Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
Options
Tires
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Ryan
I have in fact stood up and said something to the effect of you obviously are not in need of my assistance, I will be moving on as I have other trouble calls waiting. And once I just kept walking even though the guy was trying to get me to come back. (I sent someone else the next day.)
Pat
Community Leader/Maintenance & Repair Conference
How often? If you never hit a severe bump, pot hole, train tracks, or anything else, probably never. But that's not the real world. You may be able to feel if the alignment shifts but then you can get paranoid about it too. Do keep visually inspecting your tires every few weeks. Look for the start of abnormal wear. That's all I can advise.
Anyone have any input on this?
You don't usually need a four wheel alignment unless your car has four-wheel independent suspension.
anyone notice on commercials lately that businesses are starting to emphasize service again? what a nice change that will be.
pat - yea. i know. or someone writes a macro in a spreadsheet or something and then expects me to debug it for them, and it's the worst spaghetti code you've ever seen in your life... ugh...
-Chris
Ryan
However, the Wal-Mart legal team examined the issue last year and determined that as long as the customer is aware of the downgraded speed capability.
A 130 mph top speed isn't the only thing that makes an H-rated tire, but that's where the company currently stands.
The H-rated tires your Honda originally came with (assuming it was manufactured in the past decade) incorporate an additional polyamide belt wrapped circumfrentially around the steel belts to resist centrifugal forces at high speeds. This allows the tires to achieve the 130mph H-rating, but also makes the tire considerably more stable at speeds as low as 70mph. The X-One (or X-Radial Plus, as Sam's markets it) does not have this feature.
The X-Radial Plus will not handle quite as well as the MXV4 Plus, but it will last more than twice as long. As long as you are aware that your vehicle will no longer be capable of exceeding 118mph (due to the T-rating of the X Radial Plus) and you might feel slight vibrations at high speeds, there is not reason Sam's shouldn't install this tire.
Ask them why they can't do it. Demand specific reasons why your car would be less safe than a car which originally came with a T-rated tire. "Company Policy," though it no longer is, is not a suitable explanation.
Want to know the secret of getting your way at Sam's? Ask for a manager, then ask for the General Manager. Tell him you "are very unsatisfied with the member service you are receiving," in those words. If that doesn't work, take the GM's full name, then inform him that you will be contacting home office in Bentonville, Arkansas to inform them how the "policy" of this club is not concurrent with that of the corporation and renders them incapable of providing your with the service you pay $35 a year to receive.
If it actually goes that far, I can probably dig up the original profs (our intra-corporate email) which says it's okay to do whatever the member wants, and send it to you to wave in the knucklehead's face.
--Chris
However, the Wal-Mart legal team examined the
issue last year and determined that as long as the
member (customer) is aware of the downgraded speed
capability, Sam's can install whatever the member wants.
The vendor I use for mount & balance has a GSP9700 (the baddest balancer available) and uses ordinary ratchet-type torque wrenches. They have their own ideas about what torque to use but if you spec something they'll do it.
I check my torque at home with a similar torque wrench after 10-20 miles and find that they do a fine job without any fancy tools.
So what's the advantage of this computerized system again?
-Colin
Personally, I would STRONGLY avoid using any tire that is less speed-rated than the original tires put on the car. Your point about lesser speed-rated tires is well-taken, especially if you have a car that can go well over 100 mph (e.g., V-6 Honda Accords and all Acura models).
As for my Honda Civic HX CVT coupe, the car came with Firestone FR680 P185/65R14 82S tires (e.g., they have the S max speed rating). The reason why Honda can do this is because the HX CVT coupe can't go faster than 105 mph due to the rev limiter on the engine itself. The tire I plan to switch to--most likely the Bridgestone RE92--are P185/65HR14 with H speed rating, so there should be no problems.
From now on I will mount my own tires using my Snap on (overpriced) torque wrench to torque them down. I would really doubt that anyone using a air impact wrench without any torque setting device could get close to the correct torque settings. The air pressure differentials in their air system alone would make a significant difference. The tire stores are similiar in my opinion to quick oil change places-still love the story about a guy finding a wine cork jammed into his oil drain plug even if it was made up-probably was-those people would be drinking screw top at best.
That's exactly what I've been saying. It's the people, not the equipment which f&@# up our vehicles at quickie tire shops and lube shops. Finding a retial tire shop staffed by intelligent professionals is like finding a diner with no roaches. Sure they're out there, but unless you bust into the kitchen, you have no idea. Most would rather just enjoy their cheap sausage and try to forget about the roach eggs they might be ingesting. The same goes for tires and oil.
