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Comments
I have a sneaking suspicion that the Honda problem is a preventative fix, forseeing a problem.
Unlike the Ford problem, where the vehicles are actually stalling.
I only say this because if you look at the source of the problem.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2002-09-20-honda-warranty_x.htm
If a bearing failed in a transmission, wouldn't the vehicle stall and come to an abrupt stop? Kind of like slamming on the brakes.
I'll bet that the Honda/NHTSA letters were very similar to what most of you read on the Escape problems board. No safety risk, low percentage of vehicles, yadda yadda yadda...
"I have a sneaking suspicion that the Honda problem is a preventative fix, forseeing a problem."
I checked two categories for the 1997 CR-V on the NHTSA's consumer complaint site and found at least three stalling complaints. I didn't feel like going through all of them for all years, but I would imagine that there were more.
Based on this, I would have to agree with tincup in saying that a problem has to exist before they investigate/recall.
Yeah, a preventative measure would likely fall under a Technical Service Bulletin, not a recall.
AN had an article about those tranny failures - 24,000 so far, in the Ody, Accord, Prelude, TL, and CL. Honda stretched the warranty to 7/100k miles, but they did not recall them, true.
Again, if we go by the date of the article and the time the first 2000 models were made, looks like it took Honda about 3 years to own up to that problem.
-juice
I think I understand how you're interpreting Ford's letter with regard to the references cited about whether the Escape stalling constitutes an NHTSA safety issue. Notice the numbers on those references -- they are not preliminary findings about this case, they are references to unrelated cases and studies that Ford deems supportive of it's stance. For example, the main citation is to an article written by S. Prensky, entitled "Analysis of Stalling Problems", which is a Final Report prepared for National Highway Traffic Safety Administration Office of Defects Investigation in November, 1986. Obviously, if that report was researched properly prior to publication, it was based on evaluation of technology and driving patterns from well over six years ago. The other citations are to past NHTSA investigations that are separate from the Escape/Mazda stalling issue, which are being asserted as precedents -- you may have easier access to those other reports than I do, but I'm confident that Ford is assuming NHTSA's earlier findings can be generalized in favor of this particular situation. If I worked in Ford's legal division, it would be Job #1 to protect the company from liability using a similar tactic of "data massaging" and anything else that might work. However, NHTSA has not indicated that they agree with Ford's assumptions, and this is indeed a continuing defect investigation centered around technological cause/effect and safety concerns.
It is looking as if Ford has located at least four likely causes and much of the related solution to this stalling problem, while simultaneously denying to dealers and customers that a design problem even exists; so I agree that things are finally moving in a positive direction even if it's been slow. (I'm curious about comments by others on this board that the Escape/Trib was released to the public before it was properly tested -- what's up with that?)
Meanwhile, I'm most interested to see whether Ford will take a proactive consumer-oriented position in this situation rather than being bumped along by federal agencies.
For example, with the ignition recall for certain Honda vehicles, I think the recall date was sometime in the earlier part of this year.
But anyway, the notice didn't come for our Accord until August. And then the recall notice for the Civic didn't come until September. Both cars are registered at the same address too.
Those two models have brought their quality scores below Chrysler's for the first time in memory.
So maybe they did rush them to market a little too soon. More testing might have prevented some of the embarassing recalls (wheels falling off?).
However, in Ford's defense, they sell so many cars that they get far more exposure when there is any problem.
For instance, the BMW X5 has had 14 recalls, compared to 5 for the Escape (last I read). Yet you hear nothing about the X5's woes. There are fewer on the road, and people are far more forgiving of BMW. Ford gets crucified for it.
-juice
The Ultimate Recalled Machine?
Maybe it's because BMW dealers serve expresso, so the owners don't mind being pampered while their trucks are fixed repeatedly.
More likely, they've invested a lot into their trucks, and their egos may not be able to take that kind of hit - nearly triple the recalls of Ford's most recalled product of late. Ouch.
-juice
-mike
BMW is a pure status symbol and can get away with 14 recalls. The reviewers/mags will still praise this vehicle as being a "benchmark" or "refined".. go figure??
But yeah, I was shocked to see the 3.3 million engines didn't get more press. Same with Honda's transmissions.
I think both manufacturers saw a big mess coming, and quickly extended the warranties to put out the fire. I guess for them it worked.
-juice
As an interesting aside, notice that the most serious recall for potential transmission failure involved a safety issue related to uncontrolled slowing which may lead to a crash -- so much for the Escape/Trib stalling "not being an NHTSA safety issue".
