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Comments
Bob
Well, even though I was the one who originally asked the wide/dog tall dog question, I don't have any dogs myself. I do like dogs, I just don't like living with them. We have three cats, who prefer to sit in the window of the house and watch as we drive off.
Also a dissenting opinion on the sound system topic. I have the premium sound option in my Legacy L and I think it sounds great. Of course I've never had a premium system of any type before, so I'm probably easily impressed. I'm perfectly capable of installing electronic gear if need be, but I decided not to go through the trouble, and I'm happy with the Sube system.
Dave
I heard the Subie stereos in several guises in MY00 Legacy sedans:
- stock
- with added tweeters
- with added tweeters and subwoofer
- the whole nine yards
In a nutshell, I think the factory tweeter and subwoofer upgrades are hard to beat for the money.
Given the fact that the stock speakers are all mounted low in the doors, tweeters are a *necessity* for anyone who wants to hear voices or musical subtleties clearly. The nice thing about the factory jobs is the custom fit; they sound fine too, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that others sound better. One way to go might be with the "component" speaker sets that appear to be popular lately; you could get replacement door speakers that come packaged with their own separate, matched tweeters. If my car had not come with tweeters that's what I would have done. The cost of doing that would be higher than just getting the factory tweeters however.
The subwoofer makes a noticeable improvement to the overall dynamic range regardless of what type of music you listen to. (The Star Wars Episode I soundtrack sounds absolutely awesome with the sub.) It has an 80 watt amp so there is plenty of boost. I tend to set the bass level below 0; it's not boomy or muddy at those levels. Here again I'm sure there are aftermarket subs that do a better job. But the Subie sub works well, plus it installs totally out of sight under the front seat - there's that "factory fit" again. I've seen aftermarket subs that are custom made to fit behind panels in the backs of SUV's and wagons; if you could find one for a Subie wagon that might make for a a nice installation. But I doubt it will cost less than the factory sub.
I couldn't tell the difference with the upgraded door speakers. To be honest, once you're at highway speed I'd be surprised if anyone could. It's not that the Subie is loud inside - not at all, but road noise is road noise and it dulls the edge of any sound system.
Finally, my son lives in an area where car breakins are a real problem. He tells me that aftermarket head units are prime targets, along with factory upgrades in popular cars like Honda Civics (Subies are uncommon where he lives and therefore safe - whew!) So depending on where you live you may want to consider keeping your stereo upgrades as unobtrusive as you can. What's that old saying: "Out of sight, out of mind."
HTH,
WDB
http://www.drive.com.au/news/default.asp?section=news&page=http://drive.fairfax.com.au/content/20000427/news/news3.html
Cheers
Graham
I also installed the OEM tweeters because of the designed fit...they seem pretty good. I have not dished out $$ on door speakers, and since I am no audiophile, I doubt I will. I find the Pioneer made such an improvement over the stock unit, that I am happy the way it is now. It provides adequate highs, and with the Pioneer's built in amp (MOSFET chip), bass is also quite good. If you are a subwoofer type, then consider the Subaru unit since it is less intrusive than many aftermarket bass tubes or boxes....if I remember correctly it fits under the front passenger seat (obviously..space is important to me).
Thanks for everyone's help out there!! Let me know if that price sounds like it was a decent deal. (It came out to be right at what I figured was the invoice price - maybe 100 dollars more.)
Thanks!!!
K
For my roof, they had to cut the roof rails shorter, and reinstall them. It was $70 extra, plus the regular $300 for the pop-up, or $370 total. Adler & Mandell did it, they're an ASC approved shop.
JP: that's funny. Another regular here (forget who) had an early Forester and traded it in for the 2000 Legacy. In both cases, it's reassuring that both of you stuck with Subaru.
I had said that about dogs. OK, I guess we're "pet" people.
I guess the advantage of Subaru OE is that you can finance it as part of the vehicle, though I'm partial to aftermarket stuff myself.
BTW, I thought the sub was under the driver's seat, isn't it?
-juice
Until I bought my first Subaru (92) I had ALWAYS bought aftermarket systems. IMHO Subaru's Premium system is well balanced, clean and plenty powerful for my aging taste (which does not extend to announcing my arrival two blocks away). Yeah, you could go to all the trouble (and expense; lets be honest) of ripping out the stock system and installing an aftermarket, but the gain might be minimal. If you opt for the hassle, make sure you get an A+ system (it won't come cheap).