The only way you can protect yourself is to leave the car home on jack stands, while you take only the wheels into the shop. Face it, it's tough to screw up a wheel. Even the most ill-trained sloth can usually mount and balance a tire without causing too much damage.
Oh, and the 10 psi range maintained by most 160 psi compressors does not affect the accuracy of an impact tool. A truly experienced technician feels the intensity of the hammer blows to judge the torque. It sounds ridiculous, but every guy in my shop can do it--ratcheting TQ wrench tested.
Colin,
The advantage is, it's idiot-proof. It's a prodigious step toward eliminating the margin for human error.
Ray,
Right. I wouldn't downgrade my speed rating, in fact, I usually upgrade it in search of better handling. But there is nothing unsafe in downgrading a non-V6 Accord's tires from H to T, as long as the customer is aware of it. Most family sedan owners would benefit much more from the extended treadwear than from having the capability to exceed 118mph.
;->
Pat
Community Leader/Maintenance & Repair Conference
http://www.goodyear.com/us/tires/technology/runflat.html
(There are at least a couple of broken links on the page.)
What do folks think about these? Is Goodyear the only company who makes them?
Tireguy, you've made your opinion about Goodyear tires quite clear - anything to add about "Run-Flats"?
Pat
Community Leader/Maintenance & Repair Conference
WHo was at fault-me-the guy at Sam's was just trying to survive. I now watch the guys balancing tires before I buy.
But all this is worthless if the technician doesn't know s--t from shinola. Like I've said earlier, talk to the joe working on your car. You can tell an idiot form a learned professional less time than it takes to pick out your tires.
Also, if the shop's unusually busy, go home. Sam's club likes to operate understaffed. How can you expect to get good service if there're two guys in the garage working on five cars? If you shop for tires in November or a day before the big snow storm, you're asking for trouble.
I feel a bit out of place here as I haven't gone through your entire postings exchange. But: I also have the Accord Coupe EX V6 ('98). My car came with the V Rated Michelin MXV4 Energy Plus tires. I too feel they leave something to be desired. BUT I'D NEVER come down from the V rating. Not only (go ahead and argue) does that rating represent the top speed, it also represents how long you can run at a top speed. As I commonly drive at 80-85mph on some interstates (do you?), I think having a good V rated (or better) tire IS important in our type of car. Forget H or lower.
So, would you (tireguy) think that silvercoupe should re-consider? I'd go the Dunlop 8000 or 9000 series or the Perelli SP7000 series tires. From the reviews I've seen (agreed: no first hand knowledge), these tires have high speed ratings, are quiet, and have very good handling test results.
-Chris
You are not incorrect in stating that a high performance tire will often provide improved drivability even well below its maximum speed (usually due to the circumfrential nylon/polyamide belt cap found on premium touring tires), but a T-rated tire is no slackin' fitment. You are wrong to think that driving at sustained speeds above 70 mph would constitute the need for a tire rated for over 149 mph. The sacrifices in treadwear and comfort counter the true needs of all but the hardest-core car enthusiasts. Even an S-rated tire can safely sustain speeds over 100mph, as long as the tire pressure is adjusted to allow such. This is an important point to note: whether your tires are H, V, Z, whatever, you have to raise the pressure well above the recommended everyday driving pressure for your vehicle (in the manual, on the door placard), for sustained speeds over 90mph. This is why most high performance tires have max pressures as high as 44psi.
DIV2, you're so right, but we're not talking about a car which requires a V or Z rated tire. We're talking about a four-cylinder Honda.
And furthermore, the main disadvantage of the heat buildup you describe is excessive treadwear. According to this argument, downgrading your speed rating would result in a hot tire which melts away prematurely. Which do you think will last longer on Silvercoupe's Accord, the 40K mile "proper" MXV4 or the well over 80K mile (6 years unlimited) X-One? Both are composed of the same silica compound; both start with nearly the same tread depth.
Now, what was your point again?
Why is the best T-rated luxury touring tire Michelin makes a cheap, improper fitment for a 4-banger Accord? I'd really love to hear a solid explanation. The engineers at Michelin couldn't give me one, I'd be really surprised (and somewhat delighted) if anyone other than the people who made them could.
Maybe you are looking for particular handling characteristics more commonly found in the high performance tires. But like tireguy points out, speed rating is not a true indicator of quality or handling characteristics.
Yes, I hate Goodyear tires with a passion. No one who has seen as many of their tires wobble on the balancer or heard the customers' complaints about noise and ill-traction can deny that they sell a second-rate tire at a premium price. Though some may say they like their Goodyears, I cannot think of a single Goodyear model which is not pummeled by its competition of the same price level. I'm not saying they're the worst tires you can buy, I'm just saying they do not deserve the rank in which their price or media-induced reputation situates them.
