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2005 Toyota 4Runner
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New color keyed rear spoiler
4Runner will be available in Salsa Red Pearl for 2005.
I have seen nothing official about the 4Runner getting this upgrade to the V8. I'm not saying that it is not, just that I haven't heard anything official from Toyota. Same with the V6 getting the 5 speed AT.
~alpha
An auto LSD (Limited slip diff) switch introduced as the escape function exclusively for 2WD vehicles replacing the current TRAC OFF switch.
Cruise control cancel has a memory function to reset to original "cancelled-at" speed, even when car drops below minimum speed.
AUTO LSD indicator added to gauge cluster
Rear Spoiler design changed to enhance deflection performance.
Front passenger airbag sensors added.
NAV system now available on cars with third row seating - Limited only, and will include JBL audio with 8 speakers, no cassette, non-synthesis.
BTW: Salsa Red Pearl will be added for 2005. No other color changes other than interior is now called taupe rather than oak or beige.
And Slandy, I wasn't looking to be made happy. But you still didn't cite where you got that info from, for all I know that is internet heresay. Direct me to where you got the info so I can read it for myself. Again I'm not saying it is not true, I just want to read it myself.
Thanks
Don't know if things are the same, but it discouraged me twice from buying Toyotas when in lived in NC - I bought a Mazda and a Honda instead.
- Mark
For a comarison, you can buy an 04.5 Mitsu Endeavor XLS that has standard ABS, side Airbags, traction control, power seats, and a six disc changer for $28,500 MSRP.
The reason 4Runners are hard to find with side airbags is because the regional offices, not Toyota, decide how to order the vehicles. Most regions believe that the majority of people who will pay for the side airbags, will be Limited buyers. If this is to change, people must vote by telling their dealers, who will pass it on to the regional offices. You can special order a 4Runner with any options you want, but it will take about 3 months to get it.
"For comparison" where is the Endeavor's stability control system that even the cheapest 4Runner has standard?(or for that matter, a 20K RAV4).
~alpha
I'm sorry but I find it hard to believe that REGIONAL offices are COMPLETELY responsible for building decisions made by Toyota. If so, then why did RAV4's suddenly start appearing with them? Do you really think that the REGIONAL executives who called for them?
My guess it that Regional executives preferences are taken into account by corporate but that if corporate makes a major decision - like "We will build most 4-Runners with option GY (side curtain airbags)then the regional guys and dealers just do their best to figure out how to sell them ...
Just my 2 cents. I'm no corporate exective so take it for what it's worth ...
1.)Recalled power train, Recalled Seat belt
2.) Two new tires replacing tires that came with the car and had a 12,000 tread warranty
3.) A rear passenger door that could not be opened from the outside or inside (dealer went 80/20) because I was 38 months into the car.
I can't wait to purchase my 2005 4runner. I am sure it will be very similar to the 2004 and I know it won't have as much problems as my Ford did.
Does anyone know with standard tires on 4runners how long the Manufacture warranty runs? It has be longer than 12k right?
You do make a few good points. The endeavor doesn't have curtain overhead airbags. They come out of the side of the seats. Obviously it's not as good as a full curtain system,, but it's better than having no side airbags at all. I've been driving one as a company car for over a year and I've been really pleased with it.
I was considering getting a 4 runner. But I can't afford the higher end LTD models that have power seats. I hope Toyota fixes the problems with the manual seats on the base model 4 Runner for 2005. It's embarassing to be selling $30,000 SUVS and the seats don't work properly. Even the lowly Mitsubishi doesn't have customers invoking the lemon law to buy back cars because the manual seats rock back and forth and "can't be fixed". A high resale value is nice, but you shouldn't have to put up with those kind of basic defects.
My Solara had the same problem with "rocking seats". After numerous trips to the dealer and almost $2000 in warranty work, they finally got fixed.
I am going to purchase a new 4Runner soon, very soon...I can't decide whether to wait for the 2005's to be released or purchase a 2004. I'm sort of in a hurry to purchase. This is where your opinions come in...is it worth waiting??? And if so does anyone have any clue when they will release the 2005's???
chuck999, any dealer can special order the vehicle for you, there's no try about it, unless there is a difference between regional office policies that I'm not aware of. As far as price, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to get the same deal as a stock unit, keeping in mind that there is no price protection from Toyota, and that incentives can change. And yes, it was input from dealers that caused the distribution manager for the Chicago region to increase the percentage of side airbag orders.
As far as sales of 4Runners go, in our area we have not had that much demand for side airbags, and we have very few available units.
Ok one last question...if I ordered one immediately when the 2005's were released when is the soonest I will receive it???
