Tires, tires, tires

driftracer · January 2003

something else to think about is going to a decent place that offers "lifetime alignment". For a one-time deal of $99 or so, you can get that 3-4 alignments done during the normal 3-4 years you may own a vehicle.

It's a sales gimmick, ideally designed for used car buyers who keep cars for a long time and the store can make big bucks on struts, tie rods, plus brakes and things in the process. Buying it for a newer car is like cheating the system - it's great.

ofrakin · January 2003

Thanks. How would your DSST's do if I put them (or another winter tire)on her car for next winter and she does most of her driving on rt95, from Balt.-past DC., and it doesn't snow? This is 30-70mph, bumper to bumper. And do they make a runflat snowtires? thanks again.Oh, the junkyard has 4 wheels @ $25, so I'm picking them up Mon., because the farmers almanac says we are getting 34" of snow in Feb.

ofrakin · January 2003

and all-season rears. I remember when bias ply's snows were put on the rear and regular G78's were on the front. Sounds to reason that this might work for radials.??????

ofrakin · January 2003

Nice car. My wifes twin bro ordered the top of the line yellow one.Last I heard he thought the yellow was brighter than what he's going to get. I see on another sight that you have? run flat snows for @$125.What brand are they and how'd they do?

ofrakin · January 2003

I saw were you had put runflat snows on your Mini for $125. What brand were they and how did they do?

hpulley4 · January 2003

We should take this to the snow/ice tire discussion but to end the thread here, I love these tires. They are H rated tires so they handle really well at low and high speeds. They are great on the freeway at speeds which are above an average snow tire's Q rating. Quiet too! Just a bit noisier than my summer tires at speed and actually quieter at low speeds (could be the different wheels though too). By comparison our other car's Michelin Artic Alpins sing on smooth wet pavement.

They are quite good on dry pavement. The grip isn't quite up to the standards of my summer performance runflats but it is still very good. They are a good tire for places which have dry pavement with patches of ice some days, fresh snow other days and fresh snow over packed snow over ice other days, really quite good in all conditions. If you really must drive on pure snow and ice every day then a Q rated snow/ice tire would likely do a bit better but for mixed conditions this tire really does well without compromising drivability on dry day roads.

ofrakin · January 2003

I'm buying them ASAP.

force98 · January 2003

Can anyone tell me if wheels from a '99 Escalade will fit an '02 Escalade? I found an awesone set of 4 Neeper 18" wheels mounted with Toyo Proxes ST 285/60VR18 high performance tires. They came off of a '99, and I can't get a straight answer if they changed bolt pattern/off-set on 2nd generation Escalade. I imagine same question would apply to wheels on the current Tahoe--would they fit last generation? Thanks!

obyone · January 2003

are not interchangable. For one, the older model has rear drums compared to rear disks on the newer model.

tboner · January 2003

I could see if the bolt pattern changed, or larger rotors were used up front. Usually the front rotors are larger than rear drums, besides, we are talking about larger aftermarket wheels that should fit.

Just ask the seller if you can test fit them before you buy. If they fit, pay your money and put the factories inside the truck to take 'em home, LOL.

TB

bretfraz · January 2003

After all the shopping and research I finally broke down and replaced my worn Michelin Energy MXV4 Plus'. I ended up with my #1 choice, Bridgstone Potenza RE950. Ordered them from Costco and with the current rebate program I paid $91 each, $7 less per tire than from Tire Rack and sales tax was cheaper than shipping. Had them mounted at Tire Plus for $12 each. Total for the whole thing was right at $450 installed. Can't beat that price with a stick!

The Costco rebate runs Jan 20 to Feb 3 and includes all Michelin and Bridgestone tires including special orders (like mine). $60 off the top is a helluva deal so if you're a member and need tires, go for it.

corvette · January 2003

When it was time for new tires, I went to a plus-zero size for my VW Jetta (225/50 HR 16 instead of 205/55 HR 16). The tires are Michelin Pilots marked as all-season, and even being brand new, they were dangerous in the first snow I drove in. I realize that by going to a wider tread, I compromised my snow performance. The second time it snowed here, I increased the cold inflation pressure to the maximum listed on the sidewall (44 psi), and I seemed to slide around a lot less. Was this the placebo effect, or was it just because the second snow was not as bad as the first?

stever · January 2003

Nice going. At that price the savings will pay for a year or two of club memberships. Of course, if you return to Costco again before the MXV4's wear out, you'll save so much money you'll be in the poorhouse. Do they still call it the "$100 Club" or has inflation raised the "cost per trip"?