NHTSA Campaign ID Number: 01V196000
Component: Powertrain: Transmission: Automatic: Switch: Solenoid: Shift Electric
Manufacturer: Bayerische Motoren Werke
Year: 2001; Make: BMW; Model: X5; Recall Date: 07/02/2001; Type of Report: Vehicle; Potential Number of Units Affected: 14300; Manufactured: 09/1999 - 02/2001
Defect Summary: Vehicle description: 4.4i sport utility vehicles. Over an extended period of time, abrasion particles could deposit on the electrical contacts within the switch, causing a disruption of the electric current through the contacts. If the disruption occurs when the vehicle is stationary with the transmission in the neutral or park positions, the transmission will switch automatically into the emergency program, which is displayed in the instrument cluster via a warning lamp and a message, "trans. Fail-safe prog." in this case, the vehicle can be driven in lower gears only with limited engine output.
Consequence Summary: IF THIS PROBLEM OCCURS, THE ABILITY TO MAINTAIN SPEED IN TRAFFIC AND/OR ACCELERATE COULD BE GREATLY DIMINISHED, POSSIBLY LEADING TO A CRASH.
"As an interesting aside, notice that the most serious recall for potential transmission failure involved a safety issue related to uncontrolled slowing which may lead to a crash -- so much for the Escape/Trib stalling "not being an NHTSA safety issue"."
But when the tranny fails, you can't restart. One thing that they kept mentioning in the NHTSA/Ford letters was that the vehicle could in fact be re-started (and it can). Even while still in motion. The problem is, most people don't know that.
tincup47: "The Gov't" is DOT and NHTSA, correct? Ford is simply *trying* to leverage past Gov't findings in it's favor with regard to the Escape/Trib stalling issue. It's a pitch, not likely a hit. Again, this is old-hat corporate legal manuevering. Another technique Ford is especially prone toward is locating a failed part, and shifting the blame entirely toward the manufacturer of that part, also skirting the obvious fact that they supposedly do quality control and component integration checks before such things enter vehicle production. So much for "Quality is Job #1".
I'm curious, tincup, what were your initial feelings about Land Rover being taken over by Ford Motor Company (esp. from BMW)?
really did not do much in the way of improving build processes or quality.
Torque Phobia - LOL, you coined a new phrase.
baggs: got me, no I did not know about the Civic's 5 (already) recalls. And it's younger than the Escape, isn't it?
-juice
As for the "new" Land Rover organization, I was thinking that Ford must have provided a huge cash influx at a time when the company was sort of struggling, which is a good thing. Land Rovers are terrific -- I was shopping Discoveries, but wasn't comfortable with the relatively small US dealership network for service and support. Otherwise, I'd be driving one today.
I didn't really read the recall so I'll take your word for it. I was just guessing but I should have read it.
If a BMW is only going to have "limited engine output", why bother starting it at all? I wasn't totally off base I guess.
juice,
The new Civic and the Escape are about the same age. I always liked this one though:
Year: 2001 Make: HONDA Model: CIVIC Recall Date: 10/31/2001
Type of Report: Vehicle
Potential Number of Units Affected: 295
Manufactured: 08/2001 - 10/2001
Defect Summary:
VEHICLE DESCRIPTION: PASSENGER VEHICLES. DURING THE ASSEMBLY PROCESS, THE AIR CLEANER BOX COVER MAY HAVE BEEN DAMAGED, AND A BROKEN PLASTIC PIECE COULD TRAVEL INTO THE INTAKE CHAMBER.
Consequence Summary:
IF THE PLASTIC PIECE LODGES IN THE THROTTLE BODY, THE THROTTLE COULD STICK IN A PARTIALLY OPEN POSITION. ALTHOUGH THE DRIVER CAN ALWAYS STOP THE CAR BY APPLYING ADDITIONAL BRAKE FORCE, OR BY TAKING OTHER ACTIONS (I.E., SHIFT INTO NEUTRAL, TURN OFF THE IGNITION KEY, ETC.), IF THE CAR CONTINUES TO MAINTAIN SPEED WHEN THE DRIVER IS EXPECTING IT TO SLOW, A CRASH COULD OCCUR.
Only a small number of units were affected, but pay close attention to this line: "ALTHOUGH THE DRIVER CAN ALWAYS STOP THE CAR BY APPLYING ADDITIONAL BRAKE FORCE, OR BY TAKING OTHER ACTIONS (I.E., SHIFT INTO NEUTRAL, TURN OFF THE IGNITION KEY, ETC.)"
Kind of sounds like "you can re-start the vehicle while still in motion following a stall". How many people are really going to think to do that in their time of panic? I'm one, but I know many others' who are not.
To be more accurate (and so I don't get flamed by Honda owners), there are 5 recalls for the 2001 Civic, and 4 for the 2002's (5 total overall). The one above, one for water in the fuel pump which could lead to, you guessed it, stalling. A clamp on the fuel hose was not tight and fuel could leak causing a fire, and two for seat belts (only one for the 2002's). Many more units were affected by the other four.
