Suzuki Grand Vitara vs Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape vs Saturn

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  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    there are many others too. I just can't get to all the dealers. ;)

    Also, IIRC, Volvo (V70/S60/S80), I believe is limited to 1100 pounds w/o trailer brakes. Ford is somewhat sneaky on this issue. There is no mention of trailer brakes in their owners manual (at least in my Explorer's manual, and I believe[?] all new Explorer/Expedition manuals). However, if you ask for their "Trailering Guide," which is a brochure, it "urges" people who tow, to have trailer brakes on ALL trailers.

    And, yes, all these vehicles have a much higher maximum* tow rating.

    * = Read the fine print! In the the brochure it will usually say something to the effect: "with proper equipment," which means check the owner's manual. "Proper equipment" is often code for trailer brakes, as well as other possible items.

    Bob
  • clever1clever1 Member Posts: 123
    Of course, the ultra-conservative towing limits listed in vehicle literature are focused on minimizing the manufacturers' and dealers' legal exposure in the event of a driver's poor judgment. Can't really blame them for doing that, I guess. Maybe there should be big ugly non-removable stickers on the back of all vehicles warning owners that improper towing is a safety concern. ;-)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    This is a bit of a peeve of mine. Safety chains on trailers are supposed to be crossed, right? (to support the tongue in case it comes off the hitch ball). Next time you cruise by a trailer, check the chains - if it even has two chains, the odds are probably 50/50 that they aren't crossed.


    I try to avoid trailers like the plague - no telling how many of them are brakeless, overloaded, etc. There oughta be a law!


    If you're wondering if you're doing it right, check out the Towing tips for SUVs for some expert advice.



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  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    << Maybe there should be big ugly non-removable stickers on the back of all vehicles warning owners that improper towing is a safety concern. ;-) >>

    Many already having warning stickers, of some sort, on the hitch. None to my knowledge mention trailer brakes.

    << There oughta be a law! >>

    There are laws. Virtually every state has trailer brake laws. The problem is the state laws often list higher weights than the manufacturers do. Here in Maryland every trailer over 3000 pounds must by law have its own brake system. Well, what about all those vehicles with a manufacturer's limit of 1000 pounds? There's a 2000 pound discrepancy between what the manufacturers say, and what the law requires. To top it off, trailer dealers only comply with the state law, so you won't find any trailers here in Maryland, that are rated under 3000 pounds with trailer brakes. In addition, every trailer dealer that I've spoken to, has been ignorant of vehicle trailer brake restrictions.

    Bob
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I knew there were laws (I think someone posted a good summary link in the Towing discussion a while back), but I'm really disappointed to hear that the trailer dealers aren't up on the braking requirements.

    The ones that really scare me are the home-made trailers overloaded with firewood heading back home at dusk after working in the woods all day.

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  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    They don't need to be crossed. The chains however should be short enough that the tounge won't hit the ground if somehow the ball breaks. In all likelyhood though you'll have the hitch bolts break or the tounge itself, in which case the chains don't do anything. On Electric trailer brake vehicles, if the trailer breaks free from the car, a battery on the trailer automatically applies the brakes.

    -mike
  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    "...The ones that really scare me are the home-made trailers overloaded with firewood heading back home at dusk after working in the woods all day."

    We used to do that when we were kids. Of course, we'd sit on top of the pile of wood, throwing acorns and rotten apples at other cars (until our friends' father who was driving found out!).
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    OK, Mike, then I'll just stick to counting the ones with chains dragging the ground and those either with one chain (or none!). Still too many of those around - there should be a "Coast Guard" auxiliary type organization to help educate towers, like the child seat volunteers. They could run it out of the weigh stations.

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  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    That's a great idea, especially being held at weigh stations.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    That would be nice, I haven't gotten the nerve up to pull into one of those weigh stations to get my truck weighed. The other big thing on boat trailers is that you need to repack the bearings every year and replace em every other year to prevent corrosion etc. Also most boaters get to the ramp after driving 50-100miles and dump it right in the water, the hot bearings hitting the cold water cause them to pre-maturely crack as well.

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    to my local county landfill, to get my 5'x8' brakeless trailer weighed empty (640 pounds), and filled to the brim with leaves (140 pound of *dry* leaves. Wet leaves would have been much heavier). Actually, my Forester could pull that weight, and still be within Subie guidelines. 95% of my trailering is in the fall, to get rid of leaves and yard waste from my property.

