Suzuki Grand Vitara vs Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape vs Saturn

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Comments

  • goldencouple1goldencouple1 Member Posts: 209
  • goldencouple1goldencouple1 Member Posts: 209
    2002 SUV brouchure, page 80.
  • goldencouple1goldencouple1 Member Posts: 209
    How about a muddy Subaru Legacy w/ a kayak and a bike rack on top? How about anything you can get up to where yo want to get, that will carry what you want to carry?

    "SUV" is an image. A mystique. A way to drive a station wagon or minivan, while pretending you are not -- "No, son, that...that is a SUV!" How many times does a varition on these words appear in these boards: :"I didn't want to drive a minivan, so I bought a ________."

    Better let Forester into the club, because people who drive beat-up Jeeps, and Broncos, and Scouts and modified Toyota pickups are laughing at all of us little "SUV" owners.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The "buzzy" engine in the Forester is the quietest in this bunch. Looks at C&D tests.

    The seats are lower, but the 2003 gets a ratcheting height adjustment. Plus, it's easier for folks to climb in, or lift infant seats into. The cargo lift over is also at a back-saving low height.

    I broke 30mpg on one trip. A couple of owners have exceeded 33mpg!

    Throw out the tape measures - and hit the trails. I've driven my Forester in the Outer Banks, and on unimproved sand/mud roads in the Pine Barrens, plus a few farms. Basically, more than 99.9% of owners will ever need. It's never, ever even hinted at lacking traction. I have extensive photos of my trips, if anyone doubts it.

    -juice
  • rhetzlerrhetzler Member Posts: 2
    Does anyone have a fix for very poor gas mileage relative to the 19/26 mpg on the sticker? I love the vehicle but am truly bummed by 20 mpg on the highway and 13-15 mixed city driving. So far, Hyundai and my Service Manager are quite unsympathetic but gas mileage is not even close to advertised numbers and more like a heavier vehicle with a V8.
  • carseeker4carseeker4 Member Posts: 228
    rhetzler... Yeah, the numbers are disappointing so far. I've gotten 20 MPG on the highway, but am averaging about 16 in the "mixed city" driving you are talking about. I usually like to wait until after 5,000-7,000 miles to make a final judgement. My MPG has been creeping up over the past few tankfulls, so I'm optimistic that it will eventually at least get close to the city number. Since my highway trip occurred at 500 miles, I am sure I'll get to the 23 MPG on the highway. Also review the posts in the "Hyundai Santa Fe" thread to check on some tips for increasing MPGs (strangely enough, filling the tank more slowly - so far, it seems to have helped for me...).
    juice - I know we had a dialog on this a couple hundred posts back on this thread. Maybe "buzzy" is the wrong word... but, it tends to have a rough idle. I test drove both the Outback and Forester and noticed the same thing.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Hmm, with FWD? The vehicle is sort of heavy, but that's lower than normal, I'm sure.

    Consider doing a fuel system service. They force pressurized solvents through the fuel system to clean out any gunk. It made our 626 a lot more responsive.

    Make sure the tire pressures are okay, and check them regularly. Also, don't carry unneeded stuff in the vehicle, they just serve as ballast.

    Just my 2 cents'.

    -juice
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    The only experience I've had with the Forester is the one I test drove. When we stopped to change over drivers, I was surprised at how quiet the engine was, and actually opened the door to make sure it really was still running. It was the only one of this group that I had that reaction with.

    I freely admit that I am used to a much noisier (and thirsty) vehicle.
  • gsogymratgsogymrat Member Posts: 97
    I have only have 2700 miles on my 2002 FWD Santa Fe LX. So far in mostly city driving I am averaging 23 MPG. The best I have done is 27.7 MPG on a 300 mile highway road trip. I'm a pretty conservative driver but use AC almost all the time.

    As far as putting a dog in the Santa Fe I have a 70 lb. standard poodle who is comfortable in the cargo area. I am going to have hooks installed on the ceiling behind the seat so I can attach the existing cargo net so he can't jump the seat.

