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Comments
Bob
-mike
The beauty of this forum is that everyone's good to point out interesting stuff in the mags they read (which between Colin, Bob, and juice is just about everything!). Thanks again everyone.
..Mike
..Mike
-Frank P.
paisan: nothing if you're talking about the hot-rodded Caprice SS that was made towards the end of its life cycle. Well, except no manual tranny.
But Motor Trend have the COTY award to a wheezy, underpowered V8 with rear fender skirts and the ugly C-pillar design that looked like (and pretty much drove like) a whale.
-juice
-mike
Bob
http://www.whatcar.com/
Now, if I canceled all my subscriptions, I could afford a new WRX.
Bob
Bob: 247hp sounds good! Hope they don't water it down for the US. Price is too high, but all prices in the UK are high.
No wheel arch extensions on the wagon? Boo-hoo! C'mon, guys?
Not sure I like the round vents, but the aluminum surrounds would by stylish (as long as they don't look fake like the Celica and Tiburon).
-juice
Bob
Same here. I'm starting to like the way it looks, especially that middle photo. My guess is that it would look even better in real life since the headlights have that "cluster" look. That probably would de-emphasize the roundness a bit.
Ken
It would be real interesting to see the new Impreza next to the out-going model in the same photo. Then a fairly accurate comparison could be made. Until you see them together there's no way you can compare the size of the two vehicles, the various shapes, and all the other subtle details. I think most people will be pleasantly surprised.
Bob
-juicer
Frank
http://www.competitionpress.com/special/special.mv
They basically say that the H-6 OBs are too expensive for a Subaru and that it's performance isn't leaps and bounds better than the H-4. The article mentions that the GT might get the turbo H-4 instead.
There's also an interesting side note that Subaru plans to phase in VTD AWD in their other performance-oriented vehicles. The next one to get it -- Impreza Turbo.
ash
See guys? Didn't I tell you they would discount the H6s? That price is at least about a grand under MSRP, before the first one even arrives!
Don't you think they'll discount the VDC even more? At least a grand or two to begin with. At just under $30k, it represents a value. Noone can match those features for the price.
8.5s to 60mph isn't great, but let's hope that's a conservative estimate. Let's see what the car mags can do. According to the Job 1 date, the first few have rolled off the production line, so that should be very soon.
GT turbo would be schweet.
-juice
We somewhat covered VTD before, but Ken's AutoWeek article got me thinking about it again. Anyone encountered a picture of a planetary gear center differential? I'm still not sure quite how this hole VTD system works (I've read the Subaru press release). Thanks in advance; my search capability is restricted by this bandwidth-challenged pipe (28.8) my in-laws have (I'm visiting them in Hingham, MA).
..Mike
..Mike
Though I like the word "viscous" a lot too, and you give that up.
-juice
Invoice - 29,334
Greenlight.com - 30,827
Frank
That's the price at the outset, though. I bet within a month it'll drop under 30k, and within the year it'll be selling for invoice.
-juice
-juice
PS That's right, the H6 is, what, 200 lbs heavier?
By the way, anybody try to access SOJ's web site this am? I couldn't get on. Either it's too busy, or they're updating it (with new Impreza info?).
Bob
I have seen the insides of a planetary gearbox before, a Lenco.
Here's a picture of one I could find real quick-- it's actually an electric screwdriver.
http://www.howstuffworks.com/inside-sd2.htm
(I formerly have been embedding images in html-- edmunds says that's a no-no unless I own the image so there you have it.)
Just imagine several of those gearsets for the ratios you want to attain and there you have it.
-Colin
Bob
http://www.subaru.com.au/newimpreza
http://www.subaru.co.nz/scrap_frameset.html?jumpto=promo
They need a 5 speed.
I think it looks very european.
Though Autoweek hit 60 in 8.7 in a GT, imagine what that could do with a turbo?
Thanks for the links. Scroll down the 2nd one and check out that beautiful yellow STi V6 wagon. Why oh why didn't they sell those here?
-juice
SOJ's website on the New Impreza is up and running!
http://www.subaru.co.jp/impreza/
Maybe their site is being overwhelmed by Subie enthusiasts around the world!
