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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    edited December 2013
    One could look at it almost the opposite of what you said and be just as correct but I would agree you on the most part. The Legacy has not increased sales substantially in recent years so new owners of the "quirky(?)" Subarus wouldn't seem to be a big influence for that model. Maybe the Forester or Outback maybe but this was comparing mainstream midsize cars to similar cars.

    @backy....the survey questioned owners of 2011-2014 models so it got a pretty good mix of old and new and improved version of just about all the cars.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited December 2013
    YAY Optima! (I am just glad it tied Camry and beat it's sister car, Sonata).

    I wonder what Chrysler has cooking for the future? They have been able to save themselves in the past with forward thinking design that brought us the Minivan, K-cars, and cab forward cars (Intrepid, 300). It is clear the 200 is a stopgap, and also clear that the Dart, (ahem) missed the target.

    Just as clear...Mazda better sell a boatload of new 3's, 6s, and CX-5s. I wonder how the new line is doing globally. Otherwise we could be looking at another Mitsubishi.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    edited December 2013
    "Mazda better sell a boatload of new 3's, 6s, and CX-5s."

    You make this statement every once in awhile without any reference to actual financial condition which is basically the reason why a company exists....to make profits, not just to sell quantity. I think Mazda, long ago, realized that it was a niche player and would never overtake the Toyota, GM, Ford, Hondas, etc of the world and they don't try to. There are plenty of companies of all types that are not anywhere near the lead in their industry in total sales but keep plugging along just fine, making good products and making decent profits. I admit the car business is more capital intensive but I haven't heard they are on the verge of bankruptcy if "they don't sell a boatload" more all of a sudden. i just wonder where you get that information or are you just assuming it because they are a small player? Not all small players are alike. Subaru is a small player but they do pretty good without trying to blow out the numbers. Mitsubishi is another story all together. Maybe Mazda is more like the turtle than the rabbit and likes to take things a little slower with fewer hiccups. I don't recall hearing about any major recalls or exaggerated MPG claims regarding Mazda recently.

    Actually, the CX-5 is doing tremendous, the Mazda6 is selling well and would probably have sold a lot more by now but Mazda was hampered by production capability and the new Mazda3(their bread and butter vehicle) has been raved about and just started hitting dealerships in quantity in about the last 6 weeks. With the new plant is Mexico ramping up for the Mazda3 they should not only sell a lot more of them but be making more profit per vehicle.
  • They had rung up a loss of $1.29 BILLION in 2012. That was the fourth year in a row of red ink. Then Ford walked out. Mazda managed to make a slight profit at the end of last quarter, but nowhere near enough to get out of debt. You do know they are in debt, right?

    So, even though things are looking up for Mazda, I stand by my comment.
    They have consolidated into a smaller company, but they have big company debt and development costs.

    You do know I am pulling for them, right? It isn't like I don't like their products. They finally have a "pure" Mazda product line that is fanatistic in nearly every way.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    edited December 2013
    Just about everybody is in debt at one time or another. That's the way big business works. However, 1.29 billion debt is not much for a car company, even a small one. The latest figure on the GM bailout is that the U.S. taxpayer will lose over $30 billion. And that is just the leftover debt. 1.29 billion pales in comparison. Sure Mazda is a lot smaller company and has debt just like hundreds of other corporations. But you keep making it sound almost like the sky is falling. It's not.

    I'm not sure Mazda "consolidated" into a smaller company. Ford just sold their last 20% share(something like that, I'm not sure of exact number) and Mazda now has no major partnerships. I did read something about them doing something with somebody on the Miata platform but can't remember the name. It may have been Alfa.

    Anyway, do they need to improve and eliminate some of that debt? Sure, but they are not alone.
  • albanytimalbanytim Member Posts: 18
    Regarding your statement on the GM bailout... according to the Wall Street Journal, the US taxpayer will lose about $10 billion on the GM bailout while making over $10 billion profit on the total federal bailout (including auto and financial companies).

    http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/11/21/government-turns-bailout-profit-despite- -gm-loss/
  • It was Alfa. You know your stuff! I can't wait to see the Alfa 4-C hit our shores either.

    http://www.roadandtrack.com/go/first-looks/2014-mazda-mx-5-miata-and-alfa-romeo-- spyder
  • So, we have had our first snow/ice/sleet in the DC region, and I did have the opportunity to drive in the worst of it.

    The bad news? Mud guards are terrible in snow. I may have to take them off for winter. .
    There was frozen slush packed in them badly enough that I believe that they would have broken off on a longer trip.

