Subaru Crew - Future Models II

ateixeira · July 2003

My theory is that Subaru is understating the power the XT actually makes. This is common.

Neon SRT-4 owner are going to the dyno and finding 230 *net* horsepower at the wheels. It's supposed to be making 215hp gross!

-juice

sweet_subie · July 2003

i too seem to agree, if you read that C&D article....0-60 in 5.3 secs ?

himiler · July 2003

Only 0.3 seconds behind the Cayenne Turbo in both 0-60 and 1/4-mile!

Can you say "sleeper"?

sweet_subie · July 2003

No, it is Mitsubishi made Turbo charger......i have read this elsewhere as well.

see last page of the same article.

ateixeira · July 2003

A simple chip upgrade would easily make up those 3 tenths, LOL.

Seriously, though, their Passat 1.8T went from 8 seconds or so to 6.9 seconds in 0-60 with a chip alone. In fact, the place that does it is right here in Fairfax, VA! $400.

I think you get diminishing returns, but a Forester might break into the 4s with a chip.

-juice

kens · July 2003

The Forester XT uses the same Mitsubishi turbo unit as the WRX.

Ken

qbrozen · July 2003

Are you SURE its the same unit?? Seems to me it would be a smaller unit since it doesn't need as much boost. Sure, it COULD be the same and just dial down the boost, but that's a large fin (correct term?) to be pushing around when off boost. Doesn't a smaller turbo give less drag and, therefore, less lag, which is where the tradeoff of lower boost comes in to play? Or do I have this all wrong?

ateixeira · July 2003

I read it was smaller. Maybe the same manufacturer, but not the same turbo. The IC is also lower capacity, or so I've heard.

-juice

rsholland · July 2003

FitzMall, White Flint, today on my way back from Bethesda. On their back lot, which is around the corner, they have a bunch of '04 Outbacks and one 35th Anniversary Legacy there. A few comments:

* There's a new color: Champaign Gold, which looks more like silver than gold. In any case, it's a nice looking color.

* In addition to the silver badging, the Outbacks have slightly different wheels.

* LL Bean model now has a "Bean Badge" on the rear hatch (but now AWD badge!? on rear hatch). It's the same one found on the front fenders.

* Besides the Bean, I saw: VDC sedan, H-6 sedan, a bunch of Outback Limited & several Outback wagons, as well as a 35th... Legacy sedan.

Bob

ateixeira · July 2003

I'll be there later today, actually. I'll check out the '04 35AE and the new color.

-juice

kens · July 2003

Really? I read somewhere (probably NASIOC) that the XT uses the same unit as the WRX, just that it's set to lower boost levels.

Hmmm.

Ken

miksmi · July 2003

John/himiler, thanks. If anyone has a link to said article, please post it.

sweet_subie, I may have to do that.

..Mike

sweet_subie · July 2003

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6220&sid=18- 1&n=157

ateixeira · July 2003

They also prefer the Forester with the turbo. Autoweek did too.

They estimate Baja turbo prices at $26,500, that would kill it right then and there. Baja sales are still slow and that would put them out of reach of many buyers, so it wouldn't help much.

I spoke to my salesman buddy yesterday, and he said dealers would not get turbos until regular Bajas sold, and they were having a heck of a time getting them sold, even with incentives. He went as far as saying that he wasn't sure they'd even GET a Baja turbo.

-juice

rsholland · July 2003

http://www.media.subaru.com/

rsholland · July 2003

245/45x18 tires standard! Titanium twin-scroll turbo standard! Automatic & other models to be introduced later.

http://www.subaru.co.nz/

Bob

subearu · July 2003

I like that tag line "Titanium. It makes Steel look like the soft option."

-Brian

rsholland · July 2003

http://www.evo.co.uk/

ateixeira · July 2003

18s? Wow, we don't even get 17s yet.

