Subaru Crew - Future Models II

ateixeira · July 2003

Look at it from a few differnet points of view:

* A Forester X costs only about $2-3 grand more than a TS wagon and has lots more equipment

* Apply the same logic starting with the 35th Ann. Outback H6 and you have a screaming bargain

* Apply the same logic starting with a VDC and prepare for Baja-like sales

Fitzmall had a cloth H6 Outback for $23.5k the other day. I would pay the $25.5k or so for the SUW in a second. My wife would not even fight that.

If not, the Legacy will get slightly bigger and I'm sure I'd be happy in one of those, but we would be compromising on space.

-juice

ateixeira · July 2003

Bob: I don't think they'll put steel wheels on this vehicle (not that I'd mind), when even the L/SE has alloys standard.

-juice

rsholland · July 2003

there is a strong market for a back-to-basics type of SUV. A perfect example is the Nissan Xterra. It is hugely successful because it is marketed as a vehicle with everything you need, and nothing you don't.

I'm hoping Subaru will offer a trim level with that in mind. Steel wheels add to that back-to-basic feeling. Also, steel wheeled Libertys (and Cherokees) are very popular too.

Bob

rsholland · July 2003

There were 3 Pathfinders on the lot. There must have been 10 or so Muranos on the lot. There must have been 30 or so Xterras on the lot.

Nissan has hit one out the ballpark with the Xterra. I hope Subaru is keeping an eye on them.

Bob

tincup47 · July 2003

Nissan Xterra sales 24,943 YTD (Through May) that is down almost 9,000 units YTD from last year. Hardly a home run from a business standpoint. The Murano sales are 20,471. Nissan makes a lot more profit from a vehicle like the Murano than they do with an Xterra.
In my personal opinion the Xterra would be far down on my list of vehicles to purchase. I'd purchase any Subaru (and plenty of other vehicles)before I'd consider it.

ateixeira · July 2003

everything you need, and nothing you don't

You watch too much TV, Bob! You've memorized the jingle!

XTerra offers a low price and a V6. Plus it has trendy style. That was enough to overcome wheezy performance and 80's pickup refinement levels.

But...I'm not sure that's what I want from Subaru. XTerra's ride is terrible, that alone would keep me away from it.

How can Subaru keep costs down? First, I hope they don't pitch it as a luxury SUV/SUW/crossover whatever. Leather only if it's optional. I'll even sacrifice a moonroof on that big guy. Skip the fancy MacIntosh stuff. Equip it like the cloth/H6 Outback, with maybe an LL Bean-level upscale model as a step up with that 3.7l engine.

Better yet, have an L model with unpainted cladding and steelies as a step down from the volume model in the middle. 3.0l H6, real back-to-basics.

I'll stop short of asking for a hose-out interior with vinyl carpets, LOL.

-juice

kens · July 2003

Bob,

What do you define as a back-to-basics SUV? What market segment would need them?

I don't think a majority of SUV buyers are looking for body-on-frame trucks with leaf suspensions and a "true" 4WD system. The Nissan Xterra was a hit when it first came out, but it was targeted toward a young market segment and it was right at the boom of SUVs.

Since then, everything I've seen has been headed away from that -- even with the "youth" market (boy, do I feel old saying that!).

Ken

tincup47 · July 2003

The Honda Element has been outselling the Xterra (at least through May) 28,931 to 24,943. In spite of it's looks (at least to me) it seems to be more of the back to basics vehicle that some consumers want. Vehicles with more bells and whistles will still outsell plain jane versions. Hate to see how many Honda would have sold if it were better looking.

himiler · July 2003

They should've called it the "Elephant" -- it's big, slow, grey, and carries a ton of stuff.

rsholland · July 2003

but everywhere I drive I see lots of Xterras, and far more than I see Muranos. My seat-of-the-pants calculator says it's a homerun. In fact, Toyota has been so impressed, that they will be offering a vehicle to go head-to-head with it shortly.

It's not perfect, and I never said that it was; but it has definitely struck a nerve with a lot of customers.