    Bob
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Oh yeah, my buddy the catarafter is always redoing his bearings - seems to be an annual Spring thing with him, and his trailer never even hits the water.

    I had a trailer in the mid-70's (homemade by someone else). I knew zilch about towing and maintaining it and didn't learn much while I had it. I figure a big percentage of towers out there are as dumb as I was.

    Steve
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  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    After having a boat trailer fall apart on me about a week after buying a used boat, I did a lot of research on the subject. I also spent about $500 to have new springs, axle, hub, rims, tires, fenders put on it. Now the trailer is like a brand new trailer, I just need to paint the actual frame. That trailer had the bearings go on me a block from the guy's house who I bought it from, then about 2 months later the actual axle bent while towing, that was pretty scary.

    -mike
  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    Most weigh stations in MA are closed. I think you can go to a public scale at the train station, or where they sell loam/gravel/sand/stone.
  • storytellerstoryteller Member Posts: 476
    If you devised the most basic possible test of trailering skills--both the physical and the mental parts of trailering--how many drivers would pass? I was astonished when I started trailering at how tricky it was and how little I knew about it. Driver's ed never touches trailering. State driver's license testing doesn't touch it. Anyone who wants to hitch a trailer to a vehicle can drive public highways with a trailer that is poorly maintained and badly overloaded.

    Steve
  • clever1clever1 Member Posts: 123
    Anyone interested in the Escape/Tribute stalling issue might want to visit the Mazda Tribute/Ford Escape Problems board -- there's a copy posted of one of Ford's written responses to NHTSA investigators.

    My reaction: What a bunch of legal-manuevering hoooey!

    I *sincerely* wish all of you Escape/Tribute owners good luck and safe driving.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    and it makes me sick. Even if the problem is only in a few vehicles (and apparently it is in more than a few), it should not be trivialized to those owners. I would damn well expect my brand new car not to stall! The letter says in some cases it was caused by "poor maintenance"...I ask you, what maintenance could you neglect in LESS THAN A YEAR that could cause your vehicle to routinely start stalling? I feel bad for anyone affected by this mess - cars cost too much to have to put up with this kind of nonsense.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "The letter says in some cases it was caused by "poor maintenance"..."

    Our only stall happened three weeks after we drove it off the lot. "Poor maintenance" had nothing to do with it. I always use good gas like Citgo, BP, or 76 too.

    Even though I am 99.9% sure that our Escape will never stall again, I still follow this issue pretty closely. The NHTSA has closed their initial investigation into the stalls and opened a new one (the engineering investigation) on the same day. The next step is a recall from what I understand.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Hmm Citgo, BP and 76 are the bottom grades as far as I've heard. Not Gaseteria low but not "high" For high I think of Sunoco, Exxon/mobile, Shell.

    -mike
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "Hmm Citgo, BP and 76 are the bottom grades as far as I've heard."

    There are better, and there are worse brands than these. I said good, not the best. Exxon, Mobil, and Shell stations just happen to be few and far between around here. I've never heard anything bad about the others though.

    I forgot about Sunoco. I do use their gas quite often. They, Citgo, and BP have several stations close by. Texaco is really close, but I tend to pass them by all the time for some reason.

    Where can you find quality ratings for gasoline anyway? Please don't say CR either.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    For the most part I think its more the station than the actual gas. Basically you want a station with high turnover (like near an interstate) and one with new pumps and tanks. The longer gas sits in the ground/in tanks the more impurities it picks up and the more water enters it. Older tanks leak, and ones with slow are also poor. Depending on where you live the major brands Sunoco/Exxon/Mobile/BP-Amoco/texaco all come from the same refinery/storage area with different detergents mixed in when the load is picked up.

    -mike
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    NHTSA's own studies that are referenced have found little or no real danger from stalling vehicles. This is not a new issue, vehicles have been stalling from the invention of the internal combustion engine. Vehicle stalling was very common among all manufacturers in the early days of electronic ignitions. I had a 73 Honda that due to the coil location, would regularly stall when it rained. It is certainly an area of concern and it looks like Ford is working on identifying and rectifying the problem.
  • clever1clever1 Member Posts: 123
    baggs: Did you report your stall?