-juice

paisan · July 2003

Not sure what designation the XT and the WRX get, but don't forget with a 2.5 you need a larger turbo to get the same CFms, so if you put a WRX turbo on say a 2.5 in the Forester, it won't build as much PSi cause the 2.5 can suck down more air. Hmm wonder if I explained my reasoning properly...

-mike

subewannabe · July 2003

Whats the deal??? Its not out fault we have environmental issues! Why cant we have it nexT???Huh? Huh?
    Peak torque at 2500 rpms! Holy neck sprain , Batman!
    Ive heard that skiing in August is pretty trendy in New Zealand. Now I have a great excuse to go....although I suspect the Subaru dealer in Aukland might suspect Im not a serious buyer when I show up wanting a test drive. Plus, I'd have to learn to ski, first. The fake cast on the fake broken leg is cool at the apre`ski lodge, but not on the test drive.
    Im already rationalizing that since they wont be able to get that sexy thang past EPA emissions tests, the 2.5 turbo for us will be a much tamer animal. Tell me Im right guys...I need something to cling to !
Mark

hypov · July 2003

Don't know if Forester is plumbed with the same.

-Dave

ateixeira · July 2003

I'd have to learn to ski, first

LOL!

I drive my wife crazy some times. We'll be on vacation in San Fran, and she'll say "look, it's Coit Tower", and I'll say, "yeah, right next to that Ferrari Modena".

When you're a car nut, you never stop thinking about them. Even on vacation, in another country.

-juice

wheelz4 · July 2003

Still haven't seen the AutoExpress pic mentioned awhile back.....AutoExpress issues on our newstands here jumped from a May issue to a "summer special" issue that evidently was a few weeks (or maybe a month) earlier than the issue with the pic we're all seeking. MagX out of Japan is still in "June" mode, so maybe the July issue will have something. Anybody have any British car friends who could scan and send you a pic? Anybody know of any British Subaru car forums or clubs?
While the 7 passenger Soob would be my ultimate Soob, I'm sure it'll be priced well into Pacifica territory here in Canada which means mid 40's before taxes and well over 50 including taxes etc.
I'd be even more interested in an Impreza-based tall wagon or mini-minivan (like the Honda Stream, Mitsubishi Grandis, Toyota Wish, VW Touran etc) which would combine the Forester's off-road ruggedness in, say, a 6 passenger format.
Yeah, I know, they have the rebadged Zafira...the Traviq.....all I would keep from that is the Flex-7 seating but I'd want a Subaru drivetrain and some more imaginative styling...an "Outbacked" mini-minivan, if you will.

ateixeira · July 2003

Those people movers are a tough sell in the US. Remember the Colt Vista? The Expo LRV? The Nissan Axxes? Civic wagovan?

SUVs just sell better, and bring more profit.

-juice

lark6 · July 2003

Nice evo review, Bob. Interesting how they compare the styling to one of my current favorites, the Alfa 156. Is this issue on newsstands now? I may have to make a side trip to Borders on the way home this evening.

Ed

wheelz4 · July 2003

Wagons were a tough sell too until Subaru "Outbacked" one. The early people movers were rather clumsy looking, were set up like cars on the inside (as opposed to minivans) and were overpriced compared to regular minivans of that time. Just read about a new Nissan concept to be shown at Frankfurt which has an updated version of Nissan's excellent all-mode-awd system in a vehicle combining the best traits of SUV's and people movers. With great styling, value and execution, I have no doubt that these types of vehicles could be a hit this time around.

ateixeira · July 2003

I think the key is they have to look like SUVs, not wagons or minivans, to really thrive.

I'm not sure if an Outbacked van is enough, look at the failed Mazda MPV AllSport, or whatever it was called.

As successful as the Outback is, Ford sells 10 times as many Explorers (something like that).

Give us a Grand Forester Plus. Make it a lot longer, though, maybe 12" longer wheelbase, longer than the Legacy even. Put in that 3rd row. Give it a two-box design, no minivan-like angled front.

