I have 2001 Mazda Protege and it is notchy when cold. That is one of the reasons why I switched. It didn't seem to make a difference though and I suspect that the redline stuff won't either. I don't think that it being notchy when cold is a "problem" either; its normal. Besides that, there is no recommended change interval for the transmission fluid in the owner's manual so I am going to keep that Synpower in there for quite a while.
Could this addage be said of synthetics as well some are top tier and others are not so too are oil filters some edge out others in various features. I think that mobil 1 is a great oil, so is redline, my strong feelings are that Amsoil edges them out quite a bit. And is worth the little extra $ I'm putting out for it my experience has been nothing else but outstanding, my other friends us Mobil 1 some seem to consume more oil than I do yet cars are not alike. Yet when a few people converted to Amsoil there consumption slowed considerably and was no where near as much as Mobil 1 hence "Not all synthetics are created equal"
and saw no difference in consumption on three cars. I now use Mobil 1 and my 2001 Sentra uses well under 1 oz. per thousand miles. There is no guarantee that two identical cars use the same amount of oil.
I read an independant study about a year ago that showed Mobil 1 and Amzoil were clearly superior to the other brands of Synthetic. However, the differences between Mobile 1 and Amzoil were so minute, there's really no advantage or disadvantage to using one over the other.
To the owner of the Mercedes that specified the ultra-spread 0W40 that I wouldn't want to use even if I COULD find it, consult the dealership AND the Mercedes help/cust. svc. lines located in this country and look for a consensus. I bet they say to use Mobil 1 5W30.
Newcar31, if they recommend GL-5, I bet most brands of that stuff are safe. Don't think Redline will make an improvement? Don't be so sure. That's the best aspect of Redline MTL ... its cold weather performance. And despite the fact that you JUST changed your fluid, manual tranny fluid changes are cheap to do as you only need about 2 quarts ... depending on manufacturer. Trying Redline MTL or MT-90 is only about a $16 experiment. That's pretty cheap as far as automotive mods go. >;^)
As for comparisons between synthetics, the best comparison I've seen is on Redline's site and they showed that their oil was better than other synthetics ... but mostly when pushed to near-racing conditions which few cars see. They also only HINT at which other brands they are comparing their oil too.
Basically, I'm not satisfied with what I've seen so far.
So, If anyone has some other links to other synth oil studies, please post them.
Of course Redline is going to show their product as being superior, it wouldn't be much of a sales pitch to show the others being superior. Independant results are non-biased, and are therefore a much more reliable source.
Even as a Mobil 1 user, I think it would be difficult (can you say expensive) to prove a couple of oils are better. That would mean very extensive testing of say 6 to 8 differerent oils. Engines need to be run in double/tripple Sequence Tests and then torn down and evaluated. Unfortunately I highly doubt this report did that.
I use Amosil for about everything from engine oils, filters to ATF and gear oil. However, on my 6 spd toy the Amosil gear oil showed no improvement in shifting when cold over the OEM so I decided to try the MT-90. World of difference, much much easier. Next time I am going to mix 50-50 MT-90 with the MTL as many owners of my car recommend. So, try Redline Gear Oil, they do seem to make a better product, especially for performance cars. I am sticking with the AMosil oils though, been good to me over the past 10 years. Most I go is 12,000 miles or so between changes, went to 15,000 once, filter at 6 months in these cases.
Oil does not break down or get contaminated with acids etc. (based upon oil analysis ) but it does get silicon build up in my case.
Both the MT-90 and MTL are RedLine gear oils. The MTL is a slightly lighter gear oil, I don't recall believe one is 80W90 the other 75W90 and they are GL-4. The oils are a reddish tint as well!
Amsoil's are mostly GL-5 but they do make one 80W90 GL-4.
Bottgers, take a look at my post above. I said: "I'm not satisfied with what I've seen so far." I KNOW that Redline will show their stuff as superior ... but their technical data is much more impressive than what I've seen from any other brand. I'm always interested in independent testing ... but it's so darn RARE!
Also, Redline has an unparalleled reputation amongst road-racers. Add this all up and I thought their stuff was worth a try ... and I was right.
Yes, MTL is a bit lighter than MT-90 (both are made by Redline). If you go to their site:
www.redlineoil.com
You'll see the specs for both (and others) so you'll know which is appropriate for any given application. Of course, they also have the thicker gear oils for rear-ends, etc ...
