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then.
There was a guy that ran at the track with a Buick GS that ran in the high 13's without headers,just screwing with the carb,dual exhaust,timing etc.His rear end didn't last long though,but that thing was strong,it ran 14.20's right off the showroom floor,spinning the hell out of the 70 series tires.
As far as the GNs and T-types:
It wasn't the Buick V6 engine itself,that was so good,it was the turbo attached to it!.The 4.3 they put in the T/As,Syclones and Typhoons were better yet!I wanted a Typhoon bad,my neighbors son had one,and I got to drive it once.There's a nearby 1/4 mile "finish line" painted on the road where the Belvedere blew the motor.The city keeps trying to remove it,but it somehow keeps reappearing!I ran that Typhoon on it,and I'm guessing it was about a 13.8-14 flat.Fast enough for a stock Jimmy!
But in an F body,as far as I'm concerned,the choice comes down to two,a 454 Chevy,or a 455 SD Pontiac.If money doesn't matter,I would take the SD,if money is a concern,then the 454,parts are cheaper,and a lot more plentiful.But the SD was more impressive to me.But then,the 400 with the 6-71 I rode in was pretty good too!
That being said I guess that my main requisites for this list would be factory power,balanced with long term dependability.
As for the Chrysler Hemi I think it is safe to assume that no engine recieves the kind of reputation it has without being able to back it up in some manner.
Finally the biggest thing that impresses my with all muscle cars is the fact that they could run in the 13's or 14's(depending on which magazine writer you believe)with skinny little bias ply tires that produce less grip than the tires on your boat trailer.Couple that with the fact that most manufacturers made a couple of trannies that serviced all of the cars they made,not tuned to the engines they were hooked to,and the standards shifted about like a modern dump truck,and you realize that these engines had alot of high hurtles to conquer compared to your modern day cars.This fact alone makes any old high performance V8 a winner in my book.You just cant beat the sound of a real vintage american V8,the rumble,the vibration and the mechanical presence is music to my soul.
Thanks for posting everyone.
Dunno if anybody's mentioned the Buick V8s. Their 350 was about 100# lighter than the Chevy, and their 455 was about 150# lighter than the 454. They're good engines, very stout and easy to work on. The Caddy 472 is another alternative to the 454, and is more compact. There are also plentyof hop-up parts for it now, and most haven't been beat on the way the Chevies were.
I know, not cheap and loaded with high tech gadgets but you can still get a nice rumble with the right exhaust system.
And how about a tweaked Northstar in the current malibu to give the old Nova SS a run for it's money (not to mention a record amount of torque steer).
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Don't get me wrong, these cars were fast, and they looked awesome. But they were a ripoff; you could do better with your money. If you take a look at some of the road test from that time, they handled terrible. That Hemi weighed over 700 pounds, and there wasn't much car behind the rear wheels to balance it out. And those Mopar E-bodies were porkers, weighing 200-300 pounds more than a big block '70 stang or camaro. For the money, I think a Mopar man would do much better with a Road Runner. A Hemi RR in the post coupe body would only weigh about 100 pounds more, and have much more weight over the rear wheels. It would have a less restrictive exhaust system, a usable back seat, and a huge trunk, too. Road tests bear me out; the 1/4 mile times for the E-body Hemis were no better than those for B body Hemis. And the handling of B body cars was often praised by the testers. And no, you can't bring up that 13.1 time that HotRod/CarCraft got from a Hemi Cuda, they tweaked it, as they did to many of their test cars.
So what do you think, was the Hemi Cuda/Challenger a dud?
Besides, the Hemi Cuda was available in purple and other day-glo colors. Try that with your Boss 429 or SS 396.
These engines were in light Belvederes and Coronets (B-bodies), and this made these cars extremely fast. A friend of mine has a factory 426 Max Wedge '63 Plymouth Belvedere hardtop (black with red interior and pushbutton automatic). It's hard to believe this car came with factory headers with factory 3 inch exhaust with factory cut-outs. The crossram intake is also exotic, with one 4 barrel carburetor in one corner and another way in the other corner. This car is also supposed to have a 14.5 to 1 compression ratio from the factory. (I think its a Stage III)
Anyway, I thought that these engines should be mentioned due to their racing heritage as well as having two Beach Boys songs about them (Little Old Lady From Pasadena and Shutdown (even though the fuelie 327 beats the 413 in the song - I doubt it would happen in real life))
I remember a magazine article about a Max that came in an odd car. It seems an elderly couple came into a Dodge dealership wanting a tow vehicle for their travel trailer. I guess the saleman didn't know of the poor low end torque that comes with a Max Wedge, so they ordered their STATION WAGON with the most powerful engine on the option list. Great engine, but not for towing!
