Suzuki Grand Vitara vs Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape vs Saturn

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Comments

  • bessbess Member Posts: 972
    Even the v6 mini-suv's get equal to or better milage than mini-vans (which usually have even larger V6s)

    However, you can get similar performance with a 4cylinder mini-suv compared to a v6 minivan. (remember, these mini-suv's are much more than big cars).
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    Last time I checked, volcanoes/fires don't release benzene, toluene, xylene, and ethylbenzene.

    But they do release sulphur dioxide, hydrogen sulphide, hydrochloric acid, benzene and benzene derivatives, assorted aerosols laden with heavy metals including mercury and a variety of radionuclides, etc.

    Of course, when Nature makes it we call it part of the cycle but if YOU do it - shame on you! ;-)

    tidester
    Host
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  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    Lets not talk about fires - there is a big one burning around LA now. Luckily it is not my mountain going up in flames - I'm just beyond the other end of the Angeles National Forest. But I'm still on pins and needles, knowing that it could easily be my area next.

    I briefly looked at the Matrix/Vibe when they first came out. I didn't like the styling on either one - MUCH prefer the Subies. I liked all of this group more.

    jaserb - thanks for the info on the turbo! I didn't know that it would make a difference at altitude - I just assumed that all that computer sensor stuff they now put in cars would automatically compensate for the lack of air up here. The house is only at 6,000 feet, so it might not mean that much. But I do often hike near here above 8,000 feet, and love to travel to other mountain ranges.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I also grew up in a Ramcharger's Backseat. That was also my first car, man I miss that car! :(

    -mike
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    California, a wonderful place! Mother Nature is telling people not to move there:

    Fires
    Mud Slides
    Riots
    Earthquakes

    What more do you want? Hee hee
    j/k

    -mike
  • bessbess Member Posts: 972
    can't we just all get along..
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Don't mind Paisan busting on you, he thinks the Adirondacks are "mountains." He probably has a framed copy of that New Yorker cover with the western boundary of the US being the Pine Barrens hanging on his wall....

    Steve
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  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    :)

    -mike
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    the Adirondacks are "mountains."

    ROFL!!

    tidester
    Host
    SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Well, they are pretty and there's lots of good canoeing lakes and rivers up that way. Make a nice road trip up there in your small SUV if Mike doesn't run you down hauling 80 in his Trooper pulling a 3,500 pound boat ....

    (just busting on ya, Paisan ).

    Steve
    Host
    SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
  • jaserbjaserb Member Posts: 820
    (as I look out my window at the 13k foot peaks)... Yeah, all the computer stuff keeps your engine from choking and pinging from too rich a mixture - in the old days you used to have to jet your carbs for high altitude work (not that I was around in the old days, but I've worked on 4 wheelers and such). Even so, less O2 means less power, and a turbo does a nice job of compensating for the thinner air.

    Oh, and we had a fire about 2 months ago that made it to within 50 yards of my subdivision - I live right at the edge of the mountains. I woke up one morning to see TV crews broadcasting from the other end of the street I live on! Very surreal...

    -Jason
  • storytellerstoryteller Member Posts: 476
    I'm not sure what point anonymous was making in #2896, but I'll run with it. We don't appreciate how elastic our demand for space is. My friends with the Suburban don't have enough room to carry all their dogs, shotguns, food, clothing, cameras, etc. So they drag a trailer 500 miles when they go hunting once a week, parking the trailer at the motel. They can "get by" with just the storage space of the Suburban while they actually hunt.

    Obviously, they don't *need* that much space, although they would tell you they do. But as long as gas is this cheap, there is no reason for them to not buy a Suburban or not drag that trailer stuffed with so much gear. They do it because it is convenient, and if gas were priced more appropriately they would find a way of traveling with far less stuff (for example, eating in restaurants rather than bringing groceries with them).

    I used to do my pheasant and grouse hunts from a Civic hatchback. That was in 1976 when a Civic was still a sub-compact. I had to leave some stuff at home and I had to pack carefully, but it worked. So it gets hard to say how much space and towing power anyone "needs."

    I don't blame people who buy big vehicles and stick trailers behind them, although my friends know what they are doing to this planet and are severely embarrassed by it. I blame political leaders who really should know better but who maintain gas prices so low that people are encouraged to consume gas profligately.