One of my issues with RedLine is their pricing. Amsoil at least has consistent pricing from dealers, one for retail, one if you are a dealer etc. Consistent pricing. RedLine, check out the web, and every dealer sets their own price for the product so you have to shop around the country looking for the price. RedLine dealers, at least in my state, have piecemeal inventories, stock some products but not others etc.
One of my primary reasons for using Amsoil, besides good results over past 10 years, is that I can drive up to my jobber who keeps inventory and pick it off of the shelf and drive home. Not true for most people that have to have it shipped and most dealers also do not keep inventory.
Again, if you look at the marketing angle RedLine advertising is built upon racing and the assumption is that if the products are great for racing (where they change lubricants after every race) they are great for the average driver. We all know that this ain't necessarily so! Amsoil is more of the long haul average driver. Both great oils as is Mobil 1, just that RedLine is almost $3/quart more for me then Amsoil which I can get at $4.35/quart, most Redline quotes are $7.75/quart. Also, some RedLine dealers also sell Hasting filters as does Amsoil and of course Baldwin/Hastings makes the filters for Amsoil as well.
Some day CR will test the most popular synthetic oils for lubricatiuon, durability etc. and shed some light but truly independent tests I have never seen on synthetic oils.
They did that 60K taxicab test and compared wear among different oils. I believe that there conclusion was that there was not a whole lot of difference between oils. I reecall that when I read the test it was a little low on objectives and their final conclusion was that oil could be changed at I believe 6K with economical and good wear results. There was really no data in their test that supported this theory. They came up with that theory out of the blue.
I have read the Redline propaganda also and I must say that it sounded good. But as armtdm pointed out, it it good for the long term? How does it do on seals?? Im sure that if you desired the least wear possible and had no fear of seal deterioration or had unlimited funds to change frequently you would be happy. I would like to see them published in SAE also. In this way their data would be independently evaluated. This isn't sour grapes on my part-just some babbling.
with a pinch of salt. how many of our cars actually come close to the conditions of what taxicabs go through? cabs dont see as many cold starts as we do, they keep running most of the day, they dont go thru "stop and go" conditions the way we do.
as far as servicing is concerned, cabs come under the classification of "normal service" whereas most of us fall under the "severe service" category.
Taxi usage pattern definitely differs very substantially from the typical private car. Few cold starts, running all the day, put a lot of mileage - something like 10,000 miles per month. You are right in this respect.
However, taxis in general, and the NY City yellow cabs in particular, endure a lot of "stop and go". Practically they are driven in this mode all the time when not idle. Traffic light to traffic light, jam to jam, in rather dense traffic.
Severe service by any definition.
By the way, I live in 75-80 miles from NY City. Most of my colleagues never drive here, prefering train, even bus, to their own cars when they need to be in the city. Americans born in America, not immigrans.
You may well be right-this may fall under the "severe" classification. I believe though that approximately 50 tp 80 percent of a vehicle's engine wear is due to cold starts. Then again they also let the things idle a lot and no miles are put on. Hence there is a lot of engine running per mile. May be a toss up.
You may be 100% correct that CR "came up with that theory out of the blue." However, it could be that CR collected lots of data and elected to omit it from the article. CR is big on general recommendations, probably because that's what their readers want. Y'know, tell me what to do, don't give me a bunch of information and make me decide for myself. Most of their readers do NOT want lots of technical data that may be hard to digest.
I'm not saying that the taxicab test was well done or technical enough in its approach; just saying that we don't really know for sure.
I switched my 99 Accord V6 coupe to QS Syn a few months ago. I am on the second change and I am starting to see a little better mileage. I think I have gained about 1 to 1.5 mpg.
There is also less valve noise on start up after sitting a couple days.
I plan on drains every 6 to 7k and use honda filters.
Yes, Redline IS more expensive but I feel more comfortable with it in my crankcase as my Honda Civic Coupe suffers from "piston slap" which makes a sound much like a rod knocking in the motor on cold mornings. This lasts for a few minutes (until the engine warms up) because the skirt on the piston is worn and "slaps" back and forth until the weat causes it to expand Despite the fact that this car has well over 100 horsepower and gives me 40-45mpg in mixed driving, it was not one of the better powerplants to come out of the otherwise excellent Honda Corporation. As it is, the motor has 109,000 miles on it and runs flawlessly when warmed up and I'd like to keep it a couple more years at least.