I wonder how many of these station wagons are out there.
One thing I find very funny is how much we car people are so hung up on how quick our cars can do the quarter.To say a car was .5 second quicker than another in the 1320 means nothing in the real world.I have spanked big blocks with my 318 Cuda,and have been spanked by V6's.I'm not John Force and most people on the road aren't either.On any given day a collection of twenty different cars could post twenty different times all with the same driver.
I am currently building a 440 for my Cuda for two reasons: I think it will be faster,and I cant afford a Hemi.I don't plan on driving 100 mph down Main St.,USA so I'm not too concerned with the handling,I just like to have my eyeballs pressed into the sockets for a couple of seconds.
All I can say about people who belittle the Hemi E-bodies,is they can talk all they want,but I bet most of them wouldn't turn down a Hemi E-body convertible.
Each car was tested bone stock with a driver, a 100 pound accelerometer (that's funny, when you consider today's G-Tech a-meter does more and weighs about a pound!), and a 2nd guy to run the accelerometer. They didn't generate the impressive 1/4 mile times you could find in other mags of the day, but they were more realistic and allowed valid comparisons to other models tested by the same magazine. Unfortunately, the mag wasn't around for long.
http://www.pacificcoast.net/~viwpc/quotes.htm
He wasn't always right, but he was always entertaining....he UNDERSTOOD what a critic really was supposed to be!
Actually, I said that kind of tongue-in-cheek. I rarely see Chevelles--or any '60s intermediates--on the road anymore, and there's no place in the Bay Area, except I guess Sears Point, to race legally. Big-block street cars are so rare these days that I can remember the last two I saw: a mint late-'60s 4-speed SS396 that I think wanted to race my GTP (would have but wife was in the car) and a '65 442.
Your comment about torque versus horsepower reminds me of the old controversy about whether the small-port or big-port heads were better for the street. The big-port solid lifter 396 was the one to order from the factory, when they would admit it was available, but supposedly the small-port engine was more livable with aftermarket cam and carburetion.
Ford's 451 Cleveland (I had one, always breaking, but maybe it was me?)
The older 460 (there's one in my '73 Mk. IV)
Chrysler's 440 (If they put it in the Coronet, how bad could it be?)
Cadillac's 500, and whatever big went into Buick/Olds/Pontiac's bigger cars, like an Electra, or Grandville, or 98.
I'm thinking of getting a new old car in a few years, and this will help me decide.
Thanks,
Seth
351C: the one exception, had lots of performance potential but came on the scene a little late. Made from '70-'74(?), when it was replaced by the 351M. No history of premature failure that I'm aware of.
460: really heavy, even for a big block. Some of the 429s were built for performance but really didn't do much (except the ultra-rare Boss).
440: 4-barrel version was a big-car engine, built more for torque than horsepower. Six-Pak was very strong.
Buick 455: short stroke, the GS versions were very strong, especially the Stage I.
Olds 455: long stroke, torquey. Some strong musclecar versions including the W30.
Pontiac 455: long stroke, kind of a boat anchor, only really strong version was the '73-4 Super Duty.
Cad 472-500: don't know much about it.
Of course, every engine has its fans, and I'll probably hear from all of them. But if you're buying a barge don't worry about what engine it's got. They're all good enough for that application.
As far as $ goes, I know it's not worth what I'm going to put in it (It's from a 78 Grand Marquis), but hey, I'm young, stupid, and love the car.
As far as a GTP goes, it's a bit lacking in the cylinder department, has the wrong wheels doing the work, and is dependent on the "iron lung" (I prefer my horsepower naturally aspirated) Besides, the car's looks are a little too mean for my tastes
The Windsor is a very durable small block and shares the great aftermarket for heads as it's smaller 289/302. It has a much beefier block and is an inch taller than the smaller 289/302 and has 3" mains that some engine builders don't like for sustained High RPM use. The 302/351 currently has an aftermarket that equals both in quantity and price of the small block Chevy.
Your 400M motor is considered a boat anchor(I'm sorry) but one good thing is it shares the trans bolt pattern AND same motor mounts as the 429/460. You can go to pick a part and get a 365 horsepower 460 out of a '69 Lincoln and it should bolt right into your Merc. for around $200 and a the cost of a mild rebuild.
Another couple of questions: Didn't Olds have a 429 or something? Maybe that was just a muscle car engine. And, finally: Suppose I go off my rocker and get one of the big AMC's (Matador/Ambassador?). What will I end up with enginewise? I'm not sure they ever made anything that quite qualified as a lux-barge.
P.S. Speedshift, performance is important too. I don't want to wind up with old ladies in Dodge Colts passing me on the right and giving me the finger