Hey, but the 3' blimp the rep gave us to hang from the ceiling is pretty cool.
But Goodyear is not the only maker of Run-Flat tires (though that's their trade mark). Michelin sells a Zero Pressure version of its MXV4. And then there's that gooey self-sealing Uniroyal. I don't know why the heck you'd want a tire which might have a dozen nails in it but will show no signs of injury until one rubs through the sidewall and sends you spinning off a cliff.
Though I don't really deal with the Zero Pressure tires, I've examined one at another local shop. There's no magic in the functionality of these tires. They use a sidewall so thick it can support the vehicle even with a golf-ball sized hole in it. I can't imagine this inch-thick sidewall would be very conducive to a pleasant ride. Also, these tires require the installation of an electronic pressure sensor in each wheel, making them all the more complex.
The new Vettes are fitted with the Run-Flat Goodyears. A distraught owner came into our shop last week to see if he could get a replacement. The 18" rear tires sell for over $300 each. The Vette owner was furious because the roofing nail in the middle of his tread had rendered the new tire useless, according to the dealer. I haven't taken the time to verify this with my Goodyear Rep, but evidently the tires cannot be repaired by conventional means; once the casing is punctured, the Run-Flats are toast.
Unless physically disabled and completely unable to change a flat tire yourself, I would recommend avoiding these tires. Personally, as much as I despise temporary spares, I would rather drive on a donut than a run-flat tire with a gaping hole in it.
Run-Flat = Bad idea. A regular spare has done it just fine for over a hundred years. This is just one of those products which encourages the consumer to allow him/herself to become more lazy. Even my college homecoming queen fiance has successfully changed a flat tire (under my supervision, in my garage). People are just too afraid to get dirty.
A word of caution in regards to your favorite tire shop: make sure they have tire changing machines that won't damage alloy wheels. Many older shops don't have those and they can cause expensive damage to your alloy wheels. Fortunately, most of the better stores in my area have the newer tire changing machines, mostly because most new cars come with alloy wheels as standard equipment (the eight-spoke OEM alloy wheels on my Civic HX CVT coupe costs $175 per wheel! $_$).
In my case, I do drive fast when conditions permit. Most of the time, however, I'm stuck in traffic along with everyone else. I also love to drive for performance on small country roads in the mountains (OK, the Bershires) which contain lots of twistees, etc. I know how to take a turn quickly, but my Michelin MXV4's do not. They experience what I think is called: "radial runout". My car is not an exotic, just an Accord EX V6 (with a few goodies). Anyway, these tires on my car for my type of driving (Um, qualified enough?) seem to be the weak link in the performance chain. And that's why I'm considering those Dunlop SP9000's for my next tires. Please do comment, I'd like to learn more.
Michelin bills the MXV4 as a high end "touring" tire. I don't know what they mean by "touring." Perhaps a Michelin touring tire is one which allows you to drive in a straight line at ridiculous speeds, but still feels as comfortable as it does at the speed limit, certainly the MXV4's forte. I know exactly what you mean about the cornering deficiencies. Though this tire is suitable for drivers who take the Accord to its top speed, it is not suitable for those who push the envelope of lateral g's.
The same tires are OE on my 99 new Jetta. I am a safe driver, never had an accident (on a four-wheeled vehicle, anyway), never got a speeding ticket, but I prefer to drive well above the speed limit, and often take exit ramps at more than twice the marked speed. The MXV4s roll and squeal when taken to their limit, but most people don't put their tires through that kind of punishment.
It's not radial runout which causes the ill-cornering, it's a deflection of the tread blocks which allows the entire casing to roll. "Radial runout" is refers to a condition found in cheap or damaged tires in which the radius actually fluctuates around the tire, causing an up and down wobble. This is easily noticeable while a tire is being balanced, and take it from someone who has balanced hundreds of MXV4s and a greater number of the competitions' tires--the MXV4 (or any Michelin) is manufactured with a very tight tolerance for radial runout. Many of them look as though they were machined out of a block of steel as they spin precisely on the balancer.
Though this tire is wonderful for people who kick it up on the interstate, then actually slow down for exit ramps or curves; for us, there is the Pilot XGT V4.
This tire is a direct descendant of the tires developed for the rally racing circuit. It will greatly outperform the Dunlop SP9000. Check it out on Michelin's website. It's one of the finest all-season high-performance tires available, and priced about the same as the MXV4.