Then make the 247hp H6 standard. Then offer a Sport package with a low range and real skid plates, plus 10" of clearance (8" on the standard model). 16" rims to keep prices reasonable, $29.9k MSRP for that model, $1k leather and moonroof a la carte options.

I can't wait.

-juice

wheelz4 · July 2003

.......sounds good, Juice.
BTW, that Nissan I mentioned is alot more SUV-like than van-like, if this illustration is any indication:
http://www.autoweek.nl/newsdisp.php?cache=no&ID=1703

ateixeira · July 2003

Didn't I see that truck in the movie Judge Dredd? ;-)

But if they tone it down, it could look good. I see hints of Murano and Titan in it.

-juice

rsholland · July 2003

This time from Australia. It mentions the MDX and RX330 as inspirations, so my guess is it will be about the size of those two.

It also mentions a 3.7L boxer. If you add two cylinders to the 2.5L H4, you end up with a 3.7L H6.

http://sydney.citysearch.com.au/profile?id=29497

It sounds like it will be built in Indiana, which is no surprise since Isuzu will soon be leaving there. There may also be a RHD model for Australia.

Bob

rsholland · July 2003

Those who want to get a peek at the turbo Baja's Black-on-Charcoal Gray color scheme can now find it on '04 LLBeans. I'm assuming the H6 VDC also gets those colors too. As on the Baja, this new color combo looks great!

I also saw a white LL Bean with very light gold cladding. Just as the Black/Charcoal Gray almost looks monochromatic, so did this white/light gold. '04 white H4 Outbacks still have the darker gold cladding, BTW.

Bob

rsholland · July 2003

'04 Outback specs + new upgrades highlighted!

http://www.cars101.com/subaru/outback/outback2004.html#new

'04 Outback pixs with the new colors I mentioned in the above post!

http://www.cars101.com/subaru/outback/outback2004photos.html

Bob

miksmi · July 2003

sweet_subie · July 2003

Your thoughts ? I don't think it is ugly at all. It is very practical & better looking than CRV. CRV looks to me that it can overturn anytime !

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2003-07-24-for- - ester_x.htm

lark6 · July 2003

Odd that he reports turbo lag given the others' comparisons to the WRX. One also has to wonder how he considers the WRX and STi hood scoops if this one is "big and ugly."

Other than that it's the level of superficial coverage I've come to expect from USAToday. If it can't be summed up in a neat little factoid or pie chart to be discussed at the breakfast nook in the Holiday Inn Express, it doesn't go in that paper. I'd hope anyone who's seriously car shopping gets their opinions from multiple sources. Even CR and Motor Trend are more useful.

Sorry to be so blunt.

Ed

rsholland · July 2003

All the new '04 Outbacks have different wheels, but looking at those photos I noticed:

 All H-4 Outbacks have the wheel identified as the "Limited" wheel on the Joe Spitz site.

 LL Beans have a different wheel, as indicated in the photo.

 Finally, it looks like the VDC has yet another different wheel (6 spokes), as indicated by the VDC sedan photo.

Seems like a lot of (new) wheel options for a model in it's last year, and a short model year at that...

Bob

lark6 · July 2003

Bob: Maybe it's SoA's way of clearing out inventory, or a stab at generating a little interest in the final year of the run? Limited wheel looks like older LLB/VDC wheel sans gold paint.

Ed

rsholland · July 2003

looking at the color chart, the LL Bean gets the most color choices. 7 IIRC. The Bean also gets several monotones this year, more than other Outbacks. I bet they really expect the Bean to be a big seller, since it's being offered more color choices than the other models.

Ed, as to the wheels, could be?? Although I don't recall seeing these wheels before. They look "new" to me; I could be wrong on that though...