    The good news is that I had enough traction on untreated roads. The Bridgestone Turanza's worked great. I noticed that the traction control light was not working while I was slipping and sliding around (on purpose just to see it in operation during a time when drivers really need it). However, after I took my kids home and restarted the car, the traction control worked as intended. Weird.

    I was really happy that I had my winter floor mats already in it. Overall, it got me where I needed to be w/o drama.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Yes, I actually thought about that later but couldn't edit at that time. I rattled off a number that was old and before GM stock had risen very dramatically over the last year.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I keep seeing ads in the Chicago papers from a well respected dealership for the 2013 Sonata Hybrid for $7500 off MSRP and they say they have about 26 available. I'm not currently looking to acutally buy a new vehicle right now but this seems like quite a deal. But, it also makes me wonder. What's up with that discount? Is there something wrong with these things that I haven't heard about. I realize the Accord Hybrid is quite astounding but would that drive prices down on the Hyundai like that?
  • jplatt2jplatt2 Member Posts: 24
    cski, you mention Mazda’s loss for fiscal year ending 2012 but you fail to mention the results from their latest fiscal year ending Mar 2013. The following is from Business Week.
    Financial Statements for mazda motor corp (7261)
    Year over year, Mazda Motor Corporation has been able to grow revenues from ¥2.0T JPY to ¥2.2T JPY. Most impressively, the company has been able to reduce the percentage of sales devoted to cost of goods sold, SGA expenses and income tax expenses. These changes allowed the company to report positive net income, improving from a loss of ¥107.7B JPY to a profit of ¥34.3B JPY.
    Also, you mention that their recent profit is nowhere near enough to get out of debt. Every car company has significant debt, with no plans to get out of debt. Debt is used as leverage. We would never have heard of Donald Trump if he didn’t get leverage by getting mortgages from banks.
    I took a look at the balance sheets of Mazda, Toyota, Nissan and Honda and yes, Mazda is more highly leveraged but Mazda actually has the best liquidity ratio of the group.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    That's not an unusual discount on a model-year closeout. I've seen advertised specials of ~$5000 off of Sonata GLSes each of the past two years, for year-end closeouts, and the GLS costs a lot less than the Hybrid. And I've seen comparable specials on other low-trim mid-sizers such as the Camry and Altima, so it's not just Hyundai offering the great deals for year-end.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I understand fully the model year close out discounts etc. but this one stood out as I'm not used to seeing this kind of discount on a passenger car even at year end. The advertised discounts on the Sonata GLS at the same dealership was $4000. Maybe they just ordered way too many of the hybrids and when Honda's new Hybrid hit the streets with their 50mpg advertising it might have slowed the Sonata Hybrid sale.

    Anyway, sounds like a pretty darn good deal for somebody if they're in the market for one. The biggest discounts in Chicago Sunday paper for the Camry was about $4000k. The $7500 off the hybrid Hyundai stood out like a sore thumb

    It wasn't a slam of any kind against Hyundai by the way. Just curious.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,250
    edited December 2013
    How about this Ad ?
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yeah, maybe the new competition from the HAH is a factor. Maybe the under-$3 a gallon gas is a factor also. I've seen pretty big discounts on Priuses recently too... I never used to see that when gas was $4 a gallon.

    But remember... it's only a darn good deal if you really want the car! :)
  • gene103gene103 Member Posts: 47
    Well what car are they selling that has an MSRP of $26,445? If it's the GLS next to that price, then they must have added $4,000 in worthless dealer accesories so they can take $7,750 off. Even their footnote gives a disclaimer regarding their MSRP.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,250
    I didn't really look at how the numbers were arrived at, but thanks for reading the fine print. I just looked at the Screamer part of the ad. :)
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    edited December 2013
    I live in the nw burbs and don't get all the ads. I never see McGrath downtown ads. Also, a lot of southside and south suburb dealers advertise only in the Sun-Times. I get the Trib so I was only referencing the ads in my Chicago Tribune. I should have specified I guess.

    The ad I was referring to is this one.
    http://www.patrickhyundai.com/current-ad.aspx

    And I have to correct myself as I said there was $4000 off a Sonata GLS in the same ad and there was not. It must have been another dealer where I saw the $4000 off a Sonata.

    Edit: The ad that I linked to says $6500 off the Hybrid but I just checked my paper and it says $7500 plain as day. If you go to their website and click on the special banners at the top of the page it say $7500 of the Sonata Hybrids as well.