Steve, Host

porknbeans · January 2003

The great Oz has spoken!

Good choice and great deal on the tires.

hpulley4 · January 2003

Tire inflation directly affects the shape of the contact patch. By increasing the pressure you'll make the patch narrower which can help some when driving in snow. Narrower tires will have a narrower contact patch, even at a lower pressure, which is why narrow tires generally work better in winter (World Rally Car ice tires are just 100mm wide!). Pumping up the pressure will also give you increased gas mileage but a rougher ride and possibly uneven (centre) wear.

Performance all-season tires are generally not great in snow. To get an all-season rating all you have to do is make the tread pattern sufficiently empty, it doesn't have to pass any sort of winter tests or be any good in snow. Winter tires with the mountain and snowflake symbol must pass an actual test to get that rating.

ryoken · January 2003

I'm usually lucky to get out of Costco under $200.

Anybody take their luxury-brand cars to Costco for tires? Would you trust those guys to mount tires on an Infiniti, Lexus, or BMW?

bretfraz · January 2003

"Club" membership varies. My parents spend a small fortune there every year; Costco sends them love letters and all kinds of special notices. I'm not that excessive but I still spend a lot of $$$ there. I have the willpower to actually walk out of Costco without purchasing a thing. That ain't easy, believe me.

I'm headed back to Costco today, anyway. I think I saw a Rio 900 MP3 player for $129 the other day. Gotta go check it out!!

stever · January 2003

lol, I finally quit renewing my card. Fortunately we get a lot of visitors that belong :-)

Steve, Host

stever · January 2003

I did a brief search in here but don't see where anyone had a definitive answer to the question of how long a tire will last - either stored in the tire warehouse or on the rim or as a spare.

There must be a reason they stamp a date code on them....

Steve, Host

malachy72 · January 2003

gives lifetime balance and rotation when you have the tires mounted there. This past summer I bought 2 tires at Costco and paid additional $ to have the 2 others balanced and remounted. I went back today for the rotation and the Mgr. said that I had to pay to have the 2 other tires balanced with the rotation service because it wasn't a lifetime deal as I hadn't purchased the tires there, only had paid for the balance and mounting. I told him that I had purchased the tires there, just not at the time of the last purchase. He researched on his data base, confirmed my story, and the balance and rotation was gratis on all 4 tires. Just a heads up on purchasing from source outside Costco and expecting lifetime service because Costco did the mounting.

capriracer · January 2003

It is hard to give a definitive answer to this question because temperature has such a strong effect.

Let's start with the date code thing! This is a governement regulation dating from the 1970's. Prior to that time every tire manufacturer used a different system, so a standard system was put in place. One of the reasons for the date coding in the first place is to be able to track improvements. Unlike cars, which have model year changes a tire looks pretty much the same from the time a line is introduced, until it is obsoleted. There maybe a thousand changes from beginning to end. So being able to tell when a tire was produced (and where!), allows the manufacturer to judge the effect these changes have on performance.

Now to shelf life. The biggest problem in this area is the amount of antioxidants (AO's) in the rubber, which will vary with the particular component being studied - tread will be different that sidewall, white sidewall will be different than black sidewall, etc. When a tire is in use, the flexing of the tire allows the AO's to migrate. But when a tire is not in use, the AO's are bond up in the rubber matrix. With a new (or used) tire, the surface of the rubber is attacked by the oyigen and ozone, and the AO's provide soething besides the rubber to attack. However the longer a tire is inactive, the more the AO's are used up, and since these are not being replenished by the supply below the surface, the rubber gets attacked. All of this is dependent on the temperature.