I agree with you - any dealer SHOULD be able to special order an SR5 or Sport with side airbags. I think that the reason the Baltimore Area dealers were so unhelpful is that their lots are FULL of unsold units - it was much more in their interest to try and hardsell a Limited than to actually help. Certainly regions are different - interesting that there are few unsold units in your area. If you want to see some inventory - go to www.carmax.com and look at the stock of 4runners in Laurel MD - I realize that they're a huge dealership but they have way over 100 in stock with 2005's just months away! (and no rebates yet .....)
What convinced me that I want side curtain airbags is this website:
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ratings.htm#sideairbags_- 04
Check out the honda accord WITH vs. WITHOUT the side curtain airbags. While side impacts are less common than front, and vehicles like SUV's and pickups put the driver's head above the typical bumper, the momentum of a side impact WILL drive your HEAD into the glass window - and given the choice, I'll pay pretty good cash to have my HEAD crashing into a soft inflatable pillow instead.
BUT - not $6000 which is how much more a V6 limited cost than an SR5....
Just one man's opinion ....
P.S. The crash photos on the above website are very cool ......
I have a 2005 4Runner V8 Limited 2WD on order for my fiancé. They say it will be produced in November and delivered to us sometime in December (whether toward the beginning or the end, they don't know yet). What that means is that if any of you are considering waiting for the '05 models, you can expect to get your car in December.
We ordered an '05 partly because we wanted the VVT-i i-Force V8, but also because we both had no desire for a sunroof (extra cost, loss of headroom, and possible maintenance frustrations later on in life since we plan on keeping this thing until it dies).
with the new V-8 engine. I actually am considering ordering a 2005
4-WD 4-Runner Sport with the V-8 engine. I would be interested in your opinion (or the opinion of others) regarding the new V-8.
I believe the torque goes from 320 to 330 and the horsepower goes from 235 to 270. Although I don't live in a large metropolitan area, I do live near and use an interstate highway frequently,
usually for just a few miles each time. The interstate runs right through the city I live in and it is necessary to use it to get around town efficiently. Therefore, if there is a significant increase in acceleration power in the new V-8, it would be very important to me. I would be interested in an explanation of the advantages of the VVT on the new V-8. I also want to obtain side and curtain airbags on the Sport 4-Runner I will purchase. Apparently, side and curtain airbags rarely come with the Sport. That fact is another reason why ordering a vehicle coudl be the appropriate choice for me. Thanks.
First about the history of the i-Force V8.
The i-Force is a beautiful engine even without VVT-i. It may not make class-leading power, but it is by far the most solidly constructed and (I and many others predict) the most durable V8 truck motor on the market today. Plus I'd go so far as to say that it's about the smoothest and quietest truck motor out today.
It's actually 99%+ identical to the V8s currently used in all of the Lexus SUVs, and made in the same factory in Japan. The basic architecture is closely related to the V8s found in Lexus' cars such as the 4.0L V8 in my 99 GS400 or the 4.3L V8 in the 2001+ Lexus vehicles. There are some pretty significant differences, though, as well. One of them being VVT-i, another being displacement, but others such as intake and exhaust ports and so on. But the thing that remains is that it's a motor that Toyota/Lexus has spent a lot of time and experience obsessing over and has spared no cost in developing and building it.
(part two of the question at hand)
All engines have cams. Cams have profiles, which effectively means what timing they use to open and close the exhaust and intake valves. This may sound pretty minor, but by modifying the profile of a cam you can make the same motor very "torquey" (low-RPM off the line grunt, useful for towing and for being able to leave casually from a stoplight without revving the motor very high. But at the same time, the more torque-biased the cam profile, the more the motor will loathe high-RPM and thus feel 'out of breath' when revved), or you can make it very "peaky" (which will give a significant bias toward high-rpm horsepower, but will give a pronounced lack of torque, thus causing the motor to have to be revved up quite a bit even in day-to-day casual driving).
The old-school solution most manufacturers used with this dilema was to base cam profiles on the type of car they were put in: In trucks you'd see low RPM torque-biased profiles and in compact sporty cars you'd see high RPM horsepower-biased profiles. In "in-between" vehicles such as vans, family sedans, and so on, you'd most often see neutral cam profiles that gave about as much bias toward torque as they did to horsepower, thus giving those cars a more comfortable "flat" power delivery that would be usable in any situation.
You may also notice that in race cars and such, they always seem to be idling rough... some to the point (on some drag racing cars and such) that the driver has to constantly give it gas to keep it from dying. This isn't necessarily the sign of an unhealthy engine, it's just a very radical cam profile with high lift and high duration. This makes more power all across the board as long as the heads and valves of the motor are able to take advantage of their extra breathing room. But at the same time it makes the motor run much rougher.