Bob

dcm61 · July 2003

Stopped at the local dealer this afternoon and saw a base H4 OBW and 35th anniv. edition H6 OBW (same as '03 H6 cloth seat model). The H4 OBW had the same wheels as the base '00 to '03 models. The 35th anniv H6 had what I guess you would call 12 spoke wheels but the spokes are kinda filled in near the hub (I personally don't like them). Edit: The 35th anniv. H6 had the same wheels as pictured on the '04 VDC on Joe Spitz's webpage. I believe the '04 LL Bean wheels are the same as the '03 Baja.

The only difference between an '03 base OBW and '04 base OBW is a slightly different shade of plood, chrome vs. gold badging and black letter vs. white letter rear splash guards.

For some reason, the new chrome badging (instead of gold) seems out of place on the OB. It seems to clash with the titanium cladding and bumpers. I guess it's something one has to get used to after 8 years of gold badged Outbacks.

Also both of the '04 OB wagons (base H4 & base H6) had Titanium cladding/bumpers, not the Warm Gray Opal as spec'd on Joe's webpage.

DaveM

njswamplands · July 2003

is that guy kidding? i never drove a turbo before that had behaved like a supercharger. the power is delivered right now. this guy must be thinking of an audi 1.8t?

ateixeira · July 2003

Cool Bob, MDX is about the perfect size for us. I don't want a hulking vehicle, so even a small 3rd row is fine for us.

3.7l eh? I'd be fine with a 3.0l if it got the rumored 247hp. Well beyond 200kw, someone translate?

2004 updates include new fake wood. But the plood does look less fake, LOL. The base H6 gets a name (35th). I think that LL Bean is just right, that's as good as this generation Outback will get - no two-tone wheels, black/gray, I like it.

I do not like the new VDC rims. They really are putting the emphasis on the LL Bean model.

USAT Review: I'm sure he drove an auto. Drive a 5 speed and decide for yourself. 0-30 is quicker than a Ferrari Enzo, is that too much lag for you? :-)

-juice

njswamplands · July 2003

is that guy kidding? i never drove a turbo before that had behaved like a supercharger. the power is delivered right now. this guy must be thinking of an audi 1.8t?

armac13 · July 2003

200kw = 268 hp

Ross

ateixeira · July 2003

Uh-oh, now I'm worried about price.

You don't need that kind of power in a 7 seater family vehicle. Watch, it'll require premium fuel and get 17mpg city.

I'd be quite happy if they could get the H6 to run on regular, even if it kept the 212hp it has now.

Just give me a 5 speed auto and/or Sport Shift.

-juice

miksmi · July 2003

Watch, it'll require premium fuel and get 17mpg city.

Isn't sub-20mpg inevitable with a heavier 7-pax vechicle? Even using the existing H6 3.0l I doubt it'd make 20mpg city, though that'd be nice. Fuel efficiency is a good thing and FHI has great engineers but it seems AWD drags down the city numbers.

..Mike

ateixeira · July 2003

Up until recently, just about every Subie managed 20mpg city. The H6 models do (tall gearing I guess).

That kind of power may be overkill for a family hauler without sporting intentions. It'll cost more to buy and operate.

They'll probably register it as a truck to circumvent any CAFE concerns.

Bottom line? I hope they target the Pilot/Highlander instead of the MDX/RX330. It's more in my price range, costs less, and might run on regular fuel.

I'm sure I'm wrong, they'll go whole-hog after the MDX, watch.

-juice

rsholland · July 2003

may(?) not need premium, since it will less stressed than a 3.0 putting out ~ 250 HP.

Bob

ateixeira · July 2003

Could be.

It's funny, the XT comes out with dreamy performance and people complain that it's too fast and could be geared taller and tuned to run on regular fuel.

All I know is that my wife and I are pretty set on a larger vehicle, and we're both hoping that new SUW fits the bill. But if Subaru puts out a $38k MDX clone, I'll be shopping for a 2005 Legacy wagon instead.

-juice

rsholland · July 2003

There will be a Forester X-like trim level, with silver steel wheels. I agree, Subaru had better not price this as an MDX. If they do, it could be a hard sell.

Bob

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