If you remember high school chemistry, reactions double with every 10 F increase in temp. So a tire stored at 70F would last twice as long as 80F.

I have these container units that many are storing tires in nowadays. I just cringe!!

But let me give you a feel for this sort of thing.

A tire ought to be sold within a year of production. It is probably OK to sell within 2 years.

Any tire older than 6 years ought to be suspect. Anything over 10 ought to be replaced.

Hope this helps.

stever · January 2003

I nosed around the net a little and it looks like UV exposure can be a big factor too. Some auto restorers claim to have drug 60 year old tires out of storage and found them useable, at least for the auto shows. Michelin claims that some of their aviation tires can last 30 years. The US DOD has a report that concludes anything over 5 years old should be replaced!

I'm buying a 5+ year old low mileage car next month and I'm curious to see how the tires hold up - it's been running summer and winter tires so actual mileage on each set is less than 18,000 miles.

Steve, Host

pghtiburon · January 2003

I have a 2001 Hyundai Tiburon and I need to a get a set of new tires. The stock tires (which weren't that great to begin with) had a V speed rating.

The tires I'm thinking of getting (Yokahama Avid T4) have a T speed rating. Some tire shops are telling me that I shouldn't drop so much in speed rating, but I can't ever imagine driving over 118 mph so I don't particularly see what the big deal is. Any advice?

ryoken · January 2003

I believe their recommendation is based mainly on liability. Manufacturers put tires on the car that can handle the car's top speed. They (and tire shops) don't want you to buy the T tires, go 130mph, have a blowout, and then sue them. S or T rated tires are plenty for normal daily commutes. Just know that there's an extra danger to going over the tire's limit, and if you sell the car with those tires on it, you should make sure the new owner knows, as you wouldn't want them to sue you, either.

Other than that, I don't see what the big deal is, either.

zueslewis · January 2003

tires will have a stiffer sidewall and softer compound tread, both of which drastically improve handling, especially in the dry stuff.

The T rated tire will last a bit longer, but if you enjoy driving your car, instead of just commuting, there are many, many V and Z rated tires that will work and many are as economical as the T rated choices.

For instance, the Tire Rack shows, in 195/55-15 (your stock size?), the Dunlop SP Sport FM 901 with a V rating, A in traction, A in Temp and a 200 treadwear rating. They also show the Kumho, same specs, except the treadwear rating is 340, which is much better. Both tires list for $63.00 each, plus shipping.

bretfraz · January 2003

But first some added info to what Zueslewis posted. You cannot directly compare UTQG ratings from one mfr to another, only from tire to tire within the same mfr. This is a pretty graphic loophole negotiated by tire mfr's to prevent direct comparison of tire specs. Hopefully new NHTSA legislation will change this but for now there is no direct comparison between specs on a Dunlop to specs on a Kumho, or any other mfr.

As for speed ratings, please keep in mind that the car mfr did not haphazardly select that particular tire for your car. The specific engineering specs were developed by the auto maker for a reason. High performance cars require high performance tires to maintain the steering/braking/roadholding capabilites of that model of car. A lesser tire compromises those capabilities.

Looking at speed ratings and saying to yourself, "well, I'm never gonna drive 118 MPH so why do I need a tire that can do that?" is a little myopic IMO. Granted, 118 MPH is considered excessive speed pretty much all over N. America. But it seems like people *everywhere* are driving 80+ MPH on the interstates. And its not just the hot rod guys or the rich dude in his BMW. Its sales reps, suburban mommies, college kids, school teachers, IT geeks..... pretty much everyone who possesses a drivers license. 80 MPH is about 67% of 118 MPH. That doesn't leave much room for error, driver, vehicle or tire. I'll let someone like CAPRIRACER discuss how NHTSA tests for speed ratings but I do know the test protocols are probably not what you think they are.

My point is, by using a lower speed rated tire you are limiting the safety cushion that a tire can provide. This safety cushion is further eroded if the tires are underinflated (when was the last time you checked your tire pressures?), significantly worn or out of balance, or if the vehicle is heavily loaded or driven in hot weather. Imagine several of those factors in play at one time. Why run the risk?

capriracer · January 2003

Most Welcome!