I did use the "snake oil" additive "Prolong" once in this car but the rest of the time I used a synthetic motor oil like Castrol Syntec (before and after reformulation) Mobil 1 and Valvoline Synpower. For the piston slap, I like to blame the Prolong which contains a corroding ingredient (and I'll OBVIOUSLY never use it again) along with the fact that I drive this car HARD - sustained high-speed cruises at 4,000-4,500 rpms for hours at a time. For example, around Labor Day, I drove from Saratoga, New York all the way up to Alexandria Bay and the "Thousand Islands" region and back in one day ... a total of 450 miles. Yes, as you can imagine, I MIGHT HAVE broken the speed limit on occasion during that trip. >;^)
So, I am trying to make the most of the lil' beast now ... and I trust Redline to do that more than anything else.
As for the way Redline is priced, with each dealer being a little different, that's fine with me. That's the way most products are sold in the world. Some will have low prices with others a little higher but with free or cheaper shipping. Depending on how you buy one or the other will work out better for you. Oh, and if you have a specialty, high-performance automotive store near you, that guy might be a Redline dealer. For example there's a Honda Dealer in Manchester Connecticut that sells about a third of Redline's product range. So, it's not just mail-order, although when asked for referrals by on-line friends and fellow enthusiasts, they are the easiest to provide.
As for 'racing' vs. 'street' oils, Redline explains this in detail on their site. Finding all the data on their site can be tricky as similar topics are discussed in a few different places. Basically, the difference comes down to the additive package. Racing oils are mostly lubricant with just a couple additives while the street oils need more detergents, anti-corrosion compounds and acid neutralizers for use over a much longer period of time.
Everyone should prefer, not dislike, differences in pricing from one reseller to another. If every store sold an identical item for exactly the same price as every other store, we would not be living in a free market economy.
It makes no sense to me that people would prefer to know that all Amsoil dealers charge the same price. Wouldn't it be better if some dealers sold it for less than others, so you had the opportunity to seek out the best price? That's kinda what this country is all about.
Also, the RedLine dealers actually seem to sell it for less then the home office which is probably intentional on their part to build a dealer network.
That piston slap may not be too bg a thing. The GM 3.1 engines are prone to it. My '94 has a huge piston slap since new. It still uses almost no oil and runs extremely well (70K). I'll continue to follow your experience with the Red Line. My confidence level on it is not yet quite up to Mobil. Have you seen unbased evidence that it can go the distance??
A lot of companies don't really want to sell directly from the factory to the end user. They'd rather sell wholesale to a network of dealers and let the dealers promote the products locally, etc ... it's less work for them that way.
Redline and some others (Stash Tea & Natures Way herbal products come immediately to mind) merely sell to the end user only as a last resort and they specifically price their products so that any dealer can undercut them, at least a little. This approach balances support of their dealer network (and no dealer will take on a product line if they know the home office will sell directly cheaper than they can) while making sure they are not 100% reliant on their dealers. I think the first time I used MTL I ordered it directly from Redline in California (I live in upstate NY) and it cost me $10 per quart including S&H!
But now, in an age of e-commerce and catalog sales where you aren't dependent on one local dealer, I could see them coming out with a policy any day that says they won't sell directly to end users but instead will send you a listing of their dealers. One thing about the direct sales they DO make, however, is that the margins on those sales are enormous. Products are usually marked up 100% every time they pass from one party to another in a typical automotive product distribution chain so by going from factory to end user, the margin is often 200-400% if sold at the MSRP... which is usually the case.
Yurakm, I figured those rules applied to more than just the auto-parts/supply industry ... but that's what I'm most familiar with.
ADC100, thanks for the encouraging advice. My 'Lil Honda runs like a top once warmed up ... and starts right up even in sub-zero temps. My Dad's a big Ford man and he had to get rid of his 1994 Mercury with Fords 4.6L engine. The thing ran fine for about 80,000 miles but then it just limped along and we replaced everything trying to get it running normal and all we were able to do was get it to survive. Dad dumped the thing with "only" 130,000 miles on it. I gotta keep my Honda longer than that. >;^) That means at least another year and a half.
