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Better check the Santa Fe problem board, there are plenty of problems on there...
You started all this carseeker, not me..
The Santa Fe is not as hot of a seller as you want so badly to believe. The styling is what turns the majority of people off. give it another 5 years and your vehicle will look very dated with that very strange styling...
Hope you enjoyed putting another American out of work...
As far as the raw numbers are concerned:
- Mazda Tribute/Ford Escape problems board
1538 posts, most recent July 3.
- Hyundai Santa Fe problems board
(I've actually posted there, too!)
299 posts, most recent June 26.
I won't argue, scape, that the Tribscape sells more volume than the SF and that will automatically produce more problems. Also, all the problems boards have repeat posters and chains of posts as frustrated people try to find solutions. There are more repeat posters and chains of posts on the Tribscape board. Volume of sales has something to do with it. Also, maybe it has to do with the fact the Hyundai is being more sensitive to its customers' concerns and problems. Perhaps the AMERICAN car manufacturers need to be as responsive to AMERICAN customers' issues.
Steve/Tidester....I know you'll ding me for being off topic, but a couple months back (May, I think) I challenged scape to join me over on the Social Issues board and he didn't bother. So... ding away! I can't let blind attitudes go unchallenged.
Steve
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You too can experience this same sort of thing: dis a Ford Escape and get involved in a posting contest with Scape2!
and Steve, I stand "dinged"....
Be that as it may, this board has been dead for a while but I think its subject is still relevant, so I think owners of these aforesaid vehicles like scape and juice etc, ought to give their appraisals of their vehicles every 5000 miles or so. One of the reasons I was drawn to this topic was to help in an evaluation of these vehicles, since they sort of stand as "one of a kind" in the market (for now!, that will probably change), and they are all popular. My whole goal in posting my 5000 mile review was to help others in their evaluation of these vehicles. I'd keep SPECIFIC discussions on these vehicles (parts, add-ons, glowing praise and problems) to the subject vehicles' boards, but here, just to post our reviews to help those looking with their decision. I posted my review on the Santa Fe board as it was posted here. I won't post any more Tribscape dings....but I will post to those who are concerned and steer them to the problems boards of any of these vehicles (heh, the Forester doesn't have one!, and perhaps we should add the CRV to the list). The reviews should contain likes and dislikes about the features and any defects in the cars during the aforesaid interval. Carseeker rests. <<gavel slam noise>>
Subaru owners are clever - they lump all their problem posts under the rubric of Subaru Crew - General Maintenance & Repair II. Right Juice? ;-)
Steve
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Juice, perhaps you can comment on that. I know that Consumer Reports rate Subies and Hondas the highest in their reliability ratings with some justification, but here is one point that I agree with scape on, CR tends to be biased toward these models...in my opinion, maybe not in the reliability ratings, but in their "opinions" and writeups. I attribute that somewhat to a Ralph Nader-ish type of mentality, and they'll be biased toward "earth-friendly" vehicles when comparing them to similar vehicles in a given class. I stated this months ago in the posts when this was brought up on this board. I DO see PLENTY of Outbacks and Foresters on the Subaru lots around here, I think Subaru is losing ground in the "cute ute" class, since the advent of the Escape/Tribute, CRV and Santa Fe. I honestly don't consider them "true" mini-utes because they lack the ground clearance, ride height and cargo capacity of the 3 aforementioned vehicles. That being said, to replace our Pontiac (which is an American car quality ...uh... story all to itself!) my wife would like a Subaru Outback sedan, if they are still around in 3 years! But, since we already have the Santa Fe, which meets my ground clearance/power (v6)/cargo requirements, the drivetrain and ground clearance won't be an issue then.
How does your vehicle do going up major, steep hills at highway speeds? Maybe there was just a problem with the individual vehicle I test drove. If I lived in a relatively flat location, I wouldn't worry, but I live at 6,000 feet and commute to sea level every day on high speed freeways. I went through 2 auto Nissan trannys in one year, and don't want to go through that again. Thanks for your input.
As to whether something is a "real sport ute" or not: much virtual ink is wasted on such assessments. Let us not throw stones in a glass house, lest we all get nasty cuts.
RE: CR. Again, much virtual ink under the bridge. CR tends to favor the reliable, and it is conservative in its assessment of reliabilty, looking at years of records and whole lines of cars when guessing where a particular model will be reliable. Thus a vehicle or line of vehicles could make strides in reliability and not get the recognition deserved for some time. Subaru for example. As a line, Subaru's actual reliability stats with CR look to be as good as Toyota and Honda, but that pesky Very Good is stuck on the whole line, when Excellent is probably more appropriate. And in test drives, CR still does not seem to know how to drive an all-wheel drive car and what they do in emergency situations.