    Anyway, a good deal for somebody that need one.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,250
    I just typed in Chicago and Hyundai and picked the irish name.
    Will be freezing my butt off at the Pinstripe Bowl in a coupe of weeks.
    One of my kids wants to be able to post pics from the game.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • gene103gene103 Member Posts: 47
    At least you'll be warmer than if you went to the Super Bowl :)
  • Here is an area vs area comparison on the Hyundai Sonata Hybrid:

    Chicago (McGrath City) 2013 hybrid: $31,605 MSRP

    DC/VA (Fairfax Hyundai) 2013 Hybrid: $32,490 MSRP

    DC/VA (Fairfax Kia) 2013 Hybrid $32,959 MSRP

    The LX trim Hybrids (Both Kia and Hyundai) are roughly $25,500 - $26,500 MSRP

    Check this ad: http://www.fairfaxhyundai.com/models/hyundai-sonatahybrid?cs:a:i=hyundai_nav_son- ata
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,250
    Last year, I survived my Christmas present from the kids.
    Outdoor ice hockey game at Soldier Field in January. Brrr.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,250
    I bought the Fusion at the end of last February, so I have never driven it cold weather very much.
    Also, I've been working a bit later, so I'm heading home at peak traffic times.
    The fuel mileage has suffered, but the heat works well and the car is easy to drive in stop and go traffic.
    My old Explorer is pretty abrupt off and on the throttle, so not too enjoyable to drive in stop and go.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • ahightowerahightower Member Posts: 539
    edited December 2013
    I've been enjoying my new accord in the cold. Parking in an insulated garage at home helps in the morning, but it also heats up right quick in the evening headed home. I only drove it once in the Great Dallas Iceapalooza. OEM tires were obviously not meant for winter (which I assume is over now...) but it wasn't as scary as I expected. Put the manual in second, feet off the pedals, and it pulled like a little tractor.
  • To be more specific, the Accord Sport M/T and the Mazda 6 Touring M/T both made the list. Also, the Mazda 3 made the list, but not the Miata.

    So, here are the exalted ones:

    Accord Sport
    BMW 3/4 series
    Mazda6 Touring
    Mazda3 Touring
    Audi A6/S6/A7
    Chevy Corvette
    Cadillac CTS V-Sport
    Ford Festiva
    Volkswagen GTI
    Porsche Cayman/Boxster
  • ahightowerahightower Member Posts: 539
    edited December 2013
    10 Best was not specific to trim level. Any Accord or Mazda6 makes the cut. They just identified their favorites and how they're order their own in the commentary, as they did with every other vehicle on the list.

    That said, I happen to agree that, "A six-speed Accord Sport sedan for $24,505 rates as the best all-around value for a new car, period."
    That's pretty high praise! (And it's an even better value when you get it for $2K off MSRP.)
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,024
    The Accord has always been on C/D's 10 best list every year since the beginning. It seems that sometimes they really struggled to find a reason to keep it there, and clearly in some model years it did not belong there, but they didn't seem to want to break the string. Having said that, I have no issue with the current model being there. It does tend to diminish C/D's credibility though.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited December 2013
    Where C/D lost me was when they said: "the 1994 - 1997 fifth-gen is a particularly warm memory". WRONG!!!

    It may be a warm memory to the author (Aaron Robinson), but the 1990-1993 is clearly the best looking, most iconic Accord ever produced.

    See pics here: http://www.hondanews.com/channels/honda-automobiles/archive/1990/photos?year=199- - 0

    After that, all Honda could do is hope to continue to achieve perfection. I loved the aluminum-platter rims on the EX model in particular. This was the car where I bothered to learn the DX, LX, EX, and Si model identification.

    The interior, exterior, and the way the controls felt was so much better than anything else at that price. It drove like it was connected at the drivers cerebellum. Even now a good "survivor" is very desirable. It is sad that so many ended up ruined by the "Type R" crowd.

    Honda did great on this newest model, and Honda earned that 10 best spot as well.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited December 2013
    It may be a warm memory to the author (Aaron Robinson), but the 1990-1993 is clearly the best looking, most iconic Accord ever produced.

    WRONG! ;) The 1990-93 Accord was perhaps the most BORING incarnation of that car, styling-wise. (With the 1998-2002 gen a close 2nd.) Interior was nice, but exterior, especially on the sedan... boooor-ing.

