Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
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--- Bror Jace
So, as someone mentioned, who cares beyond minus 30 F, The rest of the car is frozen solid but the oil will pour?
Also, there IS a theory that allowing the engine to spin faster at initial start up (because of synthetic motor oil) in extreme cold is hard on all the other parts that DON'T have synthetic oil in them ... like the power steering, etc ... I remain skeptical about this.
I've seen those Walmart Mobil 1 oil sales before They can vary from store to store even in the same region. Their 'normal' sale price is $17.88 for those 5 quart jugs. I'm almost sorry I switched to Redline synthetic oil ... >;^)
--- Bror Jace
Without the humor, my point is that you use the best, and it costs more than the pretender to the synthetic throne. Hang in there. The Diamondbacks sure did!!!
--- Bror Jace
At 7K I put on an oversize Pure One Filter and at 10K the oil is a very very light gold- probably lighter than your average engine oil. I really wanted to change, but can't justify it. I will go to at least 8K on this change (Filter at 3K). I guess one of my points is that the 30 mile oil change to syn seems to have agreed with the 'ol Sentra.
Could a fuse be causing the AirBag light to blink?
Why don't you try to find a Ford or electronic gremlins related topic in this forum (there are nmany to choose from) and post your question in there?
--- Bror Jace
there are some things that just cannot be fixed from a message board.
You didn' t say how often you plan on changing oil and filter/ On two of my cars I go 7,500 oil and filter, other 2 go 12,000 filter at 6months/6000 miles
I use Redline gear oil but Amsoil oil and filters for all else, slightly less expensive then RedLine.
ocelot1 made a point regarding certifications which got me thinking about whether Red Line met Ford’s WSS-M2C153-G certification for my 4.0L V-6(again, worried about warranty issues). Their tech sheets don’t even reference SL or GF-3 certification so I emailed them to ask. I’ll let you know what I learn.
I’d like to use Red Line products in the trans, diff and rear end, too, but I’ll have to find a shop that will do a credible job changing it for me since I don’t have the equipment to do those myself. What’s your recommendation on changing the transmission fluid to synthetic? Just drain it and refill with syn or something more extensive to get more of the petroleum-based stuff out?
Thanks for your help.
Youi can e-mail Redline regarding your concerns but I'm 99% sure that there latest formulas will meet or (likely) exceed SL specs. Also, give them that Ford number. The problem may be that Ford's specs might be proprietary and they don't release them. Only one way to find out.
Ocelot, I wouldn't be surprised if the Chevron 5W20 is formulated with "IsoSyn" whish is hydro-isomeruized petroleum ... which some companies WOULD call synthetic. They use this stuff in their excellent "Delo" line and have a small symbol of it on the front.
Do you know if their synthetic is PAO or hydrocracked crude?
Except for the Delo heavy-duty oils, they are not sold in most parts of the northeast.
--- Bror Jace
Ford would have to publish the specs otherwise no one would ever be able to meet them. Shell states that they meet the Ford WSS-M2C153H on their 5W-20 FormulaShell so the spec is out there for producers to use.
As for the mileage before switching, one of Red Line’s tech support guys said, “We recommend that you allow the rings to seat before installing the Red Line, this will typically happen easily by 1000 miles, if you wait 1500 to 2000 miles, then most of the high initial wear will have occurred.” Sounds like there’s some wiggle room – just let the rings seat and then go for it!
Thanks much!
the race car guys swear by it, and i have one friend in Hawaii who uses it and everything checks out great. and yes, it looks like koolaid when you pour it.
Quite honestly, if you are going to be worried about the warranty and change with RedLine every 5000 I would not bother. I would go with dino at 3000 until your warranty is up and then switch. RedLine is too expensive to change every 5000 miles and with dino at 3000 you will get the same longevity out of the engine. Only reason to use synthetic given your situation would be very cold climate.
I am convinced that part of the reason manufactureres are going towards powertrain warranties of 100,000 are to assure people concerned about voiding theri warranty to keep going back to the dealer for service. Most people drop dealers for oil changes as soon as the warranty is up, extending it now builds service dept. revenue.
Seelig, take a look at Royal Purple's site:
www.synerlec.com
Their "tech information" is laughable and their formulas are not even 100% synthetic. I'd avoid this over-hyped stuff. They are just another small company trying to take advantage of people wanting a better oil for their cars.
--- Bror Jace
I have seen people promote royal purple very heavily. It's a dino oil with a very heavy duty additive package. I still beleive that the synthetic base stock is an important thing.
dave
I spoke with Quaker State about their New 5W-20 SL. It is definitely a Synthetic Blend oil. They had to add the synthetic because conventional oil that thin wouldn't meet the wear requirements.
dave
Well, the waste was paying for synthetic what are you saying here?????