Just about to 12k on my 2K OB, holding up so far.... It's interesting how the stereo reviews are almost split down the middle, half say replace the head unit and the speakers are fine, the other half says head units fine, replace the speakers. When I had my Forester, I thought the stereo was awful and had to buy a pair of Polk speakers, made all the difference in the world. My OB came with the premium stereo and I have found it acceptable. If I knew a safe, easy way to remove the door panels, I might put my Polks in the OB. (The forester had little panels in front of the speaker that made it real easy to replace) My question is, though, lately my bass has been a bit boomy and distorted. After 12000 miles, its something I would have noticed before. Any ideas what might have changed? The stereo settings have been the same, I even lowered the bass a bit.
I have also bottomed-out several times driving probably a bit too fast through some construction zones on the parkway. I assume something is hitting the ground when I hear a boom (I'm a real gearhead, can't you tell?) My question is, what's hitting? I guess the .2" of the Forester really makes a difference, I didn't think this would happen with the OB ground clearance. You think I should get the Diff Protector, and is it just a four bolt installation?
I do enjoy the OB, but I admit, I do miss my Forester sometimes. The dealer I traded it into sold it to someone up the street from me! i get to see it pass my house a lot.
Happy trails, Vince14
vince14
Oh well, at least I spelled weather right this time.
Vince
Randy
Vince: if the Forester didn't bottom out and your new Outback does, it's probably because of the added weight (400 lbs) in the Outback. 0.2" is not that much.
Ed: if you have a 5 speed park on a hill just in case, so you can jump start it. I'd also just run the engine every hour for a few minutes or so to get the alternator running.
Have a cool story. About a year ago a friend of my stepmom's came over, and asked me about my Forester. I promptly took her for a test drive, even though there was leftover ice and snow on the ground. We drove into an area with new homes that was unfinished, unplowed, and hilly, and of course we got right through, even though it scared her a bit that I was willing to try.
Of course she ended up buying one. She'd also been dryving Toyotas all her life, so it was a conquest sale.
It was nice to see it's been perfectly reliable for her, and she loves it. Makes you feel warm and fuzzy, don't it?
-juice
Instead I pulled the door posts out and found the wires to the rear speakers and spliced a set of speakers I put in the cargo area of the OB.
To make a long story short, my problem was primarily with the stock rear speakers -- because they are so low on the door, you can never really hear them. Putting speakers in the cargo area made all the difference. I also replaced the stock head unit, which IMHO is pretty bad -- (I don't have the premium package, so I don't know if the stock head unit would have been better). Anyway, the car sounds fantastic.
-- ash
-juice
PS For my previous car I custom built a wood parcel shelf with two JBL speakers and a 12" sub w/amp mounted underneath. It was pretty schweet, but I've decided to save my hearing from now on!
Now my question on Subaru quality -- though I'm a Subaru zealot, I noted the comment several posts ago that US Outbacks perhaps are not made as well as the ones in Europe or Australia. I'm a reader of the Brit car mags, so I know they put the Impreza and the Legacy at the top of the JD Power lists over there. Here n the states, they arated very high as well, but a notch or two below Hondas/Toyotas (if I remember right)
So I'm curious -- where are the European Subarus built; has anyone seen anything definitive about quality differences; does the Japanese-built Foresters seem to be higher qualilty than the Indiana-built Outbacks?
And by the way -- we have two Outbacks, one RS 2.5 and a Forester in our family (thanks to my evangelizing) and the only problem has been a warning light on the RS 2.5.
seat, isn't it?
-juice<<
No, the subwoofer/amp is tucked under the passenger seat, at least in my 00 Legacy.
Dave
-Colin
I don't suspect it's the location, because the Rodeo built in the exact same plant has truly awful reliability scores. It's listed as a used car to avoid for model years 95-99, while all Subarus built there are best bets.
US labor is as good as any. It's the engineering and design that affects quality more, IMO. Most high quality, high volume Japanese cars are built here (Camry, Accord, etc).
On the other hand, one could argue the factories in Japan are better supervised, and point out that while Toyotas are built here, Lexii are mostly built in Japan.