Ken
Have you been able to translate any of the info? Specificly, does the new Impreza have a multi-link rear suspension, or an improved version of the old suspension? There's been some discussion as to which rear suspension will be used on the new model.
Bob
There are three engines, 1.5L SOHC N/A, 2.0L DOHC N/A and a 2.0 DOHC Turbo. The turbo specs are:
Power: 250ps@6000RPM
Torque: 34kg-m@3600RPM
Fuel economy: 11.8km/l
I'll post more info once I can get through.
Ken
Availability: November 1, 2000.
Price: VDC -- $45495. (CDN)
Bean - $41495. (CDN)
Both prices include freight.
Prices are NON-NEGOTIABLE due to the limited number available.
The dealer said that only 17000 H6s were being made this year (this can't be right??) and that Canada wasn't getting it's usual percentage allocation because Subaru was targetting the US market.
Given that Canada is a natural market for Subaru, this strikes me as extremely dumb. Limited production, and pricing that puts it in the realm of Volvos, MB, and Lexus RX300 for the VDC.
I just don't think Subaru is going to be able to pull it off here. The typical potential Subaru customer who is more price conscious is going to go for the fully loaded domestic SUVs or the slightly smaller cute-utes, whereas those who have the bucks are then going to migrate to the more "prestigious" brands.
I hope not, but that's my take for now. The H6 didn't blow away the reviewer noted a few posts back, but maybe it will impress me more when I take it out.
Randy
Major question (basic question).....
What was Subaru going after with the VDC?
Two parts to answer the way I see it.....
1) Give people like me (current OB Ltd. owner) a step up.
2) Lure in people from other premium brands. Volvo, Lexus, BMW, Acura and so on.
The answers as I see them and
Where they messed up (In my opnion):
1) Partial success (more so with the LL Bean). When the VDC drops to $30k or below with all the options that I would want it becomes a nice (very nice??) value. So they are not gonna lose any owners for sure and may get some to step up to the LL Bean. What they could have done to fix this?....This one is easy!!!! Simply make the H6 a $1500-2000 option on ANY OB model even with the 5spd. Forget all that other stuff, give the hard-core what they want. Even at the upper end $2000....watch they FLY out of showrooms. I mean FLY!!!! I think they blew it here. Dont have to go premium here at all. Just make the faithfull happy. I realize production is an issue at first but hey I would have been on that GT H6 5spd wait list before you could say VDC.
2) Failure to go premium? There is no catch to the VDC other than the VDC system. All Subarus have AWD so whats new??? I think to lure other "premium" brand shoppers you need somthing to bring them in to look. I dont think just the H6 or the fancy stereo is gonna do it. Nearly all premium brands have T5s or 6s AND fancy sound systems. What could they have done to fix this and bring people in???? This one is more difficult:
-Some crazy warranty. Bumper to bumper 6/60 with all routine maintainance covered.
-250/6spd for $35k. I'm not kidding.
-I'm sure you guys can think of loads more.
As its stands if feels like the VDC was a poor attempt at going upscale. Some current Sube owners may opt for it but I doubt its gonna bring hoards of people over to the Subaru brand.
Other weird things missing:
Where are the HID lamps? Even as an option. If the GMC Envoy I drove yesterday can have them for $34k why not in the Subaru?
Where is the NAV system? Even as an option. Most of the other guy have them.
If you are gonna go premium....GO PREMIUM. If you want to keep the faithfull happy.....give them the H6 as an option in any OB or GT model. I think they balked. I dont like that.
Mainly, I just dont understand what Subaru was thinking.
You guys up north should fly down, buy one here, and drive back. You'll probably save money!
There's more to the VDC than you imply, though. Like a rear drive bias (45/55 front/rear) and full traction control and stability control.
Yes, it's *close* to the premium brand territory, but just about every feature is standard, while those charge extra for metallic paint, moonroof, sport package, real leather, heated seats, etc. Sometimes several thousand more.
Good point about the H6 availability, but it probably will trickle into other models, and it makes sense to offer it on the highest priced ones first.
