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Comments
If I bought a new 3-series (or any new car for that matter), I'd want to keep it for many years to come. 15,000 mile oil changes and "lifetime" transmission and differential fluids are not conducive to long-term reliability.
I think it also sabotages the CPO program. Would you buy a used car with 42,000 miles on the odo knowing that it's only had 2 oil changes and no tranny/diff services?
But less weight!?
I guess that is progress!
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
Gradually??? Those of us who used to do nearly all maintenance (including engine rebuilds) are now reduced to oil/filter/brake pad changes. When Craftsman wants to sell tools before Christmas, they don't show people working on today's cars -- they're always older vehicles, where you can actually get at the fasteners, and they're made of metal. Those days are gone.
All else needs to be outsourced to "worthy" sorts with the appropriate computer interfaces. The good news is that there are many independent (read honest) mechanics who will do a fine job -- I can't do much of it anymore, but I'm happy to pay them.
The dealers, on the other hand. . .
BMW said vendor built a mess of bad sensors.They are replacing with a sensor with a certain build code laser engraved on it.
Mind if I ask where the dealership that is getting these sensors "with a certain build code laser engraved on it" is located? I'm in Massachusetts, but want to advise my local guys about this availability.
Even Shipo changes way more frequently than BMW recommends. I wonder if Dinan can install a dip stick?
Regards,
OW
Well, I think that needs to be qualified. My first BMW (a 1999 328i) was one of the first 15,000 mile OCI BMWs to hit our shores. For the forty some thousand miles that I had that car I relied on the dealer to do the ~15,000 mile oil changes as requested by the car itself. When I turned the car in I was, ummmm, NOT impressed with the condition of the engine. A quick peek inside the cam cover showed more deposits and varnish than our old 1998 minivan with over 130,000 miles on it. That and the oil had that old Pennsylvania Grade Crude smell of paraffin (leading me to believe that my dealer had use bulk Quaker State or Pennzoil instead of the far more expensive BMW oil). Barf.
At that time I also heard of a class-action law suit against a large number of BMW dealerships for not using the BMW required synthetic oil in these cars. Made sense to me as my car didn't seem as if it had had a fully synthetic oil in it for the full duration. Was my dealership one of those named in the suit? Don't know. Did my dealership use synthetic oil that met the BMW LL-01 oil spec? Don't know that either.
Regardless, when I got my 530i, I bought a few filters and a couple of cases of Mobil 1 0W-40 and started doing mid-term oil changes. Were it that I was to own a late model BMW out of warranty I would most likely go say 12,000 miles on Mobil 1 0W-40 and then send it out for Used Oil Analysis (UOA). Assuming that everything looked good and there was some life in it still (and I see no reason why it wouldn't), I would most likely move to 15,000 oil changes.
As a general rule, I'm a very trusting kind of guy; however, I don't trust nobody to do nuthin wit my wheels. ;-) Said another way, as long as someone else is turning a wrench on my ride, I'm going to err on the extreme side of caution.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Our oil sensor warning has now gone on, and stayed on, for the 4th time. Rather than begin a Lemon Law proceeding as we are now entitled to do, we are taking the car in for a new oil sensor, because our dealer has told me that the new (properly functioning) sensors are in stock -- and because we love the car aside from this. But, what's true about the "new" sensors? Are they on the shelves, or just in R&D?
Either way, it's an improvement over the denial of a broader problem which characterized their previous attitude (not that they called to tell us of the change to new sensors, though). Even after three previous failures, they just waited silently for us to report another failure and make another trip to the repair shop.
In my view, this history of problems should be brought to the attention of the appropriate federal agency and the company admonished at least to notify its customers.
According to my local BMW dealer, BMW has begun distributing different replacement oil sensors from a new supplier, but it has been allocating them in small amounts. (My dealership's service manager says that he has 5 or 6 customers with this problem.)
What are the identities of the "old" and "new" suppliers? In what way are the parts different? What do BMW AG, or BMW NA, have to say about this problem, overall? I dunno. Info from a local service manager is not exactly from the horse's mouth, but at least it's coming from some part of the horse.
These decisions, like "Sorry - Run Flat Only" that need to be include on the Chief of Engineering's performance review as a "Needs Improvement" regarding decision making skill (along with the Marketing President).
Regards,
OW
This, combined with the run-flats, are the two major reasons I'm not counting the days until I get myself a 3. Rather, I'm waiting until the car I'm driving does something really, really awful. Each month I save more money, which I guess I'll eventually spend on a replacement vehicle . . . because I'll have to (sort of) rather than because I can't wait to.
No dipstick? Give me a break.
Fortunately, these small issues in no way even come close to outweighing the overall fantastic experience of driving this car and all the great functionality it includes. Or the nearly constant compliments and stares from other drivers. Drive the car. I had a perfectly functional and reliable POS '96 Volvo wagon that I sold. My quality of drive time has vastly improved. Then again, I don't drive and evaluate cars based on ability to move from point a to point b at the lowest cost.