It is my understanding that UV rays will generate ozone in many materials, so the AO's levels are still the key issue.

capriracer · January 2003

FYI,

The UTQG tread wear rating is based on a test where a standard tire is compared to the target tire. I don't remember the exact mileage of the test, but it was pretty low, which was what the tire manufacturers objected to when UTQG rating were first proposed. The issue was trying to project wear out based on a short test. A small difference in the test data could equal a big difference in the rating.

As it currently stands, a tire manufacturer does not actually have to test a new tire to get the rating. If asked, the manufacturer just has to be able to explain why he chose that rating number and be able to back that up with documentation. Some manufacturers take that to mean they have to run the test (or something comparable), and some manufacturers take that to mean they can go through a whole series of connected data, without actually running the test.

The other part of this is that each manufacturer has his own philosphy as to what number they put on the sidewall. Some play a conservative game and underestimate the actual rating, while others take as much liberty as they comfortably feel they can get away with.

BTW, I am not aware the NHTSA is reconsidering altering anything about the UTQG ratings. They seem to have their hands full with the new TREAD act and how they are going to deal with all the data they will be recieving starting in July.

Speed Ratings.

NHTSA doesn't do any testing (except for its own purposes and they rarely publish the results).

Each tire manufacturer is responsible for the testing and the rating. The test is an SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) standard test, basically a step speed test. The tire is mounted on a large diameter wheel and loaded to some percent of the rated load at some pressure. The tire is run at a given speed for a certain distance (or maybe it's time) and if it doesn't fail, the speed is increased to the next level and run some more. This continues in a series of steps of increasing speed until either the tire fails, or the tire reaches a certain level. The rating is based on the highest completed level. However, most tire manufacturers want some cushion so they normally continue the test beyond the minimum for the rating with each manufacturer decide how much more that should be.

So how does the test apply to the real world? Pretty well! The test was developed long ago and part of its development was its correlation to experience in the field.

There are some words of caution: Inflation pressure has a major effect on tire performance. So if someone is considering using a lower speed rating because he "never drives 118 mph", then he must accept responsibility to regularly check his inflation pressure to compensate.

Hope this helps.

ryoken · January 2003

I stand corrected. I see the big deal now.

tboner · February 2003

with low profile, speed rated tires, it is even more important to check your tire pressure. Why? Because you have even less indication from the tire that it is low on air. The low profile and stiff sidewall mean the tire can often support the car without sufficient air.

But only for a short time...

TB

zueslewis · February 2003

treadwear ratings, I was speaking generally. A 150-200 point difference in ratings is usually noticeable, even between brands, in my experience.

tidester · February 2003

If you remember high school chemistry, reactions double with every 10 F increase in temp. So a tire stored at 70F would last twice as long as 80F.

Not to quibble but ...

What you may be remembering from your high school chemistry is that reaction rates depend on temperature. It may be that for a particular reaction and under specific conditions, the rate is approximately double for given temperature change. Generally, the rate constant depends on the activation energy and temperature in a complicated way.

tidester, host

capriracer · February 2003

Like most rules of thumb, the entire picture isn't covered accurately.

I enjoyed the web page you pointed out. Learned something, too! But it is apparent that the activation energy for rubber degradation must be low. I wonder how low the temp has to be for this is reaction to be prevented (or more accurately - slowed down to the point where it is almost imperceptible.) Oxygen and ozone are very active molecules and I'll bet that the temperature where that happens is well below freezing. And since we know that really cold temps cause the rubber to be more crack prone on its own, I think this is a dead end as a solution.

Nobody said material science was easy!!

tidester · February 2003

Nobody said material science was easy!!

Agreed!

tidester, host

kennynmd · February 2003

The stock tires on my truck are 265/70/15. I need new tires..I was wondering what size tires are bigger...the stock ones or 31.5/10.5/15?

zueslewis · February 2003

almost 2 inches - good swap, though and would look beefier.

bayhunter · February 2003

Have a 2002 Z-71 Suburban and am considering the new Bridgestone Dueler A/T Revo tires at the OEM size of 265 70 17.
The Sub came with Goodyear Wrangler AT/S in that 265 70 17 size. But those Goodyears, according to the Spec-charts @ TireRack are 32 inches tall and the Revo's are 31.7 inches tall.
Is this a problem for the ECM or computer stuff or anything?