I saw the stuff being poured once. It really does pour like water.
There's no question to me that the CAFE standards and trying to reduce Miles per Gallon is a huge reason for the lighter oil. I believe Honda does the same thing.
Personally I would use 5W-20 during the warranty period then switch to 5W-30 after that.
Mobil 1 in my bmw seems perfectly fine after 10K miles. It's still the same color. I use the oil change lights on this car, which seems to want me to change it every 11,000-12,000 miles with my regular driving, longer if i throw in several road trips. I think it wants a change every 480 gallons of gas used. 3K changes with dino would be more expensive by a significant margin. The car takes 6.5 quarts of oil and a $7 filter. $35 in materials over 12K miles, vs $12.50 every 3K miles. And this even excludes labor--that makes it $60 every 12K vs $35 every 3K.
Our saab puts more junk into the oil, it seems.. It turns pretty dark after 4K miles or so. We stick to the manufacturer's guideline of 5K mile changes there, but we use mobil 1. Saab claims you can use dino oil for 10K intervals. I really doubt it. I think using synthetic is more crucial in the saab because the oil cools the turbo, which gets very very hot, and it can coke regular oil if you don't idle the car for a minute when stopping after driving hard.
A friend of mine has an old subaru. The oil turns black in a few hundred miles after an oil change. She uses dino oil and changes every 1,000 miles.
So, i guess what i have learned is it matters on the car and the conditions--warranty, driving conditions, the mechanical condition of the car, etc.
The saturn would have been better off with 3,000 dino changes. It used up the expensive oil, and dumped a lot of contaminant into the crankcase, it seems. The saab & bmw are best off with synthetic for their own reasons ( long intervals, hot running ). Synthetic in the old subaru would be a waste.
dave
When I buy heavy duty dino oil, I buy Chevron Delo 400 in 15W40. The only other weight available around here is 30W. For older power equipment we have around here, the machines that keep mosquitoes away when they're running (if you know what I mean), I use this stuff ... sometimes with a little Mobil 1 15W50 mixed in.
wtd444, yes, 5W20 is strictly to pick up another teensy bit of mileage ... about 0.5-2% more which allows some companies to keep selling some gas-guzzlers without being hit with extra taxes. I've talked to people about this when it was brand new and they assured me there was no way that all the vehicles in both fleet's engine tolerance could have changed in one model year. If you think about it, that makes a whole lot of sense. If I were to buy a new Honda or Ford that calls for this ultra-thin stuff, I'd use it for about 15,000-20,000 miles (draining it every 3,000) then switch to a synthetic 5W30 for the next 60-80,000 miles. This is essentially what Mr. Detailer said.
Interesting to hear about the Ford's aversion to 10W30. How long ago was this? I knew a mechanic that was told not to use 10W30 in his Chevy Lumina's V-6 (3.1L, I think)because it caused the rings to stick and scored the heck out of the front bank of cylinders. I don't know if he was full of it or not.
dhanley that's odd that Saturn would make that kind of threat. I have a buddy that has 90,000 miles on his '97 Saturn and it all of a sudden started burning oil at the alarming rate of 1 quart of 5W30 every 1,000 miles. I know he changed his oil (dino) and filter regularly. I wonder what happened? My guess is his valve seals disintegrated as there are no other signs of engine trouble (leaks, fouled plugs, oily exhaust film, etc ...). I told him to switch to 10W30 for most of the year (possibly Valvoline Max-Life) and keep me posted.
What does your BMW call for? 15W50 is really thicker than necessary in most parts of North America ... even in the summer. 10W30 is a good, heavy-duty choice and you won't lose a little bit of mileage and horsepower (2-5%) like you will with the thicker stuff.
I love the bit about your Saab Turbo calling for extended oil changes using dead dino oil. Are these people crazy? 10K miles with the heat that can be found in a turbo's bearings? That's just foolish. I guess they are just interested in getting the owner through the warranty period.
I deal a lot with kids ("ricers") from Southern California and they buy into all kinds of silly hype and one of my pet peeves is some of their allegiance to Royal Purple oil. This stuff is really all flash and hype. Out of the bottle, I heard it has a deep purple color to it ... but this is just a flashy gimmick because one of the people I talked to about this stuff says that the color goes away quickly. Now, why would you add a dye to your fluid that will quickly break down? Automotive oils don't need highly unstable additives ... unless you are more into shallow marketing than you are into producing quality lubricants.