I remember taking a blast over the mountains in a Saturn SL2 with a 5 speed and MXV4 energy's. Maybe the balance of the 4 cyl Saturn is different from a V6 Accord but I was winding through the gears, late braking into the apexes and the MXV4s felt great. Agreed a higher performance tire would have given me an edge in handling but I don't think I could really use the difference in handling considering how fast I was going already (really scary).
But considering how the MXV4s perform on your car especially on the twisty roads, I think you are right to look into a higher performance tire. Again don't use the speed rating of the tire as the major criteria for considering a tire. Let us know what you find.
Thanks
Off the subject: I just saw "The Gladiator." What an awesome flick.
heng: My family lives in Otis. I commonly drive up on CT Route 8 but the best part is Route 8 in MA coming up from Winstead to Otis. And then there is Route 23 from Otis to GB. Plus all those little roads.
Now, one other question, how good are the Michelin RainForce MX4 tires versus the Energy MXV4 Plus.
What is your take on the high-speed balancing?
Thanks in advance.
Replaced MXV4's orig equipment tires on 97 I4 accord with the X-One's. I put on over 40K per year and let me tell you-what a difference. The MXV4 was in my view a lousy tire-particularly awful wet/snow traction. Did a 4 wheel drift on entrance ramp to O'Hare and slid for over 200 feet on snow with the MXV4's. The X-One's are vastly better in wet traction-drove 250 miles 2 days ago through heavy a downpour from IA to N. IL-really dumped rain-was running at 75 mph, not a hint of hydroplaning. Superb traction on twisty US 20 through N. IL.
The X-One's are quieter and have much better dry traction and cornering. The MXV4's would squall like a stuck pig on corners-have run the same corner at speed with the X-One's and not a peep.
If you have MXV4's and want to dramatically improve your vehicles handling-get X-One's. There are probably better tires out there but the X-One is a nice compromise between performance and a tire that is quiet enough not to drive you up the wall. Check out www.tirerack.com they have a lot of ratings on various tires from actual users and seem to always hit the mark. Oh I got 73K on my MXV4's before having to replace them due to road damage-they had another 10K on them. How some people can grind off a set of tires in less than 40K amazes me. Course I got 97K on my 97 accord and still have the original front brake pads and they have at least another 40K of wear on them.
Similarly if you go with a 75 series then the tread width would about 245.
The X-ones or the X-plus's (tireguy points out they are the same) are a high quality product with a great mix of characteristics that would work well with most vehicles. Even the occasional high speed run through the twistes.
Some other posts like over in sedans/tires for acura-tl are really wacked out. That specific post had the X-ones as crap, noisy, rough riding, handles like s**t, etc. When I asked, like what vehicle do you have them on, it was 'I drove a friends car for a short time'. Then went on to explain how the high wear rating justified his view of them. He wouldn't know a greasy tire if it hit him. Anyone remember the Uniroyal Tiger Paws and even the early Michelin Xs? You would bet someone was rubbing oil on your tires. Those were low grip tires. It was obvious not to pursue any meaningful discussion with him.
Another post (here?) wouldn't consider X-one's since they are only T rate. Insisted that he needed V rated tires on a Honda Accord and that even H rated tires shouldn't be considered. Maybe he's paranoid about high speed tire failure or thinks he'll get the handling characteristics he is looking for by using the speed rating as a guide.
Bottom line: Michelin X-one's and X-plus's are a quality product with one of the best mixes of ride, noise, grip, handling and wear. (and if you want, you can run them up to the 118 mph speed rating continuously)
Are you looking for tires designed more for off-road performance (or at least the off-road look), or are you looking more for street performance? I believe your vehicle has 16x7 rims, though it might have 16x6.5. If you have 7" rims, the LT265/75R16 is the widest tire you can properly fit. A 285/75 would fit the rim, but it is not recommended, as the narrow clearance of the rim flanges pushes the beads of the wide tire together, causing the center of the tread to balloon out. This will cause the center of the tread to wear prematurely; the wear can be evened by reducing the pressure, but you will probably encounter a myriad of problems. The 265/75 is really the best size for this vehicle for all-around drivability, improved looks, and off-highway capability. The 245/75R16 is considerably smaller than the stock fitment. I would not recommend going to this size unless you are planning to tow extremely heavy loads, since these tires are readily available in the 10-ply rating (load range E). If you go with the 265/75R16, go with a 6-ply rating (load range C).
If you are looking for a street performance tire, your options are limited. There are very few 16" low-profile tires which will adequately support your vehicle. I would suggest purchasing aftermarket 17" wheels and looking into the Michelin Pilot LTX. You could use the aftermarket wheels in the summer and the stockers in the winter.