They seem to have more assembly line problems than parts problems at Honda which is probably a good thing in the long run.
-juice
As far as our differences of perception, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
The front struts replacing the wishbone suspension allows for more interior space in addition to aiding the safe crumple zone. I guess it is one of the trade offs.
I would say that is the only cost cutting item on the CRV and it did suit a purpose. The interior materials are better, the power windows are a lot more powerful, the blowers are a ton more powerful, the seat material is better, the engine is FAR better, the transmission is much better, it is now a LEV II, etc....
Didn't CR give the new CRV an average rating (typical until proven different a year later) because it is completely new and re designed??? I know year to year ratings can be based on the previous year but a re designed vehicle is completely different.
However, I won't be recommending the Escape/Tribute to anyone until Ford resolves the stalling issue -- unexpectant or intermittent stalling *is* a safety issue, especially the first time it happens to someone. Otherwise, it's a design that suits the needs of many people.
I have had my 01 Escape now for over a year, with not one problem. Over this year I have bumped into at least 15 people with either a Trib or an Escape. I made it a point to actually ask people how they liked their vehicles if they were within speaking distance. None of the 15 had any major problems. Some gripes about squeakes/rattles but no major failures..
Glad to hear you're having a happy experience with your Escape.
Dave: I was talking about the Civic, but yeah, the CR-V inherited that change. On the CR-V, I think it's fine, actually. There is more suspension travel, and a strut is fine for a sport/cute. The bones were never tuned for sporty driving anyway.
For sporty tuned Civics, it's a step down from the wishbones.
And yeah, the engine was the biggest improvement. The 2.4l is light years ahead of the 2.0l IMHO.
-juice
-mike
Sorry, didn't read the fine line.
It would have to have that level of ruggedness and flexibility which comes with solid axles. It would need the reliability of the Honda or Subaru, it would need the 4-low transfer case. It would NOT need a huge motor, but big enough to tow a 2000-3000 pound boat, yet still be miserly on gas.
Is there something wrong with that? I like the Liberty, but it ain't no Honda. (take that with a grain of salt, both Liberty and Honda people).
Still waiting....
100K warranty.
-mike
details, please.
-mike
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Of course, there's a marked difference between random automotive "anomolies" and an established pattern of "potential defect". It means a lot if the NHTSA is bothering to invest time and resources into something that merits a defect investigation, and it's just plain smart to factor that in when comparison shopping. Meanwhile, its also common sense that those who are financially vested in things like unit sales, brand success, and higher resale values would emphasize the ambiguous "potential" and minimize the statistical evidence of "defect".
In my view, a seller always gains by saying "Yes, it's worth the risk"; but a buyer would do best to say, "No thanks, I'll pass on that one for now", especially given the range of alternatives. Perhaps that's the key distinction between our perspectives -- I favor the side of smart consumerism, and you favor the side of promoting corporate success (those positions are not mutually exclusive). That's not a criticism, just a simple observation. If our roles were reversed, perhaps our perspectives would be, as well. (I like to believe mine wouldn't.)
You should visit the Honda salesman I talked to a couple of months ago. He went on to tell me about how the Pilot is based on a truck. I wonder what kind of perfect vehicle he could conjure up for you?
I wonder how many people are driving their Pilot around Pittsburgh thinking they are in a rugged truck? Not that they need it.
But yeah, solid axles aren't exactly what most people in this topic are looking for. I don't like 'em - a bump on one wheel affects the other, too. Gimme fully independent any day, for on-pavement use (i.e. virtually all the time).
-juice
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2002-10-10-sorento_x.htm
-juice
When did it come out? I'd rather wait if it is new, so as to avoid problems like in the Escape and Trialblazer.
And I'm not sure how long it's been out in Korea.
-mike
I don't particularly care about the gas mileage when car shopping, but the Sorento is listed at 15/20 in the USAToday article if anyone else cares. Seems to be about right for a 3.5L engine even if it only produces about 195 HP.
Because, what I'd really really like more than anything is something in between the CRV and Pilot, with HONDA RELIABILITY, or like a slightly upsized Forester, or even the Santa Fe or Escape, BUT...
It would have to have that level of ruggedness and flexibility which comes with solid axles. It would need the reliability of the Honda or Subaru, it would need the 4-low transfer case. It would NOT need a huge motor, but big enough to tow a 2000-3000 pound boat, yet still be miserly on gas.
I could be missing something here, but doesn't that pretty much describe the XTerra pretty much exactly? I'd be willing to bet a Nissan that's been around for 2-3 years will be more reliable than a brand new Kia, too.
-Jason
You might not care, but others do.
The V6 isn't overly powerful, but it feels very torquey, very satisfying. You will not feel wanting, and that's in the big van.
That GM has a great engine but it needs a better wrapper, IMO.
-juice