Also, I have not been able to find a post in here saying anything about these new tires from Bridgestone. Has anyone bought them yet. If so, could you please report on your experience with them? Even if you chose against them in favor of something else could you please reply to this and tell why?

The Bridgestones are:
265/70SR17 113S SL Outlined White Letter
UTQG = 500 A B
Max Load = 2535lbs.
Max Inflation = 44psi
Tread Depth = 13/32nds
Overall Diam. = 31.7"
Revs Per Mile = 658

It's that "Revs Per Mile" that concerns me about the ECM or whatever it's called.
The Goodyears Overall Diam = 32" but,
the Spec-Chart did not have the "Revs Per Mile" available in the chart. I have to believe it is slightly less Revs Per Mile but, is it enough to cause a problem.
I ask this because I really hate these Goodyears. They, or some other Goodyear of similar A/T type, have been the original OEM tire on the last three SUV's we have owned and I have never been satisfied with any of their Tread-Life or especially Traction, after about 20K miles or so.
I'm in no big hurry to replace them right now.
The GY A/T's have only about 17K on them so far but, by the end of summer they are going to have to go.

Thanks to everyone on here for all the great advise, on all the Edmunds boards, and this Tire-Board in particular. It's been quite informative and very educational so far.
I'm looking forward to any additional advise I can get on this particular tire.

Thanks again.

capriracer · February 2003

The 31's are indeed bigger (in diameter) which may cause interfernce problem when the suspension bottoms outs. Also your speedo and odo will be reading low by 3%, reading 62 when the speed is actually 60.

BUT

The 31's also have a lower load carrying capacity. A P265/70R15 has a load capacity of 2337 pounds at 35 psi. A 31X10.50R15LT Load Range B has a load capacity of 1765 @ 35psi. If you go up to a 31 Load Range C, the load capacity increases to 2270 but the correspaonding pressure is 50 psi. Are your wheels capable of 50 psi?

In order to solve this puzzle, I need to know the year make and model of your vehicle. And it would be helpful if you found the placard and recorded the tire size and inflation pressure. The placard is usually located on the door post or in the glove box.

Hope this helps.

kennynmd · February 2003

actuallt capriracer, I have a 98 Mitsu Montero Sport. It came with 265/70/15. It has the stock wheels and I don't do any towing at all. Would you know if I willl be able to put the 31/10.5/15's on it with no problem? Thanks

zueslewis · February 2003

capriracer · February 2003

According to Tire Guides, a 1998 Mitsubishi Montero Sport came with either P225/75R15 on 6" wheels inflated to 26 front / 35 rear.. OR P265/70R15 on 7" wheels inflated to 26 front 35 rear.

Isn't that interesting??

What that means is the load capacity for the larger tire is 1883 front / 2125 rear (2017/1.1 and 2337/1.1, because it is on a truck - yes, SUV's are trucks for this calculation.)

A 31X10.50R15LT needs to be inflated to 37 / 46 rear to get the same load capacities. That means you need to get a Load Range C (50 psi max). BTW, a 31X10.50R15LT barely fits on a 7" wheel.

I am a little curious why Mitsubishi put the same inflation pressure on both tires. I suspect it is because 26 psi is the minimum inflation pressure recommended for P metric tires and they wanted to maintain the balance in the larger size.

Let's try the smaller size - P225/75R15 26 front / 35 rear - 1483 front / 1704 rear (1631/1.1 and 1874/1.1)

A 31X10.5R 15LT needs 27 front / 33 rear. A Load Range B. I don't like the difference in spread this creates so I'd recommend using 27 / 35, which is real close to the original setting.