    I might have gone with the 2002 CR-V, just because it is a Honda, but I didn't think it could pull my camper. The Honda dealer's attitude was "oh those towing capacity ratings don't mean much. I'm sure it can tow it" before I even told him how much the camper weighed.
  • carseeker4carseeker4 Member Posts: 228
    you GOTTA have a 4-cylinder to get that kind of city mileage (unless your city driving is on the expressway!), or you go downhill to work (and back!), even with Front Wheel Drive. I have a 4WD. I know that will make a big difference, especially on the highway.
  • jaserbjaserb Member Posts: 820
    I usually get 20-22 in mixed city / highway driving (usually a little better when my wife's been driving it a lot... go figure!). I've gotten up to about 25 on the freeway (lots of mtns around here, tho). Mileage did improve quite a bit once we got some miles on the engine - its at about 18k now, so it's well broken in. By the way, ours is a FWD LX in Merlot. We love the color - sorry, carseeker!

    Filling the tank more slowly seems to keep the pump cut off from happening prematurely, which helps you get more accurate numbers. I don't think it really helps improve the mileage.

    -Jason
  • gsogymratgsogymrat Member Posts: 97
    No, it's a V6. The lowest MPG I've gotten is 18, which was the first tank of gas. I'm one of those obsessive people who documents the mileage, gas price, etc. every time I fill up (I can tell you how much gas was going for as far back as the mid 1980s.) I haven't had the pump cut off problem. I just fill it until it cuts off and it reads full.
  • carseeker4carseeker4 Member Posts: 228
    gsogymrat... ok, I stand corrected.... it must be the FWD then.. I have 4WD.
    jaserb... I only have 2300, so yeah, I am not in despair yet, and the MPG is creeping up like I said. As far as the color goes.... ... maybe I can just slowly paint it into Merlot by ordering 2500 bottles of touch up paint. The parts dept would love me!
  • mad0865mad0865 Member Posts: 176
    Sorry, I live in NJ where we can't pump our own gas, but how do you go about filling the gas tank slowly? Just curious, never heard of such a thing.

    MAD
  • txsantafetxsantafe Member Posts: 25
    Have the attendant set the pump trigger on the lowest locking position on the handle. This position will fill the tank up slowly
  • irvedmundsirvedmunds Member Posts: 2
    My wife is 4'8" and we are having difficulty finding a small suv where she can reach the accelerator and brake without also sitting right on top of the steering wheel. We also want a vehicle where entry is relatively easy.
    Any suggestions?
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I don't think she would have a lot of trouble climbing into any of the small SUV's, but the Forester would certainly be the easiest. As for finding one that gives her the recommended twelve inches (I think it's twelve, maybe more?) between her head and the airbag housing, I think you're going to be out of luck with just about anything. I've never actually tried them, but you might want to consider trying out the adjustable pedals on the Ford Explorer if you really want a truck. I almost forgot to tell you how I came to these conclusions. I have test driven all but the Forester, and the CR-V too. I now own an Escape and absolutely love it. It is perfect for what we needed it for.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    If anyone comes across any good info about pedal extenders, please cross-post it in the Vehicle adaptive equipment for disabled people discussion. This is a pretty common complaint, but not enough info floating around about fixes. Thanks!

    Steve
    Host
    SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    I'm 5' and can only make the distance in a Forester. Others I'm a bit too close. I looked at the Ford full sized pickup with the pedals that adjust. I was REALLY pleased - it isn't just a gimmick, they really do make a difference. Got me thinking about full sized pickups again. I just can't make up my mind what I really want or need. And my husband is having the same problem! Actually, since we really should wait until next year when we get some other bills paid off, it is probably better that we are so confused!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Irv: I think you might find the Forester most friendly for those a little closer to the earth. ;-)

    Why? Very low step in, low lift over for cargo, roof rack you can actually reach without a ladder, low cowl, and excellent visibility. She can wear a skirt and climb in easily. Tilt steering is standard, and the seat base is tilt adjustable front and rear.

    Adjustable pedals are neat, but on mostly pricey SUVs until now. They should spread soon, though.