    Steve
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Next time I'm up there I'll shoot some pics for yahall :)

    -mike
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    Escape 18/25
    VUE 19/24

    Montana 19/26
    Odyessy 18/26

    It would seem to me that the SUVs get slightly less mileage but are smaller and have less room. You definitely get less with a small SUV. Don't get me wrong though.. The difference is not big, we don't need that much room and a small SUV will be parked in our driveway at some point over the next 2 or 3 years.
  • soccermum02soccermum02 Member Posts: 47
    Our CR-V gets 11 L / 100km (26mpg) city and 9.4 L / 100 km (30mpg) Highway this is a lot better than a minivan. It is a little worse than published estimates of 8.9 - 10.9L/100 km, but I guess that my driving habits are the cause of that.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "That locking feature does it lock it to a certain MPH? or is it just to Xmph?"

    I believe Ford wants you to stay at or under 55 mph when in 4X4 "On" mode. At least that's what the driver's side visor says on the 2002's. I don't think the manual lists any speed limit.
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    You forgot a few. Winter flooding, houses washing into the ocean, erosion from high tides.

    I wish all these things would convince people to move away from here - LA used to be a nice place to live in. Now it is a nice place to be from. Why do you think I live 75 miles away from work? I'd rather hazard the fires (I live in Los Padres National Forest), and earthquakes (I'm within a mile of the San Andreas fault), and occasionally getting snowed in rather than listen to sirens, someone else's music and screaming neighbors all night.

    jason - Did you have your car packed? I don't think that would be fun at all, and I'm glad you made out all right.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    You forgot a few. Winter flooding, houses washing into the ocean, erosion from high tides.
    God really doesn't want us there! ;)

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Jason: a turbo will arrive for MY2004, probably late spring or summer next year.

    The question is, what size and output? In Japan they have a 2.0l making 217hp, tuned for more torque then the WRX. It's very fast, with 0-60 in the low 6 second range. Basically quick enough to blow the doors off any current offering in the class.

    But we may get a 2.5l turbo with less boost and less ultimate power, but better throttle response and off-boost torque. That would likely be not quite a quick, but more livable. I'm thinking 7s range to 60, something like that, maybe 200-210hp or so.

    At altitude, yeah, a turbo carries a huge advantage. They just use the blow-off valves less, and still make close to full power, when normally aspirated engines are wheezing and making far less than full power.

    Don't race a WRX at high elevations.

    -juice
  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    "I believe Ford wants you to stay at or under 55 mph when in 4X4 "On" mode. At least that's what the driver's side visor says on the 2002's. I don't think the manual lists any speed limit"

    I am usually going 25 or less in 4Hi, and maybe 1-5MPH in 4Lo.

    What type of car was this one you're talking about?
  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    "...jason - Did you have your car packed? I don't think that would be fun at all, and I'm glad you made out all right."

    gal, is yours? From the sounds of it, I'd have a bug-out bag ready to go at all times with essentials. Then, I'd also have an empty bag or box to throw keepsakes in in a hurry, if I was you.

    I don't think I could live like that.

    I love New England!

    I feel sorry for the people who have to go through things like fires, floods, earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, etc. ... BUT I don't think taxpayers should keep footing the bill if people turn around and say they want to rebuild on deltas, fault lines, barrier beaches, etc. either.

    God Bless America!
    Remember 9/11
    RKBA!
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    I'm just comparing V6 SUVs to V6 vans. CRV is a 4 cyl.
  • jaserbjaserb Member Posts: 820
    We went to bed watching the flames on a ridge about 5-7 miles away. Yeah, probably shoulda kept an eye on it, but when the kid's teething you sleep when you can. They evacuated the north end of our subdivision about 4 AM. I live on the south end. We woke up when my dad called about 7 AM to ask if we were OK, which is when we saw how close the fire had come overnight. There's a little canyon that acted as a firebreak and kept the fire from coming up behind our house. For about the next 10 days we got to watch the helicopters dumping water on hotspots.


    Now, of course, they're worried about mudslides in the area that was burned, so it looks like Utah and Cali have something in common ...


    Here's a newspaper story with a picture my neighbor took. Yeah, a little too close for comfort.

    http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,405015291,00.html


    -Jason

  • jaserbjaserb Member Posts: 820
    Sounds like a good idea to me! Oh, you probably meant don't race AGAINST a WRX at high altitudes...

    -Jason
  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    "from New Zealand. They use Foresters for their forest service agency (NSW State Forests), and have just updated their fleet to the new more powerful 2.5 model.


    http://www.subaru.co.nz/news/index.html?id=400"


    That is misleading. Those Foresters have a 4-Low, which isn't available here. That was one of the reasons they liked it, from the article.


