0502/15/A01-90583.htm
This is what i think is going to happen. Look at the shifts in europe, there are two reasons large cars do not sell there, taxes (based on the size of the car and engine) and taxes (leasing to insane fuel prices).
The big reason large cars are going down is because fuel is getting more and more expensive, and in order to improove fuel economy you have to reduce the size and weight of the car, and the size of the engine.
SUV's are going up because people expect to have horrible fuel economy with SUVs and they like big cars, the big trunk, the room, so if cars keep getting smaller, they will move on to SUV's its that simple.
But with new technology like Displacement on Demand, Variable Valve timing, and Direct Injection, as soon as they become more and more affordable they will be put together on to more and more cars, and you will see fuel economy improve to the point were you can have a large car again and not worry about it.
We are on the verge here, we just need to wait a bit, meybe 5 or so years and you will see large cars are not going anyware. I personally prefer a large car, and i love the Idea that FOrd has raised step in height to make it easier to get in and out of. This is excellent and meybe im spoiled, but i love bieng able to drive with my legs and arms flailed about, only a big car can give you such freedom.
Relax people, the only thing will be what companies are healthy enough to put these important technologies into their cars sooner.
At work we set out to buy a Subaru wagon and wound up with an Accord - the fold-down rear seat made it about as practical for our use. We think the 500 is also a great fit, but we'd like a bigger motor in the AWD version for longevity and performance.
GM has the most to loss in this example since each brand has a vehicle that cater's to this market. Therefore, badge engineering might be required to sustain profittability, or rather, build vehicles from existing architectures and yesturyear engines to spread out the engineering costs while providing each segment a vehicle. Then at that point, you risk negative media/consumer perception over a specific brand.
Minivan's are another segment facing similar issues because of perceptions accumulated during the past decade. You might see them evolved into "Multi Utility Vehicles", rather than the mommy mobile stigma they have received.
Small pick-ups are also another declining segment.
Large domestic sedans seem to reflect this already. Most are loaded with safety features,come with ample power and deliver good economy. Especially highway mileage. 28 to 31 cruising mpg is not so far from what the smaller sedans with four cylinder engines and automatics deliver. The 500 and freestyle have upped the ante a bit with trans and drive line choices to extract the most from a relatively small motor.
My wife's car has a 2.7 engine, it goes fast enough for me.
Big cars with big engines are also sold in Europe for those with leadfoot and deep pockets to pay for them.
It is Saturday, and the ads:
Dealership 1
"Every 500 has a minimum $3,000 discount"
Dealership 2
"$3,000 discounts on 500 SEL's
Dealership 3
"1,936 discounts on 500 SE's"
Dealship 4
"500 SE for $19,990"
There are others, but around here, discounts seem easy to get on the 500. Some may be one vehicle only, but I would think when they say "all 500's", that would mean all.
Ford has the best dealership base in the nation. When traveling that becomes very important.
Some americans will not be satisfied until they kill everyone one the road with their "big tanks". Especially when they try to drive them like a sport's car and too many are running around with low tires.
As for your low tire comment, I find it very ironic that the Five Hundred, for all its safety features, has neither low tire pressure monitors nor stability control available at any price....
~alpha
But I sat in a Ford 500 two days ago. What a joy to get in and out of. (I am a 69 year and stocky)
When my 2002 Windstar LX goes(two more years) I hope the 500 has a larger engine. I have read every post on this Forum in the last few days. Very enlightening, very helpful. Congradulations for a great forum made up of some knowledgable posters.Greaat questions - great answers.
My gripe with Ford: I like everything on the Limited except leather. I want evertything but leather. And there is no way to get the Limited features without leather.
That's an interesting program. I wish I had more details. I'd be surprised that too many people would cross-shop the 500 (even in the AWD version) and Subaru, two car classes smaller. In this area Audi sedan owners would seem to be more likely to consider the Ford, as one example. Subaru is trying to break out of their niche status at the same time so it's curious that Ford would target their owners. Anyone have the details?
Page 235 of the Owner's Guide states "we do not recommend the use of gasolines labeled as REGULAR that are sold with octane ratings of 86 or lower in high altitude areas."
I live at 8700' and purchased the car in Denver. We can only purchase REGULAR with an octane rating of 85. Neither the Ford literature or the sales person mentioned I would need to purchase mid-grade fuel for my local driving.
I don't feel Ford has been totally honest in their sales presentation. The Sales Manager for the local Ford dealership says 85 octane is not a problem, but I can't get anything in writing.
Is 85 octane a problem? I'm not looking forward to spending extra on mid-grade gasoline. Any other owners in high altitude areas?
Dusty/Bill
I don't live in high altitude areas, but it is a fact that no matter where you live, as long as you never hear any engine knock (also known as "pinging") under heavy load, you are not damaging the engine. Engine knock sounds like a bunch of marbles dropping rapidly in succession into a steel bucket and is caused by preignition of the fuel in the cylinder.
If you do experience knock then switch up to 87 octane, which is what regular grade gas is in most of the country, which is at much lower elevations than you.
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It's being called the "Subaru Conquest" rebate and is $1,000. It's not listed here.
The scene where Jack and his security team assembled for a building raid, a silver 500 was shown from the beltline up. Very easy to spot the roofline!
Ford is a sponsor of 24, and if you notice, all the good guys drive Fords. (off topic trivia...all the good guys in the first season used Dell computers, all the bad guys used Apples!)
Hopefully we'll see more of the 500 in 24.
It explains many things about the car that ANT14 never mentioned.
http://businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_08/b3921045_mz011.htm
http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-hy-neil8- dec08,1,867249.story?ctrack=2&cset=true