--- Bror Jace
The BMW calls for 5w30 up to only 50F. They recommend 15w40 if you experience temperatures over 50F. The mobil 15w50 as as thick as their 15w40 so i figure it's OK. They say the 15w40 is ok down to -20, and again the mobil 1 should be as good according to the charts i've seen. They just use thick oil -- I guess the oil pump is pretty powerful?
Yeah, i won't use dead dino on the saab at all. But for 10K miles? With it cooling the turbo? Yikes!
I think you're dead on about the royal purple. Why add dye to the oil? I could buy regular oil and add a little dye to it, but i'd rather not!
dave
i ask this because you must have some first hand info that proves that RP is what you claim it is. since you are so willing to suggest the Valvoline Max-Life to someone, i feel you are in posession of long term test results on whatever you approve or disapprove of when telling us what we should or shouldn't use.
thx
---seelig
They wrote:
Thank you for your message of 11/12/01 regarding your 2002 Ford Explorer. We appreciate the time you have taken to write us regarding a list of commercially available engine oil.
Congratulations on the purchase of the 2002 Ford Explorer! We are pleased to welcome you to the Ford family.
All alterations or modifications to Ford Motor Company vehicles must be done in compliance with all applicable State and Federal statutes and regulations. If an after-market modification is linked to a component failure, the warranty may be voided for that repair. If this were the case, you would need to seek assistance from the manufacturer or installer of the non-Ford Motor Company product for repairs. Therefore, Ford Motor Company does not recommend modifications to your vehicle.
We strongly recommend discussing this modification with the Service Department of your local Ford dealership before initiating this procedure. Ford Technicians have the necessary training and experience to advise you of what effects this modification may have on your warranty or the operation of your vehicle.
Ford's goal is to make your ownership experience an enjoyable one. Customer satisfaction is our number one goal.
At Ford Motor Company, we consider the satisfaction of our customers as one of our most important objectives. If you have any other inquiries or concerns, please feel free to contact us and we will be happy to address them.
Thank you for contacting Ford Motor Company. (End)
Incredible! I asked why they would tell me (in the Owners Manual) the spec on all other fluids in the car, but not the engine oil. No reply that makes sense. I guess they think their dealers are the only ones that can change oil responsibly. Either that or it’s too big a moneymaker!
Red Line confirmed that their oil satisfies Ford’s requirements.
I heard it's the material the valve seals (located at/near the valve stems - relatively easy to get to) that crumbles over time. Replacing these should return the car to its previous oil consumption pattern. We don't have emissions testing in this area of upstate NY but I can imagine how consuming a quart of oil per month would affect them.
As for the Mobil 1 being a waste, don't be too sure. Your bearings and all the other parts on the car must have been really well protected over all those miles ... even if that stuff couldn't save the valve seals.
Do you have a URL for a good on-line Saturn group or two? I'd like to pass that on as well.
I'm surprised your BMW calls for 15W40 ... but I guess that makes sense if they want to use extended drain intervals and dead-dino juice. Those temperatures ARE Fahrenheit and not Celsius, right? >;^)
Then your choice of Mobil 1 15W50 is a really good one and I'd stick with it. It'll flow better than the dino 15W40s in the cold (although I'd be running 5W30 or 10W30 around here during the 4 winter months) and will protect better, longer when the temps rise.
As for what Saab is smoking, I think the DEA should look into it. >;^)
greg, Sorry to hear that Ford's response was merely a bunch of corporate CYA effluvia. That's typical these days. It's funny, but I never considered using a well-known brand of engine oil as "an aftermarket modification to my vehicle". That reply makes little sense. It sounds like you asked them what happens if you mounted a turbocharger on your engine. What a bunch of jerks.
Honda gets that way too sometimes but at least with them, I KNOW that many of their fluids are a unique formulation (especially their power steering fluid) so there's a reason for their warnings, some of them anyway.
--- Bror Jace
In the case of Valvoline Max-Life, I was quick to dismiss this stuff when I first heard of it and saw the price. I figured it was regular motor oil with a bit of a seal-swelling additive and not a good value. A guy I know called their 800 number and talked to one of the chemists. He said that the oil was actually Group III stocks (instead of typical Group II) so it is chemically very similar to Castrol Syntec ... at half the price. Also, this stuff, along with the additive package was very beneficial to seals (test info on Valvoline's site). So, I recommended it to a buddy that owns my old '90 Integra (160K miles on the clock) because he was thinking of switching the car off synthetics as it was getting old, rusting and leaking a bit more than usual. When he switched oils, he told me that he was impressed with the stuff and it cut down on the car's oil consumption (burning and leaking) significantly. His testimony was good enough for me to make occasional recommendations to others.