As for Redline motor oil, I'm basing my (limited) enthusiasm for the stuff based on there things:
1) The impressive data they have on their own site comparing their oils to others.
2) Their unparalleled reputation in the racing community
3) My experience with some of their other products like MTL and SI-1 fuel injector cleaner which are very impressive.
Two out of the above three might be reason enough to use their stuff, but when you add all these together, I'm pretty confident I'm putting the best stuff available in my car.
I just bought an '84 Honda Accord with a 1.8 litre. It has 170,000 miles on it. Normally, I wouldn't even consider a car with so many miles, but a friend of mine told me about this car, which he said had been well maintained. I also only had $1500 to spend on a car. I was amazed at how quiet and smooth this engine ran. It started immediately. There was also no grease, or any indication of oil seepage anywhere on this engine. The car also drove perfectly as well.
Unfortunately, the woman's husband, who maintained the car, wasn't home at the time and she couldn't tell me what kind of oil he used, but she did say he was very maticulate about maintaining it. That was obvious. She sold me the car for $1100.
I took the car home and changed the oil and filter. Even the bottom of the engine was grease and oil free. I filled the engine with full synthetic, and installed a Puralator Pure One filter (I usually use a Mobil 1 filter, but I had to settle for the second best filter this time).
I saw a couple of posts mentioning Hondas, and just thought I'd mention mine. I have little doubt this car will easily go over 200,000 with no trouble, and I think using full synthetic will help.
Those stupendous prices on synthetics are part of what has whittled down my participation to a single GL4, GL5 product. I refuse to be held up at gunpoint, even if "new math" can show it to be acceptable.
I sort of know what you mean, but if it saves me money and time, i figure, why not...
I have seem some synthetics for about $2 a quart-- and target has mobil 1 for $2.70 a few months back.. I'm very sorry i didn't buy a bunch. Then again, i only change oil about one a year, so when you figure storage costs, and intrest, ummm....
I just checked the price of Mobil 1 last night at Target, and it was $4.49. The price has gone up recently. If anything, the price of all synthetics needs to come down. I don't see why they have to charge so much for this stuff. It can't possibly cost that much to manufacture. I think $3.00 a quart is more than enough.
Bottgers, do you want to tell us exactly how you came up with $3.00 as a retail cost per quart for synthetic oil? Is this for all types of 'synthetic' oil or merely PAO?
Have you priced out the equipment for making ethylene gas into a liquid recently? Has the price of ethylene gas gone up or down much in the past 5 or 10 years? How much of that $3.00 per quart would go towards bottling and distributing the product?
$3.00 per quart is just a nice round figure I pulled out the air. My point is, it probably doesn't cost any oil company more than $1.50 a quart to put their synthetic oil on the store's shelf. It's just a case of them pushing the price as high as they possibly can without hurting their amount of sales. They could sell their oil for $3.00 a quart, and still make 100% profit. How much stinkin' profit do they have to make on this stuff?
I don't think any of us has a really good handle on the economics involved. If they really could make a big profit at $2-3 a quart, you think someone'd just do it and bury the competition. If there's some form of gentelman's agreement, they could get busted for a trust.
I really do wish someone like consumer reports would do a test and settle the issue once an for all. BMW uses castrol syntec, and i wonder why.
I want to use synthetic gear oil to aid in cold weather shifting in my 87 F150 manual transmission.How well does this work?I have heard the synthetic attacks the RTV sealant and results in a leak.
Highly recommend it. Does not cause seal leaks. I have tried both Amsoil and RedLine and RedLine resulted in smoother shifts when cold but those two plus Mobil 1 I highly recommned.
Apparently some other people do not understand supply and demand or the idea of profit maximization. If the oil companies could make more money (due to higher sales) by selling it cheaper, they would. That is what they pay economists to figure out all day long. If these people were a stockholders and the company was just trying to sell stuff cheap to make people happy and not maximize profit, I imagine that they would be a little angry. Bottgers--Let me pose a question: If you had a 67 Corvette that you restored for less than $10,000 but was now worth $25,000 would sell it for only $10,000 or would you be greedy and sell it to the person that would be happy paying the market price--just a thought!
I saw Mobile 1 in a 5-quarts jug for $18 at Walmart, so it can be had for about $3/quart. Individually in 1-quart bottle, they cost $4.49/each. I plan to switch on my next oil change and probably go with Mobile 1.