Back-to-basics? No leather, relatively simple (compared to what's out there), rugged, etc. It's going after the Liberty market, not the Grand Cherokee market.

Maybe this discussion should move to the cafe...

Bob

tincup47 · July 2003

Of course you would see more Xterras, they've been on sale for four years now at about 40-60,000
vehicles per year. Murano has been on sale for less than a year. Murano sales so far this year are almost as high as the Xterras. The downward trend in the Xterra is the thing that catches my eye though. 9,000 units YTD is a big hit on this vehicle. Toyota is saturating the market and trying to get into the top 3 manufacturers in the US. Many niche marketers are going to be in trouble if they continue to broaden their product line.

rsholland · July 2003

lark6 · July 2003

It was originally on my short list of vehicles when I was shopping in fall 1999. (So was the Chevy Silverado but that's a story for another day.) I visited a local Nissan dealer to look at the Xterra as well as the Frontier crew cab. The salesman immediately told me I was too old to be looking at the Xterra and tried steering me to the Pathfinder. I was 36 at the time; I hadn't told the salesman my age but the male pattern baldness must have been a clue. Didn't he know many twentysomethings wear caps to cover their receding hairlines? Scratch one potential customer.

Hindsight being 20:20 I'm glad I didn't buy one. A coworker of mine did and I had the chance to ride and drive. I like the back-to-basics concept - not even bothered by the truckiness - but the seating position and ergonomics were awful.

I ended up in the Forester; except for hauling really big or heavy loads it does everything I thought I'd need a truck or truck-based SUV to do. In addition it handles far and away better than anything in its class, scratching an itch I didn't think I had. While there's a little part of me that still wants a pickup, a sporty AWD wagon has turned out to be pretty close to ideal in suiting my wants and needs.

tincup: Toyota is saturating the market but their vehicles are even more soulless than Hondas. What do they make now, like 5 SUVs? (RAV4, Highlander, 4Runner, Sequoia, original recipe Land Cruiser, not counting Lexus badge engineered siblings) Further, they do not make a sportswagon on a par with the Europeans and/or the next-gen Legacy. Despite its looks and movie title name the Matrix doesn't fit the bill; the full Impreza wagon line outshines it IMO.

Ed

ateixeira · July 2003

Element has a low price and it's a Honda, they could sell a pet rock with wheels.

Customers are demanding car-like SUVs, so it would be risky to try to sell a big truck that seats 7. I don't think Subaru should try that.

Look at what happened to Isuzu. You really think GM will let them build the same type of trucks?

-juice

sweet_subie · July 2003

won't subaru jeapordise its anti-suv image by introducing a full scale SUV ?

I think it will not be a typical SUV, something will be quirky about it

ateixeira · July 2003

Well, they are trying to move away from that label (quirky).

-juice

sweet_subie · July 2003

won't subaru jeapordise its anti-suv image by introducing a full scale SUV ?

I think it will not be a typical SUV, something will be quirky about it

ateixeira · July 2003

Baja is already a truck, so they broke that pledge, if you can call it that.

They did that because they were already on the very edge of CAFE limits. They didn't realize Baja sales volume would be so low.

I'm sure the 7 passenger vehicle will be certified as a truck, too.

-juice

sweet_subie · July 2003

But clearly, Baja is a car-based truck & that's how it has been marketed, no ?

ateixeira · July 2003

Marketed that way, yes. But the feds call it a truck, and with that come a whole bunch of exemptions.

Good example: Baja does not meet car standards because the windows are tinted dark.

It meets most car standard, but not all.

The CAFE issue I mentioned is the other thing. Subaru as a fleet average 27.5mpg, and adding more H6 models and turbo Foresters will force them to use past credits. So would Baja, but again they use the CAFE loophole since it's a truck.

This is clearly a case of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em". Everyone else was exploiting these loopholes and so Subaru now does too. But they can't cling on to that image of selling cars only.

-juice

rsholland · July 2003

The Baja is classified as a truck because of the deep tinted windows.

Bob

ateixeira · July 2003

Heck, now that they've caved in to the pressures, I think the Forester and the 7 passenger vehicle should be registered as trucks too.