    -juice
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    You are right about everything you say, except that I have no problems getting into a tall Wrangler using the running boards (nerf bars work well too). Roof rack height would be definitely better. I don't worry about the skirt issue - I don't own one that fits anymore. I have (with great difficulty) gotten in the Wrangler a couple of times in a tight skirt, but it is much higher than any of these vehicles.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Running boards help you get up, but often they just get your pants dirty when you step out. That's why I don't like them.

    Some new trucks have powered running boards that pop out when you open the door, kinda neat.

    -juice
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    The height of the Wrangler means that you use them to get down too, and they are pretty wide, so they are harder to reach over. It's actually easier to get out of the Wrangler in a skirt than in, especially if you aren't driving. Many of the running boards on new SUV's (I'm thinking of the Escape, the Explorer and the Trailblazer) are much lower than the body of the vehicle and are just the right height to rub your pants legs. If I got any of them I might go with nerf bars, but would skip anything else, since I need all the ground clearance I can get.

    Powered running boards? They sound like they would break off easily. I'd rather go simple and not bother with any boards. By the way, what is the deepest snow that you have gone through with your Forester?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    DC doesn't get a whole lot, to be honest, but I've driven in 12" of powder and had a blast doing it. There was traction to spare so I went to parking lot to play around. The Forester can wag its tail in the snow nicely - the rear wheels kick out, power transfers to the front, and it pulls you out of the skid. You can even add throttle and wag the tail a couple of times, it's a hoot.

    -juice
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    The only reason I asked is that we do get an occasional snow storm. This year hardly any at all, but last year life was interesting. I was wondering if any of the these 4 vehicles would make it through a storm we had last year - here is a link to a couple of photos I took one day in February. Just remember - this is taken in Southern California - about 90 miles from downtown Los Angeles.


    http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291862949

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Wow, looks like over a foot of snow!

    Any one of these sport/cutes would probably manage, depending on the tires chosen. The front bumper would basically be a snow plow on fresh, unplowed roads, but I bet they'd manage.

    -juice
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    It was closer to 3' - about 30" I think, and all in one night. I don't think any of them would have made it through - the picture of the Wrangler (30" wheel group) was of it stuck - I got high-centered by the snow that packed under the frame (using the front bumper as a snow plow worked just enough to get out of the driveway before I got stuck). I had to dig the snow out from under the frame so I could get the wheels down enough to be able to back up into the driveway.

    I really don't expect anything to get through that much snow, but I thought I would ask. I understand that CalTrans, etc. had to use snow cats to rescue the people from the over 100 cars stranded on the freeway, because the 4x4s couldn't get to them!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The wind must have blown some of the snow off that truck in the first pick.

    With 30", you're better off staying home, no matter what you buy!

    -juice
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    Between the wind and the fact that the Wrangler had moved some (not far, but some) quite a bit of the snow had fallen off. The third picture of the Toyota (if you can find it) is more accurate.

    And yes, once the Wrangler was stuck in the street, I went inside, called work, and enjoyed an unexpected day off!
  • guyfguyf Member Posts: 456
    A co-worker Escape V-6 engine blew up at 52,000 km. He is waiting for his replacement engine. Nothing's perfect!
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    I hope your friend was able to "ESCAPE" from the vehicle before the explosion!!
  • oldntired1950oldntired1950 Member Posts: 151
    My wife is about 4'8" tall... or is that short?? and we had the same problems as previously discussed in this thread. We ended up with a Liberty Sport. The only accommodation to her height is that we got the side rails for her to step up into the truck. By adjusting the seat and seat back she can find a reasonable position where she can reach the pedals and not be on top of the wheel. By the way, the problem is not with her head being too close to the air bag during deployment, but her chest. There have been recorded instances where the air bag deployed for a driver closer than 8" from the wheel, and caused the aorta to explode from the sudden violent explosion against the driver's chest. I still worry every time she drives our 96 Chrysler Cirrus, where her chest just about touches the wheel. The 96 Cirrus has the older 1 stage airbags - could be fatal in a bad head-on collision.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Oldntired1950- I'd immediately disable the airbag in that 96 Cirrus if I were you. With your wife's driving position, it's almost guaranteed to do more harm than good.