If your trans calls for GL-4 you must use a GL-4. Mobil 1 is recommended for GL-4/GL-5 *** except*** for Manual transmissions calling for GL-5. You would be able to use it in the punkin however. I have Amsoil in the 2 punkins, transfer case and gearbox in my '94 Toy. Its OK but I'm not overly impressed. I believe armtdm who is an advocate for Amsoil, generally, will probably agree with me on that. I would recommend Red Line, although If you can use the Mobil 1 it may be OK- haven't tried it. And actually the GM Syncromesh isn't bad- its partially syn. Pretty pricy though $10/qt.
Yes, I'm not sure if using Redline MOTOR oils is worth the added expense ... but I'm awfully enthusiastic about their gear oils. I know a few people who've tried Valvoline and Mobil 1 gear oils and could not tell a difference but as ARMTDM has said, switching to Redline's polyol-based formula usually makes shifting noticeably better. Yes Redline oils are usually a bit more expensive but since you need so few quarts and the drain interval is so long for most applications, the expense is literally only an additional $2-3 per year (negligible).
Redline MTL and MT-90 are GL-4 and their 75W90 and a couple others are GL-5. If you contact Redline and tell them what climate you live in and what your manual calls for, they'll tell you what's the best to use. Some of their dealers like this guy could find out for you as well:
As for economics, you have to remember that ALL motor oils have remained fairly stable in price over the past 15+ years. I've been buying synthetics for over a decade and I can't remember when Mobil 1 was regularly priced at less than $3.50 per quart (individual bottles). Normal oil hovered around $1 per quart for well over a decade starting in the 80s. Now, those oils are around to $1.50-75 per quart. It seems the "conventional" oils have been increasing more in price as opposed to the synthetics which have risen to only $4.00-4.50 per quart. I'm certainly not complaining about price stability like that.
Want to be angry at someone? Aim your agression at Castrol. They switched their formula to a new one for Syntec that is reportedly only half as expensive as their old stuff ... yet they still charge $4.50 per quart retail. Talk about a rip-off! >:^O
Yes, if you buy the 4-5 quart jugs, both kinds of oil are cheaper ... but I'm trying to compare apples-to-apples here.
adc100, Mobil has a special synthetic for synchromesh transmissions now? I didn't know that.
Comments
Newcar31, if they recommend GL-5, I bet most brands of that stuff are safe. Don't think Redline will make an improvement? Don't be so sure. That's the best aspect of Redline MTL ... its cold weather performance. And despite the fact that you JUST changed your fluid, manual tranny fluid changes are cheap to do as you only need about 2 quarts ... depending on manufacturer. Trying Redline MTL or MT-90 is only about a $16 experiment. That's pretty cheap as far as automotive mods go. >;^)
As for comparisons between synthetics, the best comparison I've seen is on Redline's site and they showed that their oil was better than other synthetics ... but mostly when pushed to near-racing conditions which few cars see. They also only HINT at which other brands they are comparing their oil too.
Basically, I'm not satisfied with what I've seen so far.
So, If anyone has some other links to other synth oil studies, please post them.
--- Bror Jace
its listed in the owners manual.
Information please??
Even as a Mobil 1 user, I think it would be difficult (can you say expensive) to prove a couple of oils are better. That would mean very extensive testing of say 6 to 8 differerent oils. Engines need to be run in double/tripple Sequence Tests and then torn down and evaluated. Unfortunately I highly doubt this report did that.
I think I would have seen it if it existed.
Oil does not break down or get contaminated with acids etc. (based upon oil analysis ) but it does get silicon build up in my case.
Amsoil's are mostly GL-5 but they do make one 80W90 GL-4.
{:^>
Also, Redline has an unparalleled reputation amongst road-racers. Add this all up and I thought their stuff was worth a try ... and I was right.
Yes, MTL is a bit lighter than MT-90 (both are made by Redline). If you go to their site:
www.redlineoil.com
You'll see the specs for both (and others) so you'll know which is appropriate for any given application. Of course, they also have the thicker gear oils for rear-ends, etc ...
--- Bror Jace
One of my primary reasons for using Amsoil, besides good results over past 10 years, is that I can drive up to my jobber who keeps inventory and pick it off of the shelf and drive home. Not true for most people that have to have it shipped and most dealers also do not keep inventory.