Then came "VTEC" (Honda), "VVT" (Toyota), and some other companies had other names for the same basic concept using slightly different methods of implementation. This new technology in general allowed the use of two seperate cam profiles in the same motor. Thus a manufacturer could put in a low RPM torque-biased cam profile that was designed to automatically switch at, say, 3500 RPM, to a high RPM horsepower-biased cam profile. It's not always this simple depending on the engineer's intentions, but that's the basic conceptual benefit. Thus trucks using VVT could now breath much better at high-RPM, and 4-cylinder compact cars didn't have quite as much of a lack of low-RPM grunt (although many still do because of their small displacement, it is at least not as 'bad' as it used to be).
The newest technology (i-VTEC and VVT-i) just builds upon the same concept of 2 switchable cam profiles, except it adds "intelligence" (that's what the 'i' stands for). The intelligence adds the ability for the vehicle's onboard computer to monitor all sorts of things such as throttle position, RPM, rate of acceleration, traction control, and driver's habits to determine when the best time for the cam profile shift is, or if it would really make sense at all (for example, if you are accelerating moderately and the computer knows it's going to be, at the current rate of acceleration, shifting at 3600 RPM, it probably won't bother to shift the cam profile toward high-RPM and then shift it back again after the transmission shifts only for 100 RPM of benefit). Sort of the same way as electronic throttle control in toyota vehicles already manages throttle position for both the transmission's shift points as well as the traction control system.
The end result of the addition of VVT-i to any motor is mainly that the motor makes up for its weaker trait. Thus giving a smoother, flatter power curve, better overall performance no matter what, often times slightly improved gas milage, and sometimes a slightly smoother running motor if the original single cam profile was more radical than the VVT-i cam profiles were.
In the i-Force's case, it was a truck motor and thus was very torque-biased. Because of this, its already high 320 pounds of torque was only increased by another 10, as the new profile really couldn't get all that much more torque-biased than the original profile already was. But the original cam profile definitely had issues in the horsepower department... thus why the horsepower figures previously were in the 235-240 range at a slightly lower than ideal RPM (peak horsepower was very noticably before actual redline). The addition of VVT-i will boost the power figures to 278 horsepower (I know others here have heard 270, but I've heard 278.. not sure if my info is accurate, though. They may just rate it at 270 and rate the GX470 at 280 for marketing purposes), with the powerband being much flatter and continuing on to 2 or 3 hundred RPM closer to redline.
The first dealer I talked to told me the best they could do was 800 over invoice. But that was without negotiating or anything. I ended up getting it for about 1100 under invoice when I ordered it, but I ordered from a fleet sales guy that I know personally... that sort of deal is not accessible normally unless you know somebody that does fleet sales personally. From what I've heard the best deal you should shoot for at a dealership is between 200 under invoice and around 500 over invoice. Anywhere in that range you're doing good.
Bob
So with all of that mentioned, 4WD would do nothing but:
Increase the price of the vehicle
Decreased the gas milage
Worsened the acceleration, handling, and braking capabilities somewhat
Added a maintenance and future reliability issue
So yeah, then you ask "why not just get a unibody SUV"? Well because she decided she wanted something bigger than the Highlander, and I don't particularly care for the Honda Pilot, so our only real options past that were body on frame. I like body on frame anyway because of the fact that you can beat on it all day long and it loves it. We both also like the way it feels when driving in an SUV. And lastly, she has been slightly accident prone in the past, and I like the fact that body on frame vehicles are much less prone to structural/irreversable damage when in minor and even moderate accidents.
Oh, and if you couldn't tell already, I love the i-Force. I prefer it 10x over the V6 offerings in the unibody SUVs.
Increase the price of the vehicle
True.
Decreased the gas mileage.
Only very slightly
Worsened the acceleration, handling, and braking capabilities somewhat.
Again, only very slightly
Added a maintenance and future reliability issue.
Not true, especially not true being a Toyota.
On the flip side, a 2WD SUV (of any brand) will bring in a much lower resale value upon trade-in. In addition, a 2WD SUV will be much harder to sell, if you decide to sell it yourself. There's a tiny market for that kind of vehicle, as compare to a 4WD SUV. So whatever money you save up front at the time of purchase, you will most likely lose at the time of trade-in.
I wasn't thinking of car-based SUVs, like the Highlander, but car wagons (Legacys/Outbacks, Mazda 6, Passat, Volvos, etc.)—all of which will drive much better than any truck-based SUV.
I can understand the appeal of the Toyota V8.
Bob
I don't believe that for a moment. Even if you don't have snow, some of those owners will use their 4Runners off road, or at least on muddy roads and/or trails. Even if they don't go off-road, many will buy 4WD, just in case...