Horsepower to pounds of vehicle, I believe that Subarus enjoy an advantage over Santa Fe, hence a peppier acceleration.
carseeker, in your attempt to make the Escape/Trib look problematic you even say "There are more repeat posters" "sales volumes" the Escape/tribute sell at 3-4x more than the Santa Fe. Are you trying to say just because the Escape/tribute has more posts than the Santa fe that its more problematic or less reliable?
Steve
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Extremely impressed.
Zippy, refined, lots of room, best handling of any mini-ute, lowest low-speed crash costs of any small-ute, very smart/sporty looking, comfortable & are flying off the dealer's lot as fast as they can get them.
Subaru has a winner here. Check them out.
One of the 'newer' features added to automatic trannys (which is about 12 years old now) are the locking torque converters which results what almost looks like a mini 'shift' occuring if your watching your tachometer.
At about 80 (you didn't hear that!), the SF runs at about 3050 RPM and the Grand Am runs at about 2500. Of course the SF weighs nearly 600 lbs more and has AWD, so its tough to tell whether that higher rev in the SF is natural for the type of vehicle or the SF uses older tranny technology!Not that I am disappointed with that, the only thing it might affect is gas mileage. I bought the vehicle for purposes other than top performance (either in acceleration or gas mileage).
I haven't driven the new CRVs, mainly because I disliked the earlier ones so much. I was more impressed with the Forester (though I haven't looked at the 2003 yet) and am leaning that way. It gives me the 5 speed option and well known ability in both snow and dry roads.
I agree with Scape2 that the styling of the Santa Fe is one of its biggest liabilities. Those front fender humps just look goofy (only my opinion of course). Of course the Escape has its own styling challenges. I think it looks sharp from every angle but the front where that big expanse of gray cladding just looks ridiculous. IMO the Tribute's styling is much better executed. And before you go faulting the Forester's styling, yes I know it won't win any awards although the 2003's look is significantly improved.
-Frank P.
And as to cargo capacity: CR does a "box test" -- a variable sized box thing is put into the cargo area and the box is sized to best fit the cargo area. Forester came in second, and over Santa Fe. Forester 35.5; Santa Fe 33.5 cubic feet; RAV 36.5. Forester also beat Subaru Outback and Legacy.
even they have moved it into the "wagon" class. Perhaps Steve can give us an explanation for why the Forester/OB was excluded from the 2001 Mini SUV test.
Looks are a matter of opinion of course. I'm not thrilled at the looks of the front of the Santa Fe but overall, its just more interesting than the Forester. The Escape is just a shrunken Exploder and the Trib truly is an elegant-looking SUV....but the SF interior beats them all in my opinion... I can't figure out why Mazda left a column shifter on the Trib when its a SPORT utility vehicle.
goldencouple....the SF cargo area has suited my needs fine so far....and I can actually tow something if I want to.... I agree the SF has wide rear wheel wells thus reducing its minimum floor width in comparison to the Forester, I think that is where the Forester won out. I'll give the Forester that one, but I'll take the V6, the additional ground clearance and ride height and, yes, the styling....thank you.
One thing I'd encourage potential buyers to try out is the rear hatch mechanism. The Santa Fe has a very slick liftgate with glass that opens separately, compared to the CRV, RAV4 and some others that swing out to the side. Doesn't seem like a big deal, but when you're loading groceries, etc. it can make things a lot easier.
One final thing I like about the Santa Fe - not that I ever plan to try this out:
http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/photo_comp_smsuv.htm
Realistically, these little SUVs are being used as family haulers more than anything else, so safety is a top concern of mine. All in all, a great little vehicle for what we need, and one we plan on keeping for a good long while.
-Jason
-Jason
The 2003s have arrived, better than ever. And they already took over the best-in-class spot from the Escape in the IIHS bumper basher tests. The last Forester was tops until the Escape arrived, but that didn't last long.
Also, if you look at the details of the Santa Fe and Forester IIHS offset crash tests, they are similar, except the Forester's score for structure is slightly worse, and the Santa Fe's score for head injury is slightly worse. I dunno about you, but I would rather have my head intact instead of my car's structure. Both score well but the way I interpret the results, I'd give the Forester the tie breaker. Headless horsemen may disagree. ;-)
The new Forester may already have been tested, and I've heard from insiders that it's better still.
Of course Edmunds didn't test a Forester at the time, they knew the new model was coming.
But don't let me stop you from buying a WRX, no fair!
Steve: our GM&R thread is mostly about maintenance, actually. There are some less active problems threads, but those even cover things like "I can't figure out how to attach the lower seat belt anchor", an actual post. Plus we try to be a helpful bunch so there are 5 posts with suggestions for each problem that is brought up.