Just my humble opinion... once you see / drive one you will be hooked.
Oil warning light comes on, regarding which the manual states you had better take the car in immediately for service. (So, what are you going to do...ignore the warning? Try explaining that when you submit your warranty claim!)
Then, although the manual also warns ominously about not overfilling, the jolly service manager says, "Well, let's just try putting in a quart of oil and see if that will turn the light off....Hmmm, it doesn't go off, so, let's try replacing the sensor....I'll call Parts to see if we have any....Do you need a ride somewhere?"
Love it or not, at some point you've got to say, "No mas!", because it may not be about just driving from point a to point b, but it's also not supposed to have a regular intermediate repair stop in the middle.
I guess they are anticipating the hydrogen 7 series in the old gasoline engines by omitting the cheap check system.
Regards,
OW
Best Regards,
Shipo
So, if my interpretation is accurate, then the first question you need an answer for is: Have you been given one of the recent replacement sensors? (or are they just stringing you along with yet another older inadequate one while they await their full quota of good ones?)
If the answer that they give you is anything other than, "Yes, the new non-defective one," then please consider posting a further message/report here, so that any variations in the explanations coming from the company will all be out in the open for customers like you and me.
Regarding your "When is enough?" question, for us that is TWO questions -- one practical and one legal.
Legal: I don't know what state you live in, and can't offer you legal advice; but, where I live, there's a Lemon Law which provides that three FAILED attempts to repair the same defect justify a claim that the manufacturer (not the dealer) take the car back. If you know any lawyers where you live, ask one. Or, run a web search for "[YOUR STATE] and 'Lemon Law']", or contact your Secretary of State's (or consumer affairs) office and ask them.
Practical: Do you love the car otherwise, as we do? Then, try to get this problem corrected with the new replacement part, and hope that puts an end to it.
Good luck!
You've said it better and more simply than I did, and I agree with your approach, as long as OUR sensor doesn't fail again soon ;-)
But, although I admire your optimism, I don't completely agree with the "trying their darnedest" view, nor with any "blame the third-party supplier" explanation that they may be offering. Here's my cranky opinion: BMW's imprimatur is on the car and these components, with all of their technical sophistication, regardless of the original source. BMW offers the technology; we pay for it; and we're entitled to more than a series of warranty shop visits.
Further, while it can be costly to do so, BMW has not exactly been forthcoming and candid about this problem. Not that this is the most dangerous of all possible defects (and I'd probably experience more defects and maybe worse handling with another make of car), but we have never heard from the company, so to date no formal notice has issued to buyers; we haven't seen any acknowledgement of a defect at all; no shop advisory has been shared with us; certainly no recall. We didn't even get a consistent story, and along the timeline I think that the company MUST HAVE known more about this problem than we were being told. Yes, in our case, they've honored their warranty obligations so far (what alternative do they have?), but we were kept in the dark, while we drove back and forth repeatedly to the dealer, and we were fobbed off twice with defective replacement parts. That, to me is not "doing your darnedest." It's disappointing.
As for my "doing their darnedest" comment, could it be that I was a little too free with my language? Yup. That said, it seems to me that it is a long and very convoluted road between someone here in the U.S. connecting the dots and saying, "Hey! I think I see a pattern developing here" and someone at BMW in Munich saying "Ach der lieber, ve haff a problem mit der Americanish oil zenzing devizez." Until then the forensic work cannot even begin to determine the cause of the problem, unfortunately, in the meantime, many more cars have suffered a failure.
With the analysis underway, all smoking guns are looked at and one by one discarded until the culprit is found. And more sensors have failed. Then they need to figure out what happened, or better said, what changed. After all, the sensors in the early E90s seem to be operating perfectly well, however, later models are dropping like flies. With the problem finally identified, production line changes are most likely required by the third party supplier to bring the part back into spec, and that assumes that the problem didn't start with a design change back at BMW. Meanwhile even more sensors have failed. With the changes finally in place and the manufacture of the new parts ramping up to max production volumes, the factory AND the service pipelines need to be purged of the defective parts and then resupplied with the new parts, and this can take weeks at the bare minimum, months most likely. While still more sensors fail.
The above story is as old as mass production, problems like the above existed LONG before the E90 came out, and if you read some WWII history, problems like this plagued all combatants during the war, and often times at very critical times where the want of a part or two meant that one side or the other would lose a battle they should have won.