    I suspect the vast majority of owners who have experienced stalling, even repeated stalling, haven't reported anything to anyone if their car restarts after failure. I also wonder how the Ford/Mazda network handles complaints versus repairs -- my guess is that no one is keeping track of the stalls that aren't registered by mechanics. Likewise, not many people go to the trouble of contacting NHTSA and/or their local Consumer Affairs division to "get it in writing".
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Tincup, stalling isn't the issue at hand I think. I think the fact that they released such an untested vehicle for general consumption is more the issue. I dunno just seems like a careless testing or manufacturing process. It is 2002 afterall. But I guess that with the slipping economy manufacturers have to cut costs somewhere.

    -mike
  • clever1clever1 Member Posts: 123
    I am especially appalled by the last paragraph in that letter. For example, although my vehicle was manufactured afterward, some early production Liberties were recalled by NHTSA for: 1) a knee bolster that might come loose and startle the operator; and, 2) a potential flaw in wire insulation that might cause a slight delay in driver-side airbag inflation. What the heck gives with Ford minimizing a random engine stalling (most often at speeds over 35mph) because it "does not represent an unreasonable risk to motor vehicle safety". That's outrageous.
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I don't agree. The Liberty problems were easily identifiable and repairable. In the case of the SRS issue, the delay of Microseconds in deployment would have a huge effect on the effectiveness of the airbag. The Escape-Trib stalling issue is not viewed by even NHTSA as presenting a serious risk of injury or death. It is also a much more complex issue, as there have already been 4 possible causes of these issues, to which solutions are being addressed. Ford has not said they are not addressing the problem in that letter, just that they agree with the Gov'ts own study about the risks of injury or death from this issue.
  • clever1clever1 Member Posts: 123
    tincup: Ford is the one pitching that the problem is not life threatening. NHTSA would not be pursuing a recall if they didn't perceive a significant *safety* issue with the Escape/Trib (or any other defect investigation). Where have you read that NHTSA isn't viewing this as presenting a serious risk?

    From the get-go, this problem has had all the features of bad electronic design in the Escape/Trib. Automotive computers can be very tricky -- the symptoms manifest in erratic mechanical failures, but the root problem can be a tiny solder break, power supply fluctuation, etc. The variables are crazymaking compared to the good old days of tracing an electrical (not electronic) or mechanical malfunction. If someone's car stalls, they might be told it was a fuel system failure, or transmission failure, etc. due to the symptoms, have a mechanical part replaced (under warranty, shops still make their money doing this), and still have the same intermittent problem with the electronics that will crop up again, sometimes in another part. I doubt manufacturers relish the prospect of negotiating an ECM, BCM, etc. redesign and then recalling every vehicle that has a computer with an established flaw -- so much easier and less expensive to stall or use the band-aid approach. (How long did Ford know about the Explorer/Firestone problem before they moved to resolve it? History does not support Ford's proactivity with regard to resolving safety issues.)

    Imagine the law suit of the first person seriously injured or killed because of this. Sad to say, Ford/Mazda are likely cost-factoring that likelihood, as most manufacturers would. If my car stalled, and word was circulating that there may be a manufacturing defect behind that with no solution, I'd be contacting lots of consumer protection agencies to register my concern.
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    Read it again, it references a study done by the Govt. in another stalling case and even gives the title and study number. NHTSA pursues lots of issues with compliance with Federal Standards that have nothing to do with vehicle safety, ie. emission recalls. They do have the responsibility to investigate complaints from consumers, even an engineering evaluation is still investigational. Most recalls today are actually voluntary recalls from the manufacturers that have not been mandated by NHTSA.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It's funny how brand conscious we've become, one guy I spoke to said his uncle delivered gas for a living, and the same stuff went to several different stations and brands.

    Octane is the only reliable measure, and even that doesn't measure the quality of gas, only it's resistance to pre-ignition.

    This stalling issue is strange, because the Duratec engine has been used for years in the Taurus, and those haven't been too bad (about average).

    I actually expected the weak link to be the CD4E tranny. Mazda used it in the 4 cyl auto 626, and those were just horrid. In the 626 topics, you'd be told to avoid that drivetrain combo at all costs.

    -juice
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "baggs: Did you report your stall?"

    Yes I did. I didn't even know that you could until I started searching around for the problem on the web.

