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Buick Lucerne: Engine & Performance
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Comments
Come on guys. they just started building the Lucerne 5 weeks ago. Let them get some time to build up some stock. GM gets a hot car and it is in short supply and people complain. GM has a slow moving car and people complain.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I assume you haven't driven a 3800 in a recent GM product. It's the torque for most people's driving that matters and that motor has a lot of torque at low speed. If may not be BMW territory for high speed sport shifting, but it's a great motor. It has been updated throughout it's life and vastly improved many times. Current improvements in the Series III includes an aluminum oil pan for stiffening the lower motor and reducing harmonic vibrations.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Eric”
I agree that a V8 with sufficient torque can be made to work well.
I currently drive a GM V8 with a 4 speed automatic – and I think it works very well, indeed. (2005 Grand Prix GXP, for those who care.)
From this perspective, I believe that there are 2 fundamental differences between the V8 A4 in mine and the Northstar V8 Lucerne.
1 – Weight. My GXP is somewhat smaller and somewhat lighter than the Lucerne V8. Now much that can be done about that.
2 – The GXP’s 5.3L V8 with ‘old tech’ OHV vs. the Lucerne’s Northstar V8
[[ Note on the gearing. The GXP and Lucerne V8 have similar final drive ratios and first & second gear ratios in trans. are also very close. ]]
The Bonne GXP used a very similar version of the Northstar and essentially the same 4T80 A4 trans. And it did not feel quick – and even with a 3.7 final drive ratio, it was not quick. C+D reported a 0 – 60 in 6.9 and a quarter in 15.4 at 91 MPH.
I can understand why the Bonne GXP developers chose the Northstar. That was the only V8 available in the GM “parts bin” at that time that was already engineered for FWD.
What I do not understand is why Buick would choose virtually this same powertrain combination, with a yet LESS aggressive final drive ratio for the Lucerne in 2006.
With the 5.3L V8 now re-engineered for FWD and with DoD, the choice of the Northstar makes no sense to me. The version used here (designated LD8) has less Torque available at every engine speed from 2,000 to over 5,000 RPM than the 5.3L LS4 V8. Approx. 25 to 35 LB-FT less. This is quite a significant difference.
I can only speculate that Buick Marketing believes their potential customers do not really care about acceleration – or they lost some internal GM fight and were forced to use this Northstar (without the VVT of the newest version) – perhaps because the tooling is in place and they have capacity to use up . . .
In any case, there is (was) what I’d consider a viable alternative that would have provided a more rewarding driving experience – from ‘off-the-shelf’ parts, now that there is a corporate V8 with more Torque engineered for FWD.
My ** guess ** is that with this V8 and everything else the same, this would have resulted in a low 6 second 0 – 60 and a Quarter Mile time in the high 14s. And identical EPA mileage ratings.
And that would have been reasonable acceleration performance - for this class.
Just 1 opinion.
- Ray
Ready (today) to test drive a supercharged V8 Lucerne . . .
If Microsoft has fewer items then needed for the market (XBox 360) and Ahonda has fewer Civics 06 than needed for the market, how are you able to critize GM for producing the cars only as fast as they car get them down the line?
Doesn't make sense.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
As for the NAV system, that seems to be the XBox for some people. I don't want one; won't buy one built in. Read the update costs for some other brands that push them. Hundreds to get new maps for either HON or Toy in their groups. I'll buy a Garmin or other if I do decide I need one, which isn't very likely in my case.
I can understand a few people who drive a lot in cities and need to find their way might benefit. In my own view it's the new toy that's high cost to install. I have OnStar and that's enough of a pain.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Just trying to figure out what you mean by this. I looked at the build, sales and production data. Lucerne started build in November and is now building at a almost full capacity at 150K per year. So they were able to get up to full line rate in less than one month. This is pretty fast. The inventory as of 12/1 was 5900 which is about 1/3 of what should be optimum. But they are at full rate which means they should be able to fill the pipeline quickly. There is always a lag getting full inventory out there. No one says "do not sell any new model untill the pipeline is full". Perhaps you are referring to the start of advertising? this is always a tough call. If you start to early there is great angst for buyers who cannot find the product (you?) and if you start to late stock builds up and it looks like you have a failed launch of a new car and you can lose momentum and therefore sales. you also need to start a bit earlier if you have a new model name to get the name recognition early.
I think advertising just started 2 weeks ago on the Apprentice which seems just about right. You are one of the first to buy and could not have gotten one much earlier since they are really only in the dealers as of 12/1 in any volume.
As far as colors most manufacturers initroduce colors one at a time so that they can get each color right before going to the next one. Need to assure proper match between the body painted parts and supplier painted parts (fascias, etc.)
I guess you were writing this as I answered. Few car models are brought in at the traditional July/August timeframe. Companies plan their intros to level out their resources today. If everyone brought out their new models on August 1 the tooling industry would have huge lulls and upticks that would drive them crazy and costs up. Same with the OEM's. The engineering/test/development resources need to be leveled out. The Lucerne was brought out about 3 months after the DTS. The large trucks are 3 months after the LuCernes. The G6 convertible is coming out at it's prechosen position. The Lucerne was mot late or early. it came out right on time.
Now whether or not coming out at the traditional July/August timeframe would have helped sales? Perhaps a little. But the vehicle will be in production for the same amount of time whether it started July or November.
I'd rather get more comfort and safety features for less than that.
Secondly, a faster car off the line is safer when merging or when getting back to the highway from the shoulder.
The fact that a $35000+ car cannot accelerate to 60MPH in 6s indicates that it's underpowered for its category, for the competition does.
I have driven both engines – and I own a 5.3. So I ** could ** be biased. But I see no NVH advantage to the Northstar over the LS4.