    -Frank P.
  • escape2003kcguescape2003kcgu Member Posts: 10
    His Escape blew up? I'd like to hear more about the details on this. I have the complete information about the 2003 Escape including all changes if anyone is interested. Just email me at Escape2003KCguy@yahoo.com.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Are they summarized on a web site somewhere?

    I'd be curious to know if Ford developed a true manual for that V6, given the Mazda 6 will share that engine block and it'll offer one.

    Also, when is the hybrid coming?

    -juice
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Escape2003kcgu works at the factory and has access to some brochures. A summary here would be nice, if you have time, Escape2003kcgu. Thanks!

    Steve
    Host
    SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, fire away. My wish list would include:

    * 219hp engine from Mazda 6 with S-VT (3.0l Duratec block)
    * 5 speed manual with the V6
    * longer warranty, 5/60 at least
    * some upgrades in materials

    -juice
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    A hybrid that makes a big difference in mpg
    A 5/100 warranty or match Dodge's 7/100

    I second the 5 speed V6 and better materials

    I'd definitely look at one!
  • subarudesubarude Member Posts: 5
    I own a 1999 Outback. I had no problems with the car in the first two years.
    In December of 2001, we developed a burning smell from the front of the car. When describing the symptoms over the phone the dealer correctly diagnosed the problems as a leaking front engine crank oil seal. He told me this was quite common and after replacement we could expect the seal to last 100,000 miles or more because the dealer installed seal lasts longer than the factory seal. Immediately following this work we heard a constant squeal from the engine, which was diagnosed as a defective alternator. Having just spent over $400.00 on the car, I now faced spending another $250.00.
    What I anticipated from Subaru was well over 100K trouble free miles. The replacement alternator, a factory authorized rebuilt was defective from Day One. The squeal was worse than the original. Once again, I brought the car back in for more service. Again the diagnosis was the alternator, which was replaced under the parts warranty. Within a week the car died in traffic on a very busy highway stranding me with an out of town guest. We had it towed to the dealer: diagnosis- defective alternator cable.
    I had 57,000 trouble free miles. The warranty is 60,000 miles. At 63,000 miles the car began to fall apart. I exceeded the Subaru recommended service interval by 100%.
    In the first 70,000 miles I changed the oil 18 times.
    Not one month later while on a vacation trip, the car stopped running stranding my wife on the left shoulder on a very busy 75 MPH interstate at 11:00 PM 500 miles from home. Taken to a local dealer the diagnosis was a rod through the block. Destroyed engine.
    Needless to say, I am not happy. I had anticipated reliability equivalent to my 30 years of experience with similar vehicles. What I have is a car that has cost me $3,300.00 in repairs when I consider it to be barely broken in. I selected this car based on its reputation for reliability. Myth: A fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology. A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal
    Looking at the Edmunds website, I see numerous mentions of the odor that presaged the complete failure of my engine. I hope I can warn those Subaru owners before they learn the same expensive lesson I learned.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    about your Subaru problems. My wife and I once owned a Loyal wagon years ago. Great in snow, ice, you name it.. at about 60K I had to have the top of the engine rebuilt!
    The Outback is a nice looking wagon by the way..
    Good luck..
  • orangelebaronorangelebaron Member Posts: 435
    I've been thinking about the Forester and OBS for awhile. Don't like the cloth arm rests in the 03 Forester and lack of decent rear leg room either.
    The OBS has ugly itchy interior cloth and no side bags available.
    Well... I finally checked out the new CRV and all the features for 22K!!! Comfortable seats...rear seats recline! lots of storage...deep area in back! Arm rests are vinyl (the way they should be). Bumpers are unpainted even on the top model which is a plus for New York (no scratches to worry about).
    Now I almost forgot about Subaru!
    But wait.... the Mitsubishi Outlander is coming...
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    has cross-posted this message all over Edmunds. He must be on a crusade to prove all happy Subie owners are nuts...