    I thought the 1986-89 generation was the greatest, especially the Coupe and hatchback. Anyone remember how desirable those Coupes were when they first came out?

    Second best was probably the 2003-2007 generation. Before now, anyway. The current generation might be considered the greatest, if only because it replaced the dismal 2008-12 generation and because of the improved fuel efficiency and wider availability of the 6MT.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I actually owned a smoke grey 1990 Accord sedan and I loved it, especially compared to everything else at the time. We traded it on an Explorer and my wife has driven SUVs and CUVs ever since.
  • Wow. I actually like the 2003-2007 the least style wise. The back of the 03-04 looked like a Buick. As far as the actual operation of the car, it was great, until the transmission recall issues.

    Remember that Honda changed the back end in an unplanned refresh. Then it looked much better. (to me). Still, the only Honda that has made me look twice are the coupes and the new sedan, and the new sedan reminds me of the 90-93 models.

    It's funny backy, but I think I like the more angular cars and you like the more rounded ones. I actually liked the 98-02 models!! (could my taste in cars be boring???)Lmao.

    It is the same with our current choices. We both own the current generation
    Hyundai-Kia's, just different sides of the same coin. Interesting.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Remember that Honda changed the back end in an unplanned refresh.

    No, it was planned. Remember how Honda used to do mid-generation refreshes on all their cars, including the Accord. The Accord's refreshes typically included a tweak to the front and rear. A couple of other examples besides 2003-2007 were 1998-2002 and, more noticeably in the back, 1994-97.

    It's funny though you thought the 2003-5 Accord's rear looked like a Buick--the Skylark, right? I used to say that years ago around here, and got a lot of angry responses from Honda fans. :)
  • New board is nice!!! But back to the Accord...The new taillight scheme was introduced based on customer feedback. I remember reading an article about it. Anyway, all mid cycle refresh are planned..this one was planned due to folks not warming up to it. The back looked like a potato to me, and the taillights bowed into a frown. So, yes, my keen technical description is the back of that Accord looked like a big frowning potato. Lol. :p

  • glastonburyglastonbury Member Posts: 22

    I rent tons of mid-size cars for work (for long trips 6+ hours). Let's face it - cars are just so much better now than even a few years ago. I rented a Honda Sonata recently, and I was blown away by how much I disliked it. It was noisy and cheap and the steering was imho downright dangerous. I rented a Mazda 3 and that was very nice. I ended up buying a 2014 Accord EX-L, and that car is light years ahead of the Hyundai. I'm not trying to bash Hyundai's, I just don't get why they are so popular...it was by far the worst car I have ever rented.

  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,024

    You get what you pay for, generally speaking.

    I just noticed this discussion is listed on my Bookmarks page as being in the "Hyundai" forum. Why?

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • Wow, I can't believe that no one has posted yet. My Optima turns two years old this month on the 28th. I have 24,384 miles, which is right on track for average mileage. So, I was thinking about how the car has aged. Is it as tight as it was when I bought it?

    The answer is yes. It has held up very well. The interior surfaces have not faded, the dash cover has no sign of cracking, the drivers seat-bolster has a few more wrinkles in it from me sliding in and out. The back seat passenger seat belt latch has been twisted backwards somehow, and the
    steering wheel has some wrinkles in it from where my hand rests.

    The exterior has held up well too, with a few exceptions.The main issue is the panel behind the back wheel is loose. Seems the plastic screw sheared off. I think someone backed into me downtown. Next, the chrome trim around the drivers window has some scratches in it, and is not as firmly attached to the frame in a one inch spot where the door opens from snagging on clothing during entry/exit. Other owners have had it break off, so if it gets worse Kia will replace it. The paint has normal swirls in it from cleaning and buffing. The front grill is hard to clean and has faded in some places just a little.

    So, normal wear and tear from a normal owner. Only 3 more years of payments! ;):'(

  • @glastonbury said:
    I rent tons of mid-size cars for work (for long trips 6+ hours). Let's face it - cars are just so much better now than even a few years ago. I rented a Honda Sonata recently, and I was blown away by how much I disliked it. It was noisy and cheap and the steering was imho downright dangerous. I rented a Mazda 3 and that was very nice. I ended up buying a 2014 Accord EX-L, and that car is light years ahead of the Hyundai. I'm not trying to bash Hyundai's, I just don't get why they are so popular...it was by far the worst car I have ever rented.

    The "Sonoptima's" were available 3 years ago, and at the time had really good quality materials. Just two years makes a big difference when these competitive manufacturers continue to "one-up" each other on interior surfaces, knob and buttons feel and how they are weighted, etc.