As for Royal Purple, it is not even a fully synthetic oil ... it's a blend of some synthetic (PAO? hydrocracked crude?) and a regular/mineral oil. You have to really dig around to find this out. The fact that they're sly about this important tidbit is a clue that something's not on the up and up. Just how much of their formula is synthetic and how much is much cheaper dead-dino juice? Who knows? Last time I checked, they weren't saying.
Another clue that might steer people away from their oil is the laughable "technical info" on their site. See for yourself:
www.synerlec.com
Their data shows some numbers but they don't tell you what they're measuring, if anything. Is it some sort of 'specialness' quotient that Royal Purple has above and beyond all other oils? To me it's all so much nonsense which makes them look very unprofessional and not entirely honest. Where are the industry standard SAE tests that some other synthetic producers conduct and make public, hmmm?
Royal Purple has a secret ingredient called "Synerlec" in their oils. If this isn't the classic snake oil sales pitch, I don't know what is. Their secret ingredient is probably common ZDDP or PTFE or some other compound found in the 'miracle' products whose companies are all currently being sued by the FTC for false advertising claims. This sort of thing really turns me off.
Ever see the Royal Purple TV ads on ESPN, TNN or the like? They are produced JUST LIKE those snake oil infomercials. When I see this, I don't want to walk away ... I want to RUN. >8^O
I've never used Royal Purple (it's sold mostly in the West and Southwest) but one guy I talked to that tried it said that the purple color goes away after only a few hundred miles. Assuming this is true, ever wonder what happens to the dye used to turn the oil purple? Does it evaporate off through your PCV system or does it decompose and form sludge and goo inside your motor? So, what's the point of adding that stuff anyway if it's so unstable? I'll tell you why it's there. It's merely a gimmick to give the average consumer the false notion that Royal Purple is 'special' and different from other synthetic oils on the market. I can just hear the typical motorist as they pour this stuff into their engine:
"Ooh, look at the purty color! This stuff must be MUCH better than that ugly junk I used to use!"
Aside from the people on their ads and website, do you see any REAL racers that use Royal Purple? I don't. Compare that to the example I often cite of the Goodyear advertisement in Grassroots Motorsports that showed pictures all the SCCA championship teams who used their tires. A close inspection also revealed that 8 out of 10 of the cars pictured also used Redline oil. Now THAT is a powerful (because it was unintentional) endorsement.
I heard from one Subaru owner who put Royal Purple gear oil in his transaxle and it became noticeably noisier than when it held the factory fluid ... a sure sign of increased friction and/or wear. Afterwards, he switched to Redline or some other brand and was much happier.
All the evidence suggests that Royal Purple is not one of the better product lines available ... and it's premium-priced to boot. Yes, my evidence is mostly anecdotal and you might nitpick at some of it here and there but when you add it all up, it becomes overwhelming and suggests that this stuff, like some others (synergen, nuology (sp?), etc ...), is best avoided. This is especially true when you look at how many reputable brands are available. The larger companies have teams of chemists working full time on their formulas. Contrast this with a couple of guys working out of their garage who bottle up some stuff they bought wholesale from some other company, put an unstable purple dye in it and that's supposed to be an improvement? Sorry, but I can't believe that. Not for a second.
--- Bror Jace
brorjace says what he thinks and does his best to explain why he thinks so. He doesn't pretend to be the Grand Poobah of engine lubricants. Cut him some slack. His posts are some of the most thoughtful, informative, and helpful ones on this board. I enjoy reading them. And I enjoy reading the posts from you that discuss the topic and not the other posters.
The valve seals may be easy, but the way i figured it, if i had kept the car 100,000 more miles than i did, running dino, dumping in a quart every 1000 miles.. It'd be <$100. That would cover almost no work at all.
I sold it just before 100,000 miles, so it cost me 50 quarts or so, it just irked me that those were mobil 1 quarts.
I'm sure it did a good job protecting the bearings, but as i sold it before 100,000 miles, it probably didn't help me too much.
I agree about the royal purple. I have a nasty gut reaction to snake oil. Unfortunately there seems to be a lot of it in car care.
dave
Had a conversation with a new Porsche owner (Boxter S) a few days ago, recommended change interval is 12,000 miles and they use the European weight 0W40. He said it looked like water. Another owner had a 10 year old 944 that he changes the oil on every 10-12,000 as well.
Does anyone care to comment on why European high performance engines can have the 10-15,000 recommended intervals yet the four bangers and six cylinder American and Japanese engines still recommend the 3,000-7,500 changes. Granted the performance engines have a higher crankcase capacity by several quarts but is that it alone?