Subaru's warranty is already on par with the premium makes, and a cut above the standard Honda/Toyota warranties.
250hp and 6 speed for $35k sounds good. S4 killer, please! The GT turbo will probably take on that mission.
My guess is the xenon lamps and fancy nav systems will appear on the VDC when the regular Outback gets the H6.
They'll get there, they're just being cautious and taking it slow. I still believe the H6 demand will greatly outstrip supply.
-juice
250PS (pferdestaerk = german for horsepower, metric) = 247 HP
34kg-m = 245 lb-ft
11.8km/l = 27.7 MPG
-Colin
By taking it slow rather than shocking the world I think they are shooting themselves in the foot. I guess we'll see. I still have not driven the VDC yet....it could be awesome. It better be for $6000 more than my Ltd. Ofcourse the evolution rather than revolution course has worked for Subaru in the past, but I think the upscale players have a different set of rules.
Oh, and a higher rear roll center is not good. Perhaps something happened in the translation?
The gear ratios look good, especially the turbo. Definitely only 5spd, so bummer for those expecting a 6spd.
-Colin
No multi-link in back? That means tight cargo space again. At least they'll have wagons, but not WRX wagons? Please offer them here, for once it would be nice to have something the JDM does not.
Sport-shift sounds good, too, but I'll stick with the stick.
Higher roll center means a higher center of gravity, but the turbo has less ground clearance, so that has to be wrong.
On the VDC, I meant close in price range. The prices probably will not overlap.
I haven't driven one yet so I can't say how it compares. But most stripped, low-end luxo alternatives compare more closely to the LL Bean, and actually still tend to have fewer options.
The LS400 was a break-through, but value pricing is the norm, so we're not likely to see that again. The Acura TL came close, but it's FWD. And MDX prices will break 40k easy.
As for conquest Saab and Volvo sales, that wouldn't be very wise, because there is little volume there. They're better off going after ex-Camry or Accord owners looking to move up into something with more character.
-juice
Colin -- you were right about weight. My previous numbers were GVW NOT curb weight. The curb weights are:
(kg)
1370 Turbo AT
1340 Turbo MT
1310 NA AT
1290 NA MT
Ken
Also, I should note that VW is not standing still...they will be offering an eight cylinder 4-mo passat in 2001. So what market is Subaru after exactly with the VDC?
Bill
Bob
What's new for the 2001 Legacy anyways? Subaru Canada seems to have their 2001 website up and ready. The only thing missing? 2001 data. They don't even have anything about the H-6 in the Outback.
Jeff
I think it all comes down to what they decide to charge for the next-gen Forester. The reason why Subaru didn't go with the multi-link in the Impreza is that they couldn't justify the cost. I agree, it makes more sense in the Forester.
Let's see...
Oh shoot, my memory was incorrect. Guess I better forget about landing that job as a chassis designer or racecar engineer.
Raising the roll center of a car will decrease the roll angle. The less the chassis rolls, the better. It will natively support more lateral grip and also the tires tend to stay in better contact with the road and properly weighted.
(Puhn, How to Make Your Car Handle)
-Colin
-mike
..Mike
..Mike
If they want to keep the H6 exclusive for a few years they would have been better off shooting at the XC, 9-5, and A6. This is a smaller market so.......In that case I expected a lot more out of it and thats why I was dissappointed. I would have rather seen it come in at $35k and have everything they have + the Subaru AWD/VDC.
-Colin
I plan to test drive both new H6's. I then plan to test drive the current 2001 Limited model without the H6 and decide if the new models are worth the extra $50-$100/month. If I knew more about cars, it would probably come down to more sophisticated and technical thinking. But as it stands in will mainly be in the feel of the test drive, seller/dealer negotiation and what my wife and I (o.k. - her) decides is best.
Bottom line: You are either in the market to buy a new car or you are not. If you are in the market, you will consider the $30k Subaru's right along side the other cars in your price range. Then it all comes down to "the moment" and what "feels right". In my case, it will probably be an H6 Subaru. Audi just doesn't have me yet.
-Leif