You can eliminate all the guesswork by first checking your rim width as indicated on the tire placard on the driver's door. Step two: pick out a tire you like (online--don't throw yourself at the mercy of some clueless tire salesman), then, get ahold of the tire data sheet for this particular tire. Many of these are available on web sites. If you are looking at Michelin or BF Goodrich tires, the dealer will have these in back of his MAST (Michelin America Small Tires) Fitment guide--a phonebook sized reference found in every shop which sells Michelin tires. The salesperson should be willing to make a photocopy of the requested pages. On this data sheet will be the exact dimensions, allowable rim widths, a cross-section of the tire which shows the actual construction, and load/pressure information. With this in hand, you can determine which tires will fit your rims, then you can measure the actual clearance on the vehicle to judge exactly what will work.
When going to a larger tire, you won't need to recalibrate your speedometer. You just have to consider that the larger tires will spin slower than the OE tires at the same road speed. Going from a 265/70 to a 265/75 constitutes a loaded radius difference of approximately 7%. So at 55mph your speedometer will actually read around 52mph. Big deal. Your odometer will also climb x% slower. If the truck is leased, this could mean a few bucks back in the end.
If you are considering going with a lower-profile street tire, you need to consider the load capacity. This is indicated by the load index, directly following the 16 and preceding the speed rating in the tire designation. You must never downgrade the load carrying capacity of your tires. The load index (a number around 110 for your tires) makes it easy to compare the O.E. capacity with that of any other tire size.
Once you have gathered all the information I have mentioned, you can walk into any tire shop, tell them what you need, and protect yourself from being misled. I've been in the tire business for years, and the truth is most guys in tire shops have no clue. They will give you an opinion based on anything but research or experience. Don't rely on them to educate you.
If you aren't in the mood to go through everything I have just mentioned, and you just want a solid recommendation, then here is what I would do:
Drive that truck straight from the dealership to Sam's Club, purchase a set of LT265/75R16 Michelin LTX A/T tires. They sell for around $130 each and are the absolute best you can get. At Sam's you get the mounting and balancing, lifetime rotation, new stems, and full road-hazard insurance for a measly $7.50 per tire.
Goodyear Wranglers usually cost considerably more, but with these tires you are paying a premium price FOR A NAME, on a second-rate tire.
Ask the technician to use lots of lube while dismounting your tires (to minimize risk of tearing the bead) since you will be keeping them. Slip him a fin so he does a good job. Then sell your tires in the classifieds. You should easily get $250 for them, even after driving on them.
The 265 LTXs are the best you can get, for traction, durability, and quality. The LTX A/T is the more aggressive of the line, and stocked at Sam's; LTX M/S is identical in construction, with more of a highway tread. It is not stocked by Sam's, but can be ordered by request (with full payment). Also, if you go to Sam's, the sales clerk should be more than willing to photocopy the data sheet for this tire out of the back of the MAST guide for you to peruse at your leisure.
Did I cover everything? Nothing like a long answer to a short question.
These are two tires with dramatic structural differences, made by the SAME company for DIFFERENT purposes.
The MXV4 has incorporated technology which makes it capable of achieving things the X-One cannot. Yes, it's true that many import sedans might benefit more from the features of the X-One, but just because the MXV4 wasn't designed for you, that doesn't detract from its legendary reputation among people who actually know what they're talking about.
And I'm sure your hydroplaning escapades had nothing to do with the fact that you were pushing a 40K mile tire to 75K.
I have Energy MXV4 Plus tires and they are great. I have X-Radial Plus tires, and they, too, are great. Just as my four-wheel disc brake, 5-speed Jetta is different than my V8-powered, automatic Monte Carlo, these tires are made for a very different function. Just because my Monte can't take an exit ramp at 90mph, that doesn't mean she's not great for hauling six of my friends out to the bar on a Friday night.
I paid $180 for my Gore-Tex Danner boots and $80 for my Adidas running shoes. In the lightweight Adidas, I can run three miles in 18 minutes; but with the Danners, it takes me 24 minutes. Guess I really wasted my money on those heavy buggers. Functionality--oh, what's that?
Ryan
In my usual fashion, I just wrote a vast, obscenely informative response in which I divulged every ounce of my knowledge on the subject of BF Goodrich tires. Unfortunately, I just erased it. At this wee hour of the morning, I must respond with but a name:
BF Goodrich All-Terrain T/A KO
(the "KO" is important)
Maybe tomorrow I'll feel up to re-composing my original response.
Chris
Ryan