-juice
-Jason
-mike
Bob
tincup...Estribfre refers to my prior posts about the Escape/Tribute/CRV/SantaFe.... I got tired of
typing those in. I did not even consider the
Freelander which is a true off-the road vehicle (like the Liberty) with absolutely no head room for average sized people...I sat in one... Didn't last 15 seconds in it....overpriced for what you get, too... the Liberty was the first mini-SUV I test drove and I hated the handling. Next one was the Escape and loved it compared to the Lib.
juice.... I didn't cite over all stats, just what I saw on the lot of my Subie dealer as of last week. I also base that on the incentives being offered. Subaru seems to have been offering financing incentives longer than any of the other import manufacturers, telling me they're looking to move inventory. I have seen one 2003 Forester on the roads. Looks like a small Highlander, which is an improvement ... they rounded off the edges a bit. But without increased torque, power and clearance, it didn't meet my criteria.
Subaru had $0-500 incentive on the left over 2002s, but that's hardly uncommon in this segment, especially for an outgoing model.
-juice
Juice -- what I should have said was that Edmunds' Subaru owners have fewer problems posts because of Patti (and the other helpful members) :-)
Steve
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..steve... OK, just thought I'd ask. I leave it for the Subie fan club to ask the editors why the OB/Forester was omitted from the 2001 mini-SUV test.
BTW, I checked this week's Automotive News, and no incentives are listed for the 2003 Forester, neither rebates nor special financing.
-juice
When I reread the comparison article, Carseeker4, it does seem that the eds omitted the Forester because it wasn't "new" (don't know about the Outback). Hopefully we'll get an update for the '03 models. Feel free to use the Feedback Form to encourage the editors to do so :-)
Steve
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*cough* Patti *cough*
The Forester just earned a Best Pick rating from the IIHS for its offset crash test results, the only SUV in this topic to do so! :-)
www.iihs.org
-juice
Reliability won't match the best, but that's my forecast. The L series isn't that reliable, for instance.
I sat in one at a Car Show, and found the seats a bit spongy. They are roomy, and I like the idea of ding resistant side panels.
But full MSRP is a tough sell in this segment.
-juice
I would agree with most of your points. Yes, VUE VTi tranny, has had some supplier quality problems. As to reliability, I do agree that Saturn sedans (L-series) may not match the established standards of Camrys/Accords. But their S-series sedans have been around for a long time and been accepted as a realiable model (recommended here in Edmunds as a reliable re-sale purchase model).
Yes, 1999-2000 L-series has had a few issues, when it was introduced - but the new 2001 L-Series has been ranked #1 in JDPower in Initial Quality (103 v/s 125-range for Honda/Nissan and Toyota does not even figure in Top 3).
Saturn has had 50% repeat customers inspite of having only one Model for the years 1990-2000. Service is again ranked very high in JDPower rankings (#2 with only Lexus ranked above). Of course, Saturn's no-haggle,no-hassle policy has made Saturn #1 in JDPower Sales satisfaction survyes for 3 years running. I would strongly put Dealer experience/servicing as much important as the Quality of the car/SUV. Again, that's my personal opinion, though.
While not contending that Saturn is the best model around, the above are reasons enough for someone to consider Saturn along with Toyota/Honda/Subaru/Nissan.
As of my personal experience, I have a 91 Accord and am in the market for a new sedan/mini-SUV and I found the Honda/Toyota/Nissan dealer experience here not-so-pleasant.. Their do-not-care attitude has forced me to consider Saturn also.
Had a re-look at my post - looks pretty long !!
;~}
Oh - and other folks - If you're shopping, stop by the Subaru chat on Thursday nights! We'd love to have you!
Patti
-Jason
Ed
Steve
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Steve
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We test drove one decided against it for one reason - how the windshield is set. It slopes forward quite a bit, and there are (what I consider large) pieces of plastic between where the windshield attaches and the front side windows. This a huge blind spot for me and it completely psyched me out. None of the other vehicles on this board has this.
Right after we test drove the Vue we looked at an RX300. It was set up in a very similar way, but at least the RX300 had a window in the plastic, so you had some visibility.
I agree that the S-series has been good, but the Vue seems to share powertrains with the L-series. Plus the S was Saturn exclusive, the Vue is a GM platform (and engine, and tranny). Hence my expectations aren't as high as for the S.
I agree about the sales experience, but my suggestion? See if you can find a no-haggle dealer near you. Here in DC we have Fitzmall.com, which sells Subaru, Nissan, and Toyota. No Honda, unfortunately. It's like at Saturn, except you don't pay MSRP, so it's even better.
In a different thread, I compared our Legacy wagon to an L series wagon, and we got better prices, with AWD thrown in to boot.
-juice