Bob
Even things that appear minor such as 1 MPG worse with gas, amortized over 100,000 miles (and actually I plan to keep it longer), this equals over $650 @ 2/gal (and we all know gas will be going higher). If you figure the same thing happens with your struts/brakes/etc to where they have to be replaced slightly sooner, the money starts adding up out of nowhere.
I don't know about where you live, but here in Memphis, TN the extra money spent on 4WD on a new purchase will depreciate at just about the same rate as the rest of the money spent. So if the 4Runner depreciates 50%, so will the 4WD.
In other words, it's not an investment item.
If there is such a tiny market for 2WD SUVs then why are the majority of new 4Runners sold in my area 2WD? That makes no sense at all.
There is added maintenance and reliability issues with 4WD in any vehicle, especially if you're talking about keeping one as long as we plan on keeping this 4Runner. True with Toyota it's less of a question mark, but it is there nonetheless. The more parts you have to break, the greater chance you have of something breaking. And 4WDs do usually involv a bit of extra maintenance such as the transfer case fluid and a couple of extra points that need to be routinely greased for factory-smooth operation (just ask the 4WD GX470 owners about a binding issue they have where they'll just be sitting at a stoplight and *bam* feels like they've been rear ended. Nope, they just need to get regreased)
And car-based wagons are not all that different from car-based SUVs. Many of them even share the same chassis and drivetrain. It's just a matter of if people like to sit up a little higher or have a little more headroom/cargo room (which isn't always the case when comparing unibody SUVs to unibody wagons, but is most common none the less).
Body on frame definitely has a more of a 'wet noodle' feeling than unibody due to its inherently lower torsional and bending rigidity and lower natural resonent frequency. But at the same time it has the advantage of being 'disconnected' from the actual structure and cabin of the vehicle, thus meaning when you hit a bump or irregularity, it is the frame that is absorbing the impact rather than the entire car as you see with unibody.
Body on frame definitely makes the ocupants feel chassis flex moreso, but to say unibody is a "better" ride is like saying apples are better than oranges. Some people flat-out prefer body on frame (ask anyone who insists on driving a truck or truck-based SUV or one of the big-body cars (Lincolns/Cadillacs/Crown Vics/etc).
I say this as someone who owns a 99 Lexus GS400 (unibody) and who recently sold a 2000 Chevy Silverado. The ride of the two was completely opposite, but I enjoy(ed) both in their own seperate rights, just as I enjoyed driving the 2004 4Runner they had at the dealer's lot.
As to car-based SUVs vs. car-based wagons, the big difference is center of gravity, which is higher in the SUVs. So yes, there is a considerable difference in terms of handling.
You know the market better in the south than I do, but here in Maryland 2WD SUVs are pretty scarce, and certainly are a liability in terms of resale.
Bob
If the price is a bit of a problem, for some, I would opt for the 2004 over the 2005 models. The 5-speed in the V6 or the VVT-i in the V8 is very tempting, but my feeling is that because of that, there will not be much of an incentive to mark them down, at least for the first year anyway. Judging from the forums I've been on, there seems to be a lot of pent up demand for the 2005's. I think there are some very good buys out there on the 2004’s for that same reason.
I should have known you knew our inventory and demographics better then I did.
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And, to Raider, don't give up on that side air bag/air curtain demand, buddy. I am holding firm and giving all my area dealers hell for not having more 4Runners with that option, especially since so many have a stupid extra mile option protecting paint and seats instead (and it costs more than side air bags). Did any of you happen to notice that when the Insurance Institute side crashed a RAV4 without side airbags, it got a POOR rating and indicated the driver faced near certain death? When Toyota asked them to retest the RAV-4 and sent them a model WITH side airbags, it got the HIGHEST rating; in fact, it got a BEST PICK. So I went to BuyAToyota.com and checked to see how many RAV4s in the entire Gulf State region had the side airbags/air curtain option. Want to guess? Out of over 200, NOT A SINGLE ONE. I think Toyota should be boycotted for putting a death trap like that on the market while not offering consumers the life saving option (which is apparently an option in name only).
If you dont want a "deathtrap", simply dont buy a RAV4 without the curtains. For what its worth, both RAV4s w/ and w/o curtains are readily available in the Northeast. You have the unfortunate condition of being relegated to the horrid business practices of Southeast Toyota (SET) Distriubution.
~alpha
That could also be interpreted that Toyota is having trouble selling 2WD 4Runners, and that 4WD 4Runners are hard to keep on the lot, hence so few...
Bob <playing the devil's advocate>
alpha01, it is great that your distributor has a conscience up there in the northeast, but I don't think it is "drama" to be ticked at a vehicle manufacturer that knows it can build a much safer vehicle, be it a Camry, RAV4 or
4Runner and neglects to do so. Your "don't buy a RAV4" comment is shortsighted and is not the way to improve life on the planet.