    It would help make it easier for me to buy one if they had that here, that's for sure!

  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    Are those the Sierra http://www.sierratimes.com/ mountains?

    Sorry for the OT geography question.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    dindak: but if we want to go truly apples-to-apples, let's compare V6 AWD vans to the V6 SUVs.

    The AWD Dodge 3.8l gets 17/23, which actually ain't bad. The Montana AWD gets 18/24.

    So then the Escape a Vue actually carry the (small) advantage.

    BTW - we've been lobbying for a low range on the Forester for years. At least we got the Hill Holder back, and the turbo is coming!

    -juice
  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    I don't see too many posts on here about the VUE.

    ???

    Also, wouldn't Axiom fit into this category? The new Buick Aztek? The new "cute" Range Rover?
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    still... it's an interesting read. And, yeah, we've been bugging SOA for some time to bring back the dual-range tranny. We used to have it here, and it's available everywhere other than North America.

    Bob
  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    We meaning who?
  • soccermum02soccermum02 Member Posts: 47
    Good point. I think you might have the Escapes mpg wrong. Isn't it closer to 24/28mpg?
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    All the folks here on the Edmunds "Subaru Crew," Juice, myself, Ken, Ed, and many others who's names escape me now. We've been talking about this issue for at least 2 years.

    Bob
  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    Just several individuals. I thought maybe there was like some large group of like thousands or a dealer's network or something.

    I assume SOA=Subaru Of America, right?

    Does SOA have any reason to listen to several individual customers? Really, I am trying to figure this out. I am on your side, but I guess a little cynical they'd do it for us little people.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "I am usually going 25 or less in 4Hi, and maybe 1-5MPH in 4Lo.

    What type of car was this one you're talking about?"

    Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute. It's not a true 4Hi though.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "I am usually going 25 or less in 4Hi, and maybe 1-5MPH in 4Lo.

    What type of car was this one you're talking about?"

    Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute. It's not a true 4Hi though.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "Good point. I think you might have the Escapes mpg wrong. Isn't it closer to 24/28mpg?"

    For the 4cyl, yes. The V6 is 17/23 I believe. I and a few others have been able to get 25+ from the V6 on the highway though. I average about 20-22 in the city. Minivans probably do a little better in the city.

    Your 30 mpg in the CR-V seems a little high. Most people are reporting 27-29 on the highway with the 2002's.
  • daveghhdaveghh Member Posts: 495
    Baggs,

    I was getting 27 to 31 mpg in my CRV when I first bought it last year in November. The I swapped the tires for Blizzacks for winter driving in the Northeast. When I swapped the tires I started getting 24 to 27 mpg and sometimes as low as 22!

    I finally figured out what happened to my mileage! It is the tire pressure, the tire pressure in my first tires where well above 30 psi and my Blizzacks are at 26 psi, the recommended amount. In addition to this, the Blizzacks are much softer tires then the stock tires. So if you want 30+ mpg go with the max psi allowed for your CRV!!! :)
    ________________________________________________________________
    Side note: For those looking for winter tires... I drove the Blizzacks through 3 winters and since last winter the tread lost its suppleness which gives it that extra traction. So, as recommended by Bridgestone, once the tire isn't good for snow you should drive it as a summer tire. I ran this tire all summer and I have put about 13,000 miles on the tire since last winter and they still have a huge tread! I will get a new set of Blizzacks for this winter, then when spring comes around I will put on the old Blizzacks for another summer.
  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    here is something better:

    http://www.high-tec-retreading.com/


    and


    http://www.high-tec-retreading.com/diamond.html


    testimonials:

    http://www.high-tec-retreading.com/testimonials.html


    another one (the parent company?)

    sizes and prices:

    http://www.high-tec-retreading.com/sizes.html


    --------------------------------------------------

    This is a winter tire, and beats the Blizzak.


    TRAIL MASTER A/T


    The Trail MAster A/T provides excellent rideability. This tire is a perfect blend of ice biting traction and quiet comfortable performance. For front and rear axle applications.


    http://www.greendiamondna.com/products2.HTML#

  • daveghhdaveghh Member Posts: 495
    Anonymous02
    Have you had experience with any of these tires?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Anonymous02, you're pushing those retreads pretty hard around the boards - own stock in the company? ;-)


    Lots of other vehicles can be compared in here, but we're about out of room in the title bar. It's ok if you want to go off on an Axiom tangent or whatever.