Now, I am on record as having very high respect for the Northstar technology. And the latest VVT version is quite enjoyable to drive, at least with what I consider a ‘reasonable’ final drive ration. But, particularly in LD8 form, as currently released in the Lucerne, it does not have the sort of low end torque that some here seem to expect.
While I will grant that there is no ** need ** for any car to accelerate 0 – 60 in 6 seconds, having recently driven a couple of rentals with 0 – 60 capabilities in the (my estimates here) 8 to 10 second range, I certainly feel safer and much more confident driving in Metro Atlanta traffic with my car capable of 0 – 60 in approx. 5.7. I find merging into dense but fast moving traffic to be much easier with a deep reserve of accelerative power. And the ability to deal with most any traffic situation in a (perceived) effortless manner appeals to me. A lot.
But then I don’t believe that anyone really ** needs ** a Lucerne V8 of any specification.
I think that we are well beyond what people need here – and the questions become what we want – and what we are willing to pay for . . .
But I could be wrong.
- Ray
Admitted Torque Addict (is there a 12 step program somewhere for me???)
I currently drive a GM V8 with a 4 speed automatic – and I think it works very well, indeed. (2005 Grand Prix GXP, for those who care.)
The key is getting the transmission to perform to match the capabilities of the engine. I am presently driving a 2006 DTS Performance version. It of course has the 4-speed with the Northstar.
Off the line, it is OK but not ligtning fast. But when doing 50-65 mph and romp it, it goes like stink. This is because it does a 4-2 downshift. Very smooth shift. Not a 4-3-2 but actually a 4-2. I have driven 3 late model Corvettes and it feels almost that good.
Point is, they have it set up for useful passing when not on an interstate. I suspect the Buick has the same set up. I really see no need for the new 6 speed transmissions these cars will be getting. A 5 speed to get a little better response off the line would have been totally adequate. But the Europeans have 6-speeds so the marketing thing is to follow along regardless of whether it is really providing a benefit or not.
One other disadvantage of 6-speeds is that when making shifts, you don't transmit full torque to the ground and so additional shifts can actually cost you time for full throttle accaleration.
My Oldsmobile diesel could do the quarter mile in about a half minute.
So where the heck are they??? I can't find a dealer in Montana, or Wyoming that has one?
It's not is "short" supply. It's in "NO" supply!
Why did they start advertising it, if they couldn't ship it?
Very very poor marketing. I'm going for a Toyota. They are in stock!
PS I just went back and re-read some of the other posts.
Everyone else seems to wonder why one (me) would be
upset that GM started make the Lucerne late. I don't
care when they started making them. I am just upset
because they started advertising them (requesting
John Q Public to COME ON IN and take a look) AT WHAT!
That is my problem. If they had started advertising
them when they were in the dealerships to sell. I would
have no complaint at all.
But GM (with it's advertising) invited me in to look
at a car THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO SHOW ME! Like my time
isn't worth anything? I went three times and no cars.
That is all the time I'll spend chasing a NO SHOW!
Sorry GM, Better seal the borders, because YOUR workers
are going to need the farm harvesting jobs next year!
Grimes motor in Helena has 1, Bennett Motor in Great Falls has one. Butte Auto center has 2. Big Wyoming Buick has two. Newcastle Motors has 2 in Casper. I only checked for XL's. There are more spread out that I will not list here. It looks like Buick did a good job of evenly distributing them in your area.
Now there are not as many as there normally are but they have only been building them a month.
Why did they start advertising them? To sell them. They are available if you do a simple Buick website search. Obviously it is working since you are "looking".
I'm sure whatever GM did, they would have been criticized for having done it that way in these discussions. So I'm happy to see they have a broad price range car to temporarily replace the two they killed which were both great cars.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That is my problem. If they had started advertising
them when they were in the dealerships to sell. I would
have no complaint at all.
But GM (with it's advertising) invited me in to look
at a car THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO SHOW ME! Like my time
isn't worth anything? I went three times and no cars.
That is all the time I'll spend chasing a NO SHOW!
Sorry GM, Better seal the borders, because YOUR workers
are going to need the farm harvesting jobs next year!
Funny thing is, chev isn't even using the 3800 anymore. I'd be ok with the new 3.9L as a base for the Lucerne, but the 3.6L should probably be the base.
The 3.9 LZ9 has higher peak HP & TQ (242 \ 242 vs the 3800’s 200 \ 230), somewhat higher Torque at every point on the curve above 1500 RPM, substantially higher peak HP and a wider rpm range.
Though it may be more expensive, the numbers suggest to me that it is “better”, from this standpoint.
As someone else has suggested, the 3800 probably costs much less to produce.
And interesting choice by GM here – and we’ll see where sales go . .
- Ray
A “Torque Snob” – wanting (way) more than 242, and thus more interested in the V8 version . . .
~alpha
What engine dates back to 1962? The 3.8 has undergone several and important changes. The motor isn't the same as it was before 1993.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Although OHV is not necessarily bad, in this day and age 4 valves per cylinder and variable valve timing are must-haves, which incidentally are easier to implement with OHC. GM has such an engine already.
GM decided to not put it in the Lucerne because it's counting on the typical Buick customer not noticing it. IOW, GM can forget about attracting younger buyers. These will find their needs met elsewhere.
BTW, I wouldnt count on this engine being in this car until 2008. If extra capacity for the 3.6 becomes available (and it should in 2006) I would expect it to go into the Lucerne. Within two years I expect either three engine choices for Lucerne, or the total replacement of the 3800. If the 3800 is going to soldier on, I think it will survive as the base engine for Lacrosse and Grand Prix.