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    We are nuts! ;-)

    This guy is a troll, I've seen dozens of exact copies of that post and not one follow-up, a clear sign of trolling.

    Gary: $22k can buy a WRX wagon, which has side air-bags and will blow away anything even close in price.

    -juice
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    For a 4cyl CRV?? Yet another one takes the bait.
    I purchased a late 2001 Escape XLT V6 with tinted glass, step bars, 4whl ABS, console, every options but the moonroof to say the least, 6CD changer Mach system.. For 22K!! Granted I had a $500 Ford coupon also.. 22K is way too much for a CRV...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I was recently quoted $21,500 for an EX manual, that's probably an auto. The EX does have side air bags and a moonroof, but not heated seats or leather.

    We bought a Legacy L for under $18 grand, minus some fancy equipment but with ABS, AWD, PW/PL/PS, cruise, and keyless.

    -juice
  • carseeker4carseeker4 Member Posts: 228
    This is long, but I hope it will be helpful for those investigating Hyundai Santa Fe. It will be objective (I'm not a Hyundai-phile...like the Saturn-philes and Honda-philes out there).

    Well at 5041 miles on our Pine Green Santa Fe GLS 4WD V6, its time for an objective review. So here goes:

    Catastrophic (life threataning) problems: none. I'm still alive!

    Major problems (engine/tranny internals): none.

    Significant problems (parts peripheral to the drivetrain):
    At 469 miles the car began to run very erratically. It never stalled (hey, its not a Tribscape!), but to be safe and not to void the warranty, I had it towed to the dealer. (Hyundai roadside assistance worked fine, by the way).
    Problem was a "throttle position sensor". One day at the dealers; fixed with no hassle. (Fred Beans in Doylestown, PA, I'd recommend them to anyone).

    Minor problems: Slightly rust-stained left rear wheel hub, replaced with no hassle by Fred Beans.

    Annoying things:
    STILL not REALLY enough driver leg room (I complained about it on my Lumina too!). With the seat all the way back and at max height, its "OK". The dealer said he had not heard of the seat rail lengthening thing, so if anybody has info, please let me know....thx
    The "brow" of the window sits low and I have to bend my head to look at red lights when I'm first in line at the light! (I guess I'd better run more yellow lights!). Otherwise, head room is fine.
    The 12V power adapters run ONLY when the ignition is ON. I'm sure this is a safety feature, but so much for charging the cell phone in the car at night!
    Slight dash creak in colder weather (below 60 F) and on bumpy roads (which in PA is most roads!).
    Slight whistle at very high speeds ( &) to *) MPH....encrypted to avoid state police spies!
    ;-0 ).
    City gas mileage between 17-18, but it seems to be getting better. Hopefully, it will hit that 19 mark! Highway mileage (23 w/4WD) is right on, and maybe a bit conservative.
    Cool things:
    Rear cargo area is great. YES, I know the seats don't go totally flat...stop knitpicking! (oops). We've hauled a coffee table (aka the Truckville commercial!) and a 6 ft dogwood tree and will be going on vaca soon. Can't wait.
    V6 is relatively quiet at cruising speed which is why I wanted it. Power output is acceptable for the 4WD.
    LOVE the light thing...you can leave the lights on and when you turn the ignition off the headlights go off and when you open the door the dash light turns off. When you get back in, it all goes in reverse. Like having daytime running
    lights. A cool, unadvertised feature.
    Seats are comfortable and firm (needs more legroom, didn't I mention that?!).
    Interior is the BEST-designed of all the mini-SUVS, not boring like the CRV or Trib. Yeah, a bit plasticy, but still cool (and, hey, we looked in a Volvo with an all leather interior and it looked plasticy!).
    Exterior is a tad overdone but not ugly. In fact the mean-looking prow and the smooth curvaceous rear add a mixed-personality to the vehicle. Very interesting styling.
    4WD and ABS functioned VERY well in the only snowstorm we had a chance to ride in. I'm looking forward to winter (especially with it being near 100 F today!)! I wonder how
    the SF will do on the BEACH!