Let's try the 30X9.50R15LT:

Using the P265 - 46 psi front and not enough for the rear (Load Range C)

Using the P225 - 32 front / 40 rear. A Load Range C. I like this one best, and the diameter is 29.5, which is a little smaller than the P265 (29.65), which is less than 1/2%.

Hope this helps.

kennynmd · February 2003

sorry about my lack of knowledge but I have no idea what you said capriracer. So what should I go with? I want a smooth and quiet and don't mind spending the extra money on the cross terrains even though they don't make 31's

capriracer · February 2003

Sorry, sometimes I get carried away.

I recommend you stay with the old tire size. I don't see any real advantage to going to a 31X10.5R15LT other than the larger diameter, and that might cause rubbing problems and your speedometer would be off.

But if you are determined to have a flotation type size (which is what this series of tire is called), then I would go with a 30X9.50R15LT inflated to 32 front 40 rear.

Hope this helps.

kennynmd · February 2003

I guess I'll stick with the 265/70/15. I just want a beefier look. Is the 30/9.5/15 smaaller than the 265/70/15? Or about the same?

capriracer · February 2003

The 30X9.50R15LT is very slightly smaller than the P265/70R15.

However, this varies a bit and you may find the reverse to be true in some cases.

kennynmd · February 2003

capriracer...what do you suggest for my truck as far as brands and type. I don't mind spending the extra $$$ to get a nice tire. But what to you is worth the $$$, and is quiet and has good handling. I'm in Maryland so I really don't need a tire for good snow tractioin because we don't get much. I must say that you are really knowledgeable. Do you Sell tires?

ebn50 · February 2003

Hi,

I own a Toyota 1995 pickup (non 4x4) and am looking to get the truck off the ground a little bit, if possible. The tires right now are stock (I'm not sure off hand what size, will get back to you all with that). Just want to know what advice you all have to offer.

Thanks,

Evan

capriracer · February 2003

Since I work for a major manufacturer of tires, it wouldn't be right for me to make a brand recommendation,

BUT,

If you want quiet (which is kind of the opposite direction of the 31x10.50R15LT), you'll want an all season. Look for straight ribs, with little siping and cross grooves. But you also want "beefy". which in some respects leads you more towards the all terrain.

I think you need to spend a little time at Tire Rack's web site.

www.tirerack.com

Read about UTQG ratings in their Tire Tech area. Then look at what they offer in your size. Also read the local newspaper ads. At that point you ought to have a good idea of what's out there and the compromises needed to make a good decision.

Word of caution: It is fairly common for large distributors of tires to have unique brands and designs. You may find a tire that seems to fit, and you can't find it anywhere else to make a price comparison. This is exactly why they do this. Try to stay focused on the UTQG ratings and the overall appearance of the design, and don't believe the printed descriptions.

Recommendation: Buy locally, so if you have a problem, you'll have someone with a vested interest to go to.

Hope this helps.

capriracer · February 2003

The first thing you need to do is find the placard.

The placard, among many things, tells the original tire size and the proper inflation pressure for that tire size. The placard is usually located on a doorpost or in the glove box.

The limitation on tire size is the wheel width. If your placard has that info, great!!

I looked your vehicle up in Tire Guides, which summarizes the placard info, but there are several Toyota pickups and a variety of tire and wheel sizes. So we need to know what's on the placard.

After you've got that I can tell you what will fit on the wheels you have, BUT I won't be able to tell you if there is enough room in the fender. For that you'll need to find some folks who have done this type of thing before. Try a web site devoted to your vehicle...or an on line club.

Hope this helps.

ponch49 · February 2003

My initial thoughts of these tires was favorable but now that they have left me at a stand still on a hill on more than one occasion this winter season (even with traction control), I won't be sporting them next year. I even alter my route to ensure I don't encounter any steep hills. I can't even drive up my drive way yet my wife has no problems in her accord (Toyo 800 Ultra). Perhaps I should have listened to "bretfraz" in post 989 and took a closer look at BFGoodrich Control T/A M80 or M65 and the Goodyear Regatta 2. I realize the Odyssey is a tad heavy but I had envisioned better traction in wet snow than this. I'll surely have a good look at the tires mentioned and may even revert back to the Michelins.

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