I wonder what exactly JD Power measures in the UK. Here, it's the initial quality for the first 90 days. To me, a longer term score is more meaningful, especially once the vehicle's warranty is out (so it would cost you).
-juice
My only experience with Detroit manufacturers has been the low-quality days of the 70-80's (ok, my parents' experience actually). I erroneously extrapolated that to mean all US (auto) labor is low-quality, possibly due to unions (in my uninformed, ignorant opinion -- don't flame me, I'm coming clean here.) You make a good point, juice -- the Isuzu Rodeo and Subaru Legacy are built in the same plant from same US labor pool, yet the build quality is quite different (and I'm putting words in your mouth by equating reliability with build quality when they are actually two different animals). I still can't help but wonder: if "identical" (ignoring country-specific differences) Legacy models were compared, would the quality of the Japan-built differ from the US-built?
..Mike
..Mike
2, There is a difference. Check out the body panel gaps and trim molding fit & finish for starters. Go into the dealership and compare a few new Foresters, Legacies and Imprezas.
-Colin
I take CR FWIW. I read some of their high-tech reviews and think they don't have a clue. However, I put much more value on their surveys from actual owners than I do on their subjective opinions.
-juice
I mounted the cargo area speakers in closed grey boxes and then velcroed them to the rubber mat in the back of the OB
Works like a charm. The wires are all hidden out of view under the rubber mat, and past there along the door ledge (I took that apart as well as the door posts). So it's a pretty clean looking install.
Took about an hour per side.
-- ash
Bolt on some speakers, a sub, an amp or two, and rock the house.
But where would the baby stroller go? And would the child seat tether interfere?
Boy, I'm getting old.
-juice
PS ash: sounds like a practial, clever solution
CU addresses many issues the typical car magazines either gloss over, or ignore completely. Whether you agree with them or not, they do have tremendous influence with the public. I know many "car buffs" write them off because their opinions differ from those they may hold. Sometimes the truth hurts.
In any case, they offer a different -- and often very useful perspective. Even though I'm defending them here, I too don't agree with them all the time. However, they do have a pretty good batting average. They offer good, solid information... and any information (whether you agree or disagree) is very useful when it comes time to make purchases.
Bob
..Mike
Read the topic Mike Smith linked. If nothing else, search for the posts from "vivona" and read the ones from me. In particular, make sure you don't miss the article linked in #149.
-Colin
But, like I said, take their opinions FWIW.
-juice
My new 5 speed Forester L is about 90 minutes old. Just like everyone else with a new Sube, it currently smells like it is about to catch fire. The Phase II engine is sweet in the Forester (I drove an auto L 2000 Legacy for a week and it was a bit uninteresting). Maybe too quiet, but smooth and with plenty of torque - would be awsome with a light pressure turbo in the 2.5l. Cruises along at 80-85kmh on the freeway (there are lots of radars out today - end of the month) in 5th at barely 1800rpm. Maybe too quiet - all I can hear is the tires. NO problems as yet with the clutch or gearbox. So far so good. I have new tinting applied this morning - when is it safe to let the dog into the back (wet nose prints on windows)?
Dealer is talking cnd$40,000 plus for the WRX when it comes in (2001?), but has promissed me the first test drive. Heck, I've spent so much time in that place over the last 2 months - I should have my own desk.
Have a good weekend, JP
My wife and I are native Marylanders (Baltimorons actually) and enjoy reading the posts of the folks back home.
We also have a dog. Nugget, a Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier who rides in his crate in the back.
I will post my impressions of the new Forester when it arrives.
Dave
One way to compare the build quality of the japanese v american built cars would be to check 1999/2000 sold cars in the UK. The old model Legacy was sold as the Legacy Classic, reminiscent of the Coke thing. It cost about 15% less than the Japanese build car.
Cheers
Graham
Bob
No one can ever be entirely objective. Still, CR is quite good at being objective within their subjective parameters, as it were. What is subjective about CR is that they test things for use by the average consumer.
If you read a test by CR on stereos, and you are an average guy (or gal) living in the suburbs with spouse and 2.5 kids, you care about a different set of things than if you are a single guy with $30,000 worth of musical instruments in your one-room apartment in the bad part of town. CR matches up with the guy who wants to spend no more than a few hundred bucks on speakers. They simply do not care whether you can get 40 megawatts of 25 kHz sound with under 0.00003% distortion!