Again, if you look at the marketing angle RedLine advertising is built upon racing and the assumption is that if the products are great for racing (where they change lubricants after every race) they are great for the average driver. We all know that this ain't necessarily so! Amsoil is more of the long haul average driver. Both great oils as is Mobil 1, just that RedLine is almost $3/quart more for me then Amsoil which I can get at $4.35/quart, most Redline quotes are $7.75/quart. Also, some RedLine dealers also sell Hasting filters as does Amsoil and of course Baldwin/Hastings makes the filters for Amsoil as well.
Some day CR will test the most popular synthetic oils for lubricatiuon, durability etc. and shed some light but truly independent tests I have never seen on synthetic oils.
I have read the Redline propaganda also and I must say that it sounded good. But as armtdm pointed out, it it good for the long term? How does it do on seals?? Im sure that if you desired the least wear possible and had no fear of seal deterioration or had unlimited funds to change frequently you would be happy. I would like to see them published in SAE also. In this way their data would be independently evaluated. This isn't sour grapes on my part-just some babbling.
how many of our cars actually come close to the conditions of what taxicabs go through?
cabs dont see as many cold starts as we do, they keep running most of the day, they dont go thru "stop and go" conditions the way we do.
as far as servicing is concerned, cabs come under the classification of "normal service" whereas most of us fall under the "severe service" category.
However, taxis in general, and the NY City yellow cabs in particular, endure a lot of "stop and go". Practically they are driven in this mode all the time when not idle. Traffic light to traffic light, jam to jam, in rather dense traffic.
Severe service by any definition.
By the way, I live in 75-80 miles from NY City. Most of my colleagues never drive here, prefering train, even bus, to their own cars when they need to be in the city. Americans born in America, not immigrans.
Later
Later,
Al
thanks a lot guy
First, no condensation: engines are always hot. Second, not enough time to rust. How long they are used, 30 months / 300K miles?
I'm not saying that the taxicab test was well done or technical enough in its approach; just saying that we don't really know for sure.
Any Consumers Union engineers out there?
There is also less valve noise on start up after sitting a couple days.
I plan on drains every 6 to 7k and use honda filters.
I did use the "snake oil" additive "Prolong" once in this car but the rest of the time I used a synthetic motor oil like Castrol Syntec (before and after reformulation) Mobil 1 and Valvoline Synpower. For the piston slap, I like to blame the Prolong which contains a corroding ingredient (and I'll OBVIOUSLY never use it again) along with the fact that I drive this car HARD - sustained high-speed cruises at 4,000-4,500 rpms for hours at a time. For example, around Labor Day, I drove from Saratoga, New York all the way up to Alexandria Bay and the "Thousand Islands" region and back in one day ... a total of 450 miles. Yes, as you can imagine, I MIGHT HAVE broken the speed limit on occasion during that trip. >;^)
So, I am trying to make the most of the lil' beast now ... and I trust Redline to do that more than anything else.
As for the way Redline is priced, with each dealer being a little different, that's fine with me. That's the way most products are sold in the world. Some will have low prices with others a little higher but with free or cheaper shipping. Depending on how you buy one or the other will work out better for you. Oh, and if you have a specialty, high-performance automotive store near you, that guy might be a Redline dealer. For example there's a Honda Dealer in Manchester Connecticut that sells about a third of Redline's product range. So, it's not just mail-order, although when asked for referrals by on-line friends and fellow enthusiasts, they are the easiest to provide.
As for 'racing' vs. 'street' oils, Redline explains this in detail on their site. Finding all the data on their site can be tricky as similar topics are discussed in a few different places. Basically, the difference comes down to the additive package. Racing oils are mostly lubricant with just a couple additives while the street oils need more detergents, anti-corrosion compounds and acid neutralizers for use over a much longer period of time.
--- Bror Jace
atleast in my case it did ..from valvoline to mobil1 gave me an increase of almost 3mpg, plus the engine sounded smoother.
It makes no sense to me that people would prefer to know that all Amsoil dealers charge the same price. Wouldn't it be better if some dealers sold it for less than others, so you had the opportunity to seek out the best price? That's kinda what this country is all about.