    Someone on another forum actually requested the documents from the stalling investigation. As I recall, the NHTSA did send a letter to Ford stating their findings, and that document on the 'problems' board is just Ford's reply to their findings. They (Ford) are just agreeing with the NHTSA's findings in that letter.

    Since 'step 2' of the NHTSA's defect investigation has been opened, it seems to me that they are still trying to figure out what to do about it.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "This stalling issue is strange, because the Duratec engine has been used for years in the Taurus, and those haven't been too bad (about average).

    I actually expected the weak link to be the CD4E tranny."

    Yes, it is rather strange. That's one reason why it has been taking so long to find an overall solution. I still think it is some sort of PCM programming mistake though.

    Cost-cutting can happen at the employee level too.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Tincup I believe works for Ford (actually Range Rover, but that is owned by Ford). He might be slightly biased toward Ford, not his fault, heck I'd be biased a little toward my employer.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Makes sense to me, baggs32.

    -juice
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    I do work for Land Rover, but I would feel the same on this issue regardless of whoever the manufacturer is. One thing to remember, that letter was a dispassionate response from a company to a regulatory agency. They do tend to be written on a factual logical basis and do not read well to people who have had an actual experience or a preconceived bias. There can be no dispute that there is an issue with a percentage of these vehicles stalling, but there are many different opinions on how serious, dangerous, or widespread this problem is.
  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    I think it is (something)(control module?).

    ???
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Power train Control Module, I think.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Envoy owners have also experienced stalling and have been making complaints about it on Town Hall in the last year, so I think Tincup's point about it not being a "new" issue is well taken.

    I've heard that Chevron dumps "techron" in the tanker trucks just before delivery so the otherwise identical gas doesn't wind up at Exxon with techron in it. Makes for good conspiracy theories if nothing else.

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  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Some older CR-V's and Santa Fe's were all recalled for stalling as well. Both of those problems were caused by an easily identifiable part though.

    SF's were stalling due to something around the camshaft being mismanufactured, and the CR-V's were stalling due to premature wear on what I think was a starter wire. I can't remember the exact parts, but both were causing stalls among other things.

    It happens, but I agree that it should not happen to so many people at once.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm surprised it's been so long without a resolution, though. Usually they figure it out pretty quickly.

    -juice
  • daveghhdaveghh Member Posts: 495
    Baggs,

    Which CRV's had the stalling problem? I have never heard of that.
  • clever1clever1 Member Posts: 123
    tincup47: I appreciate your perspective as something of a FoMoCo insider. No doubt that letter was written with some serious consideration by Ford's legal department. Their tactic: attempt to normalize or minimize the issue -- not very creative, but it may be the best they can do for now. Looks to be a very expensive recall -- doubtful that just a few short production runs are at fault since the problem has been cropping up in vehicles manufactured from day one through the 2002 model year.

    Regardless, recalls have been done for much less.

    Sounds like they're focusing on sloppy electronic design and/or integration, which makes lots of sense given the complaints. I hope they figure out what's going on before someone else gets rear-ended or worse. It must be enormously frustrating to be the owner of a randomly stalling car, no matter what the brand. Even owners with otherwise flawless Escape/Tribs will be much relieved to know if a fix is discovered.
  • bessbess Member Posts: 972
    I'm not sure why your 'outraged' as you put it. I was under the impression that you didn't own an Escape or Tribute..

    You claim that 'recalls have been done for much less'. Recalls are generally only issues if there is a safety issue involved. In this case the NHTSA's own findings show there is not a safety hazard with the Escape.

    Also, why are you trying to speak for Escape/Tribute owners by saying 'Even owners with otherwise flawless Escape/Tribs will be much relieved to know if a fix is discovered'?

    In order for one to feel a sense of 'relief' would require one to be feeling 'uneasy' about currently driving their Escape. There are hundreds of thousands of owners who are completely satisfied with their Escape and know it is a safe and reliable vehicle.

    I appreciate your perspective as someone who doesn't like Ford. Your tactic (which has unknown motivation) is to maximize or make more of an issue than there really is. Not very creative but the best you can do for now..
  • clever1clever1 Member Posts: 123
    bess: Are you suggesting that since this isn't my problem, I shouldn't care? WHATEVER. That says more about you than me.

    Where are you getting that "the NHTSA's own findings show there is not a safety hazard with the Escape"? That has yet to be proven.