    To learn about how SOA listens to their customers, check out the Subaru Owners Community. Even better, come to the Subaru chat tonight (hopefully Patti from Subaru will finally be able to get logged in).



    Steve

    Host

    SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    I don't own the tires or the company. I think they sound great, and will be buying some for my next set of tires. I just found out about them and wanted to share. Have heard good things about them, though.

    :-)
  • daveghhdaveghh Member Posts: 495
    Steve: you could shorten the title by doing this....

    Forester vs Santa Fe vs Liberty vs Escape/Mazda Tribute vs Vue

    Instead of....
    Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute vs Saturn Vue

    Then we could have room to add the CRV, Axiom or whatever else!
  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    I don't know much about those, that is why I was asking. Just wondering how they'd compare to some of these.

    Same with Buick thing. (Now THERE's a concept, VW should reintroduce the THING!)
  • daveghhdaveghh Member Posts: 495
    Anonymous,
    I like the idea behind those tires I really do, however I would be a little nervous about a retreaded tire and because it is such a small company I wonder if they would have enough resources to test them for safety. Just a thought...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The Subaru Crew is very organized. We have a weekly chat, and have hosted chats with drivers of the US SCCA Rally championship (Ramana Lageman), plus pro atheletes sponsored by Subaru (Gorge Games), regional chief mechanics, etc. Karl Schieble, the guy from the "cute car" VW Beetle ads, switched to Subaru last year and sent us this signed poster:


    image


    One of our members is an SoA rep and works with dealers, so we get freebies and VIP passes to the Philly Auto show, stuff like that, it's great. She also gathers our feedback and forwards it to products planning.


    When the new Forester came out, 8 things we asked for were incorporated. The Hill Holder was one, a 2nd trip odo, an outside temp gauge, a lit key ring, side air bags, bigger standard wheels, etc.


    Still, we'd asked for many, many more, so we didn't get everything we wanted, like the low range.


    -juice

  • daveghhdaveghh Member Posts: 495
    Juice,

    I think the Subies are a great line of vehicles! I own a CRV but I was considering the WRX wagon and I really like the 2003 Forester.

    I wish Subaru and Honda would offer an "off road" version of the CRV and the Forester. Bigger tires, low range option and maybe stiffer components if necessary. The small SUV's have such a short body length compared to the big offroaders like the H2 and Range Rover so they would be pretty cool!
  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    "Steve: you could shorten the title by doing this....

    Forester vs Santa Fe vs Liberty vs Escape/Mazda Tribute vs Vue

    Instead of....
    Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute vs Saturn Vue"

    (can drop the Mazda and just leave Tribute)

    How about:

    Forester vs Santa Fe vs Liberty vs Escape/Tribute vs Vue vs. Axiom vs. Highlander vs. XTerra vs. Sportage

    For that matter, you could do this also

    Forester/CRV/RAV4/Vitara/Sportage
  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    "I wish Subaru and Honda would offer an "off road" version of the CRV and the Forester. Bigger tires, low range option and maybe stiffer components if necessary. The small SUV's have such a short body length compared to the big offroaders like the H2 and Range Rover so they would be pretty cool!"

    About the only choice in that size is the Sportage, and the quality/reliability is questionable. Also, I find it odd that the small ones don't get a proportionally better gas mileage, but just a LITTLE better.

    Bummer.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    Mileage numbers I quoted for VUE and Escape were right from the Edmunds site.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Dave: that's a topic that is often debated in our group. Some want it, others would rather see the R&D funds go towards Sport rather than Off-Road.

    But the low range can be grabbed right off the shelf, so it should cost little/nothing. iSR Subaru will import anything Subaru makes, so you could get one. Not sure about price.

    Aftermarket vendors do make front limited-slip diffys for Subies, but they're track tuned, not for off-road. About $900.

    You can buy 2" lift kits ($400), 2" lifting springs ($360), bigger tires, etc., and get a Forester to 12" or more total clearance. But then it'll drive like a truck. ;-)

    Primitive sells skid plates, metal or aluminum (a couple hundred or so).

    Remember - people do Rally Cross Subies, lots do, so there is an increasing aftermarket presence for it. SCCA has a chapter for Rally Cross, some call it "Spec Subaru" jokingly. You'll see a couple of grey market EVOs, maybe a 323GTX and an Eclipse, but mostly Subies.

    -juice
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