Could BMW have done a better job of communicating to the field what the problem was and what the time frames were? Most certainly. Would such communications have delayed the repair of even a single car? Probably not. Is there a car you'd rather be driving were it that the oil sensor wasn't an issue on your car? Only you can answer that one. ;-)
FWIW, BMW isn't the only manufacturer that suffers from field problems and lack of communications. Back in 1998, when the (then) new Lexus GS was just hitting our roads, Lexus went though a similar problem with the front suspension of those cars, however, that one did affect the safety of the car. Even still, owners were told nothing at all while their cars sat waiting for a resolution, or were accused of damaging the cars through mistreatment. In the end, there were a number of cases where Lexus either refused to repair/replace the cars or offered to field weld suspension and frame parts back together. One of the guys who was posting here in the TownHall back then went through not one but two GS430s (he was able to get Lexus to buy back the first one), and was left high and dry on his second one. In desperation he traded that turkey in on a 540i 6-Speed, made a few posts about how wonderful his new car was, and then we never heard from him again. Too busy driving and having a grand time I guess. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
1. Upon Strike Three, I give it to my lawyer to invoke Lemon rule.
2. I got to drive over 1,000 miles with a 330i and about 200 miles with a 525i so no inconvenience. Now I now the difference in the 5er.
3. I get to give this car back in less than 2 years. What, me worry?
My take is as the technology advances, even the good manufacturers can not keep up with Six Sigma quality metrics, let alone the ones coming to the party extremely late and no cake left to eat read: bleeding).
So I decided to switch to leasing for the remainder of my days on the good ole' US highway system!
Happy Motoring!
Regards,
OW
I really appreciated your post. I think you are very knowledgeable, admirably tolerant of your fallible fellow humans -- a trait which I would love to emulate, and wise beyond your years -- unless you're old as Yoda.
Thanks very much again for your comments.
I guess the process of maturing from a (very) angry young man to a wizened old greybeard is complete. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
Advice to BMW (Woodcliff Lake or Munich) from the peanut gallery: I have a revolutionary idea that will solve your oil sensor woes, either replace or augment said sensor with a (user and dealership friendly) "Dip Stick".
Best Regards,
Shipo
Do you have this option??
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
Just in case...
Regards,
OW
I'm also wondering if any of the current crop of intermittent warning lights can be associated with cold weather, as ours were at one time.
I just got a call from the dealer to make an appointment as the new and redesigned sensors had arrived.
What disturbs me the most about this problem is not so much the bad sensor but that there is no dipstick to physically confirm the problem. The omission of a dipstick ranks up there with the omission of a temperature gauge both of which pale in comparison to the lack of the ability to store any sort of spare tire. I don't know who should be held in greater contempt: the arrogant designers at BMW or the fools who empower them by continuing to purchase their cars. I know the answer because I still love my car!
But, don't you love having all this high end stuff, and the technician says, Just ignore it.
My strategy, although it costs more, is to lease. I believe the velocity of change will no doubt increase, so as long as the future vehicles are backed by the mfg. like BMW, it makes sense to me to rent and experience the changes. If 50-75% of the new stuff is "a better idea", that's a win/win in my book.
Regards,
OW
Did you buy your car or lease it?
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
But there's certainly nothing wrong with an engine burning a bit of oil. In fact, I'd rather prefer that mine did burn some...maybe 1/4 quart every 3K-5K. I like a bit of oil up there in the valve area....but not too much of course.
A condensation problem? That is so infinitesimally unlikely I don't even want to begin to calculate the odds. Why? Simple, EVERY engine has condensation in it. Granted an engine abandoned in the middle of the Sahara Desert in 1934 has precious little of it, but the fact is, engines, especially ones in frequent use, have LOTS of condensation inside. Errr, except when they are up to operating temperatures, then they have lots of steam in them, steam that WILL become condensation once the engine is turned off and starts cooling.
- Blaming the problem on condensation is silly.
- Blaming the problem in sensors that cannot withstand typical condensation levels isn't silly (but may not be correct).
- Blaming the problem on a manufacturing defect or a design flaw isn't silly either.
So, what's the real problem?
I'm afraid that we're going to have to wait to find out who-done-it, or more accurately, what-done-it.
Best Regards,
Shipo
2. remove sensor
3. Blow compressed gas through sensor to remove condensation ( They seem to think that moisture came from cars sitting ( until they were sold)
4. Put same sensor back and replace O Ring
5. Add new oil ( not to full level) to car
6. Replace Oil Filter
7. Run engine for about 20 minutes.To check sensor
8. Add remaining amount of oil
I did lease this car and as I stated earlier between valvetronic issues, computer problem, and now sensor the car has been at the service center for 28 days since the Dec. 27th delivery. The dealer assured me that I will be getting back 2 full lease payments. I have every reason to believe him. I will keep you posted on the sensor issue(if it occurs again) and their promise of 2 Lease payments
Jeez, what a #$%^ing joke!
I hope this problem costs BMW a ton of money. Maybe they'll learn their lesson and return the dipsticks before I'm ready to buy a new car.
Best Regards,
Shipo
If the engine in my E90 can be retro fitted with a dip stick, you are the first to present that possibility. Some research is in order.
Regards,
OW