    I've read more than a few compelling posts here and elsewhere (including the biggest Escape board) from those who have had problems with stalling. For example, one was from a guy who was concerned about his mother freaking out behind the wheel when the engine died. Others are not enjoying their Escape/Tribs because they are constantly on alert for the next stall. Let's see where the recall investigation goes. Meanwhile, it's patently unkind to minimize how annoying and/or scary this situation has been for owners of stalled cars, whether by someone on this board or by a corporation.

    And let me confirm this for everyone: I *do not* have a problem with Ford products. I have owned them, and have had good experiences with them. Once they resolve the stalling issues and confirm it is indeed as reliable as most alternatives, I'd be very comfortable recommending an Escape/Trib to a friend -- it is generally a very good design (I like the Tribute a bit better). I *do* have a problem with corporations that evade issues and dodge accountability. Don't you?
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    There is no dodge or avoiding of responsibility in that letter, just an agreement with the Gov't study. Go back to the escape board that had the original letter you are referencing and see the detailed explanations of what Ford's investigation has uncovered and what they are doing to resolve the issues. One thing everyone has to take into account is that it takes time to diagnose problems like this and time to come up with fixes for them. Manufacturers need to validate repairs before they can issue service actions. They also have to fully identify, diagnose, validate the repair and have parts available or available soon before they can issue a recall or TIB. You can't replace suspected bad parts with the same thing.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    no matter what any PR division of any company says, I believe that a car that stalls without wArning in traffic, going down hills, DOES have a safety-related issue...I am quite sure a majority of drivers will not be aware enough to figure out they can shift to neutral without stopping and restart their vehicles, plus the steering will be heavy, and after one pump of the brakes, the booster function will be gone too.

    I have a friend with a Tribute, and I think these are great vehicles, and I really hope all these seeming shots in the dark to fix this problem have finally paid off, because I truly do NOT want to think of his wife, who is a timid driver already, being behind the wheel of this thing if it does stall unexpectedly while she is driving.

    Let's not buy TOO MUCH into the legalese hype of the Ford corporation, whose wording is such as to not admit liability in the typical manner of lawyers.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • anonymous02anonymous02 Member Posts: 1,538
    1. Make sure your service department has logged calls on this problem, and you are waiting to "hear back from them".

    2. Park you Escape on some RR tracks, and get out.

    3. :-)
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "Which CRV's had the stalling problem? I have never heard of that."

    1999's and earlier. I think the recall involved some other Honda and Acura models too.

    Here's the text from the NHTSA site:

    Year: 1999 Make: HONDA TRUCK Model: CRV Recall Date: 05/20/2002

    Type of Report: Vehicle
    Potential Number of Units Affected: 1000000

    Defect Summary:
    ON CERTAIN SEDANS, COUPES, HATCHBACKS, AND SPORT UTILITY VEHICLES, ELECTRICAL CONTACTS IN THE IGNITION SWITCH CAN DEGRADE DUE TO THE HIGH ELECTRICAL CURRENT PASSING THROUGH THE SWITCH WHEN THE VEHICLE IS STARTED.

    Consequence Summary:
    WORN CONTACTS COULD CAUSE THE ENGINE TO STALL WITHOUT WARNING, INCREASING THE RISK OF A CRASH.

    Corrective Summary:
    DEALERS WILL REPLACE THE IGNITION SWITCH. OWNER NOTIFICATION BEGAN JUNE 14, 2002. OWNERS WHO TAKE THEIR VEHICLES TO AN AUTHORIZED DEALER ON AN AGREED UPON SERVICE DATE AND DO NOT RECEIVE THE FREE REMEDY WITHIN A REASONABLE TIME SHOULD CONTACT HONDA AT 1-800-999-1009 OR ACURA AT 1-800-382-2238.
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    Can I do that with my Taco too? It seems to be developing possible tranny (maybe clutch) problems (synchro?) and I'm reluctant to do anything about a vehicle I hate so much!

    Ah, if only I could get rid of it!
  • daveghhdaveghh Member Posts: 495
    Baggs,
    Thanks.

    My sister has a 99 CRV, I wonder if hers is effected. I should ask her if she recieved a letter.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    In Honda's defense, they found a fix, right?

    It's quite different, IMHO.

    -juice
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