    All in all, we really like this car. Reliability-wise it has been no worse than any American car we have owned, although I doubt it will come up to a Honda...but then you don't have the 3-month
    wait, the ridiculous prices for underpowered vehicles, the bland styling and the arrogant sales and service, either! I say its still
    the Hyundai gamble (lots of miles to go yet!) and we will see how it works out, but so far, I'm impressed...just a bit nervous, that's all!
    I hope this helped anyone looking. Happy Independence Day and God Bless America! (and Canada, and Korea, and Brazil and Japan, and
    China, and India and Kenya and...I'd better stop).
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Major problems - NONE
    Minor problems - Tailgate/glass was squeaking. Fixed myself.
    LIkes - Very powerful V6, responsive. What I feel to be the best powertrain/engine combo in this segment.
    Dislikes - Its common knowledge the interior could be upgraded a bit. Although the plastics are no worse nor better than a RAV4 or CRV. Major upgrade on interior coming for 2003 and this issue will be done..
    Overall I am really enjoying my Escape. I have towed my two jet skiis with no problems. Took a trip to Southern Oregon and loaded the Escape down with 2 bikes ontop and two in the tow hitch along with gear. Averaged 24.7MPG at average speed of 70mph. A very reliable vehicle. Would recommend this vehicle to anyone..
  • carseeker4carseeker4 Member Posts: 228
    the world isn't limited to Honda-philes! I welcome ALL to check the Hyundai Santa Fe problems board vs. the Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute problems board. I understand the frequency of the Tribscape problems will be higher due to the fact that they sell higher volume. Just check the nature of the problems and I still think the RATIO of quality issues with the Tribscape is higher given the volume of sales than the Santa Fe. Scape, you could have posted this at any time over the past 6 months! Why did you wait until I posted something?! You have some kind of hidden agenda! You didn't have the guts to join my discussion a couple months back on American car quality issues (especially unions!) on the Social Issues board, even after I invited you there! Fair enough, I will leave it up to the people to check the NHTSA site (Tribscape under investigation for recall on the stalling issue) and other forums (Yahoo boards on Ford/Mazda for example). I will tell you all one thing: I test drove and parked the Tribute (basically a Ford) and the Santa Fe side by side, kicked the tires, slammed the doors, banged around the interior....and I chose the Sante Fe... see ya...
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    bit of buyers remorse her carseeker.. Why is it ok for you to bash the Escape/Tribute? Is it only ok for you to give a review an noone else?? I didn't bash the Hyundia Santa Fe once in my review of my Escape, but in your review you continually bash the Escape/Trib.
    The Escape/Trib are not as problem prone as you want so badly for everyone to believe. There are thousands upon thousand of satisfied Escape/Trib owners on the net in other chat rooms and clubs.
    The Santa Fe is ugly. Its styling is always in question. I see VERY few of these on the road. I see mostly CRV's, RAV4's and Escape/Tribs. I see more Saturn VUE's than Santa Fe's!! Heck, the 4cyl RAV4 beats the V6 in the Santa Fe! LOL! and the CRV with its new 2.6 makes it even worse for the Santa Fe.. I chose an Escape and at 12,347 miles with NO problems, I am 100% satisfied and would recommend one to anyone.. See ya!
  • carseeker4carseeker4 Member Posts: 228
    Not me. I'm fine with the Santa Fe. Yes, I know there's a bit of risk there, but if I had to constantly worry about whether the car would stall if it were going downhill at 40 mph, I'd would be very happy! Which is why I backed out of my Trib deal.
    I once again challenge all to read the Mazda Tribute/Ford Escape problems board board and see scape's cavalier treatment of those suffering from the Tribscape stalling problem.
    Truth is, scape, if that review were posted by anyone other than you I wouldn't have given it a second thought. But your timing was VERY curious and your agenda...is well, is whatever your agenda is! (I'm still guessing union given your comment a couple months ago about Korean wages!).
    I wish everyone the best, regardless of what their purchase is!
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