    The Hyundai and Kia EPS systems are tuned differently, but overall I am neither impressed nor unhappy. It is what it is and doesn't bother me.

  • brian125brian125 Member Posts: 5,244

    Alot of folks like the look of the new Sonata. Hyundai discounts there cars so people feel they are getting alot more for there money. Reality is try selling or trading in a 2 or 3 yr Hyundai vehicle.......... there worth dirt. Here in NY it seems every other car is a Sonata.

    I also agree with glastonbury.

    23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,250

    Took the Fusion out today, made one xmas shopping stop, went the car wash and back in the garage. Looks so good cleaned up, I'm not sure when I'll drive it again.

    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • brian125brian125 Member Posts: 5,244

    Explorerx4

    Avoid car wash places were there are numerous cars lined up to be washed. This will avoid alot of scratches from the towels the guys are using. Alot of times workers will wipe your cars bottom then use the same towel to go across the top of car leaving those very fine scratch marks..

    I always try to go to a good hand wash place were they dry with the mirco fiber towels and replace towels for every new car being dried. Its worth the extra $$ spent.

    23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,250

    @brian125 said:
    Explorerx4

    Avoid car wash places were there are numerous cars lined up to be washed. This will avoid alot of scratches from the towels the guys are using. Alot of times workers will wipe your cars bottom then use the same towel to go across the top of car leaving those very fine scratch marks..

    I always try to go to a good hand wash place were they dry with the mirco fiber towels and replace towels for every new car being dried. Its worth the extra $$ spent.

    I went through the 'touchless' bay, not willing to risk my 19 inch rims in the drive through cloth wash. Mostly concerned about cleaning underneath due to the snow melter put on the roads.
    It really attacks the rubber seals.

    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,433

    @brian125 said:

    >

    I always try to go to a good hand wash place were they dry with the mirco fiber towels and replace towels for every new car being dried. Its worth the extra $$ spent.

    I do too. It is called my driveway. I never want anyone else to touch my car (at least the good one).

    I do have to remember to tell the Acura dealer not to run it through the wash machine though (pretty sure that is automated, but no idea if touchless).

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,250

    @stickguy said:
    I do have to remember to tell the Acura dealer not to run it through the wash machine though

    (pretty sure that is automated, but no idea if touchless).

    Here in the Northeast, it is important to clean off the underneath, especially with a somewhat older vehicle. Not easy to do that in your driveway.

    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • I always hand wash it, but the swirl marks seem to be unavoidable using the bucket and sponge method. I have taken my car to a car wash 4 times since I have owned it, just to get an undercarriage wash that I can't do myself. It has only snowed 3 times since 12/28/

    Does anyone know how to "reply", or is it now just "leave comment"?

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    edited December 2013

    @cski said:
    I always hand wash it, but the swirl marks seem to be unavoidable using the bucket and sponge method. I have taken my car to a car wash 4 times since I have owned it, just to get an undercarriage wash that I can't do myself. It has only snowed 3 times since 12/28/

    Does anyone know how to "reply", or is it now just "leave comment"?

    You can use the "quote" button right below the text of the post you are reading, next to the "flag." The standard quote give us what you see in this one. If the original post has a quote with it, the whole thing collapses and you have to copy the part you wish to quote.

    Or you can just type
    @imidazol97 and then type your new post. This works best if your response quote will be right below the original post that you're targeting for response. Otherwise the posts are separate and readers wonder which post the response is meant for.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • brian125brian125 Member Posts: 5,244
    edited December 2013

    So much wasted space. Its like a step back in convience to go forward with upgrades> @imidazol97 said:

    23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE

  • @imidazol97 said:
    So no reply button at all?

  • Now it says you said something that I actually said. This is not good. I would say lol, but...confused and dissapointed at this point. "reply" would solve a LOT of problems.

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    edited December 2013

    @cski said:
    Now it says you said something that I actually said. This is not good. I would say lol,

    I think somehow the process got mixed up.

    There's always the method of just copying text to be quoted, putting a ">" in front to indicate quote or making it italics or bold, and then typing response. We just need practice with the system now. And the "edit" time window is 4 hrs. for when I need to change what came out in the post.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • wayne21wayne21 Member Posts: 259
    edited December 2013

    I think they put a lot of work into making something less efficient and more complicated. Or another way of saying it would be they broke something that didn't need to be fixed.

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