The same holds for cars. CR tries to test for what the average consumer wants. Read their ratings with this in mind, and pick out the useful parts of their statistics, where "useful" means "matches up with the things I care about".
Chris
Case #1: refrigerators. I purchased a refrigerator based on their recommendations and it is nothing like the wonderful product they described. At the time they tested freezers by stuffing them solid with boxes of frozen vegetables. That is not usually how freezers are used in the real world, and yet that method has a dramatic effect on the results of the test; the mass of the vegetables themselves tends to equalize temperatures throughout the volume of the freezer. It turns out that in the real world the freezer section of the refrigerator I purchased is only marginal, at best, at keeping temperatures consistent inside a half- to three quarters-full refrigerator. CR rated it tops.
Case #2: garden tractors. According to CR you should go buy the cheapest one you can find because they all cut grass the same, and that is after all why you are buying the thing. That may be true on the flat, level football field where they tested them, but is most emphatically not the case out here in the real world which is rife with slopes, bumps, dips, rocks, and obstacles that must be mown around. Also they utterly fail to consider the longevity of those cheapo mowers, which is abysmal. I may be wrong but I believe it is environmentally friendlier to buy one mower that will last 15 or 20 years than it is to buy 3 or 4 mowers over that same period. Plus the overpriced-in-their-opinion lawn tractor I purchased has a seat which provides genuine lumbar support, something none of their cheapos even come close to doing. I could go on; suffice it say that what they measured and how they measured it is not consistent with what I measure and how I measure it.
Enough of my CR rant. They report to consumers, and if you follow their recommendations you will certainly get the opportunity to do more consuming. Put me down as a seeker and buyer of quality products who takes his CR with a barrel of salt.
Regards,
WDB
WDB- In my original post on this topic I stated that I don't agree with em all the time. I remember years ago they thought the best cars (using the parameters of the day) were large American sedans. Well, that is no longer true. I know CR thinks very highly of Subaru products, especially the Forester. Would anybody here disagree with that assessment?
As I said eariler, all information is valuable, no mater who or what the source is. You can agree with them, or disagree with them. I still think, by and large, their perspective is good and valuable.
Bob
My questions are as follows:
If I purchase a Forester without the tweeter kit, could I get after market tweeters to put in myself that will fit? If I can, how difficult would they be to install? do I have to remove the whole door panel or just the grills?
Or, should I get the tweeter kit as part of the deal and let the dealer install them when they arrive?
By the way, these Foresters don't have the armrest extension either. Should I have the dealer order one? Does anyone have any experiences with aftermarket armrests which they could recommend?
Thanks in advance for any input,
Skip
http://www.husco.com/products.html
Has anyone tried it? Is it better than the Subaru factory armrest?
Thanks,
Skip
...I would like some guidence... When I pick it up, what exactly should I check on the new vehicle while still on the dealer's lot? ...And what should I watch for in the week or two thereafter? thanks, Beth<<
Beth,
Every dealer has a checklist they go through to try to make sure that your new vehicle is in perfect shape. First impressions are important, so they certainly don't want you to find anything wrong the first day. They'll wash it and should fill the tank with gas and when they hand you the key, it should be in the most perfect shape it ever will be. That being said, it doesn't hurt to take a walk around before you drive it off and just see if you spot anything you don't think looks, sounds, or feels right. Once I picked up a brand new car I had ordered (not a Subaru) and the hatch in back was miss-aligned. My salesman grabbed the nearest mechanic and they straightened it out on the spot. Open and close all the doors, trunk, hood, to make sure they operate correctly. Make sure the seats, mirrors, steering column etc. adjust properly.
As for the first few weeks, of course you'll want to let the dealer know if anything goes wrong or doesn't seem right. Also make sure the dealer explains the break in period to you. With a brand new car, you have to take it easy the first 1000 miles, no revving the engine over 4000 rpm, no petal to the metal acceleration. This will help your engine down the road. If you forget to ask, it's explained in the owners manual. Treat it like a baby at first, then when you've had it a couple weeks and have it broken in, and are used to driving it, you can let loose if you want to.
Good luck, have fun, and enjoy your first new car. I'm sure you'll love it!
Dave
Good luck with the new Forester!
Soober