Redline and some others (Stash Tea & Natures Way herbal products come immediately to mind) merely sell to the end user only as a last resort and they specifically price their products so that any dealer can undercut them, at least a little. This approach balances support of their dealer network (and no dealer will take on a product line if they know the home office will sell directly cheaper than they can) while making sure they are not 100% reliant on their dealers. I think the first time I used MTL I ordered it directly from Redline in California (I live in upstate NY) and it cost me $10 per quart including S&H!
But now, in an age of e-commerce and catalog sales where you aren't dependent on one local dealer, I could see them coming out with a policy any day that says they won't sell directly to end users but instead will send you a listing of their dealers. One thing about the direct sales they DO make, however, is that the margins on those sales are enormous. Products are usually marked up 100% every time they pass from one party to another in a typical automotive product distribution chain so by going from factory to end user, the margin is often 200-400% if sold at the MSRP... which is usually the case.
--- Bror Jace
ADC100, thanks for the encouraging advice. My 'Lil Honda runs like a top once warmed up ... and starts right up even in sub-zero temps. My Dad's a big Ford man and he had to get rid of his 1994 Mercury with Fords 4.6L engine. The thing ran fine for about 80,000 miles but then it just limped along and we replaced everything trying to get it running normal and all we were able to do was get it to survive. Dad dumped the thing with "only" 130,000 miles on it. I gotta keep my Honda longer than that. >;^) That means at least another year and a half.
As for Redline motor oil, I'm basing my (limited) enthusiasm for the stuff based on there things:
1) The impressive data they have on their own site comparing their oils to others.
2) Their unparalleled reputation in the racing community
3) My experience with some of their other products like MTL and SI-1 fuel injector cleaner which are very impressive.
Two out of the above three might be reason enough to use their stuff, but when you add all these together, I'm pretty confident I'm putting the best stuff available in my car.
--- Bror Jace
Unfortunately, the woman's husband, who maintained the car, wasn't home at the time and she couldn't tell me what kind of oil he used, but she did say he was very maticulate about maintaining it. That was obvious. She sold me the car for $1100.
I took the car home and changed the oil and filter. Even the bottom of the engine was grease and oil free. I filled the engine with full synthetic, and installed a Puralator Pure One filter (I usually use a Mobil 1 filter, but I had to settle for the second best filter this time).
I saw a couple of posts mentioning Hondas, and just thought I'd mention mine. I have little doubt this car will easily go over 200,000 with no trouble, and I think using full synthetic will help.
I have seem some synthetics for about $2 a quart-- and target has mobil 1 for $2.70 a few months back.. I'm very sorry i didn't buy a bunch. Then again, i only change oil about one a year, so when you figure storage costs, and intrest, ummm....
dave
The phenomenon is: "How high will the suckers let us push the price?"
Have you priced out the equipment for making ethylene gas into a liquid recently? Has the price of ethylene gas gone up or down much in the past 5 or 10 years? How much of that $3.00 per quart would go towards bottling and distributing the product?
Just wondering. >;^)
--- Bror Jace
I really do wish someone like consumer reports would do a test and settle the issue once an for all. BMW uses castrol syntec, and i wonder why.
dave
Probably about the same as with conventional, natural oil. The same bottles, the same transportation, storage costs, etc.
....
Redline MTL and MT-90 are GL-4 and their 75W90 and a couple others are GL-5. If you contact Redline and tell them what climate you live in and what your manual calls for, they'll tell you what's the best to use. Some of their dealers like this guy could find out for you as well:
http://www.auto-motor-oil.com/
As for economics, you have to remember that ALL motor oils have remained fairly stable in price over the past 15+ years. I've been buying synthetics for over a decade and I can't remember when Mobil 1 was regularly priced at less than $3.50 per quart (individual bottles). Normal oil hovered around $1 per quart for well over a decade starting in the 80s. Now, those oils are around to $1.50-75 per quart. It seems the "conventional" oils have been increasing more in price as opposed to the synthetics which have risen to only $4.00-4.50 per quart. I'm certainly not complaining about price stability like that.
Want to be angry at someone? Aim your agression at Castrol. They switched their formula to a new one for Syntec that is reportedly only half as expensive as their old stuff ... yet they still charge $4.50 per quart retail. Talk about a rip-off! >:^O
Yes, if you buy the 4-5 quart jugs, both kinds of oil are cheaper ... but I'm trying to compare apples-to-apples here.
adc100, Mobil has a special synthetic for synchromesh transmissions now? I didn't know that.
--- Bror Jace