I'd like factory tint on those vehicles. Plus it gives them a lot of freedom on the powertrains, since the CAFE minimum plunges to 20.7mpg for trucks.

I'm not saying I want a gas guzzler, just that it opens up plenty of options for them. Depends on whether you want to look at them as efficient trucks, or not-so-efficient cars.

-juice

kens · July 2003

Yes, give me tinted windows standard on the Forester!!

Ken

rsholland · July 2003

I was just comparing the '04 VDC wheels (see Joe Spitz site) with those of the Baja turbo (see teaser Baja turbo brochure handed out at car shows). They're the same!

Bob

ateixeira · July 2003

Good catch, Bob. I just looked in my brochure.

It's funny, but for some reason I thought the wheels look better on the Baja.

-juice

dcm61 · July 2003

- Base OB has the current wheels ('00 to '03)

- 35th anniv H6 and VDC have Baja Turbo wheels

- LL Bean has non-turbo Baja wheels

- Apparently the OB Limited gets the current H6 wheels but without the gold accents.

DaveM

ateixeira · July 2003

Confused? I am. ;-)

-juice

rsholland · July 2003

H4 Outback wheels are different too.

Bob

babaoriley · July 2003

What will the new name be for crossover vehicles? The FX44/35, Murano, Pacifica and even Forester I don't consider SUVs.

Can Subaru capitalize by being the first to create a name for this new segment?

-Brett

ateixeira · July 2003

B9? B11/Ute? Who knows. How 'bout Grand Forester?

-juice

dcm61 · July 2003

Where did you see that H4 Outback wheels are different? I saw a '04 H4 base OBW at the dealer and it has the same wheels as my '03 H4 base OBW. It appears that the '04 H4 OB Limited may be getting different wheels ('03 H6 wheels w/o gold accents) but not the '04 base.

DaveM

subewannabe · July 2003

Conestoga? Percheron? (black when new...dappled gray after break-in period). hmmmm..wrong image.

Ive got a marketing idea, though, for the new Subaru: Get Lance Armstrong standing in front of the new vehicle in his yellow jersey, grinning as he says,"When five isnt enough!"

Mark

ateixeira · July 2003

hee hee :-)

Nice timing for the new spokesperson, eh?

-juice

rsholland · July 2003

I'm pretty certain that the '04 H-4 Outback wheels, besides having deleted the gold accent, have a slightly different spoke pattern.

Isn't that "Limited" wheel that Joe Spitz shows common to all H4 Outbacks?

Bob

dcm61 · July 2003

From what I can piece together, the "Limited" wheel is a new wheel for the '04 OB H4 Limited model only. Base H4 Outbacks never had gold accented wheels. The gold accents were on the H4 Limited (gold accented base wheels) and all H6 models (a gold accented version of what Joe's calling the "limited" wheel). I'm 99% positive that the '04 Base H4 OBW has the same wheels as '03. I'm getting my car inspected tomorrow at the dealer so I'll scout out some '04 models to verify.

DaveM

ateixeira · July 2003

So this is what it's like when two Encyclopedias debate something! LOL

-juice

lark6 · July 2003

Percheron describes the condition of my Forester's hood perfectly. :-(

Ed

kens · July 2003

Subaru's wheel schemes are starting to confuse me too. So much cross pollination!

Ken

sweet_subie · July 2003

how about Fuji in the SUV's name....

Fuji Heavy SUV !!!!!!!!!!!!!

rsholland · July 2003

it will be called the B-9. I think this will be the first of the "next-generation" Subarus.

Bob

rsholland · July 2003

This is a computer-generated image, but is reported to be pretty acurate.

http://www.channel4.com/apps26/4car/jsp/main.jsp?lnk=240&stor- yid=2125

Bob

jlemole · July 2003

Looks to me like they just stuck a Saab front end on an Impreza and....voila! There certainly won't be alot of ramping up costs involved in its production, so it seems like a no-brainer for GM to try and save Saab. I don't really agree with the article's speculation that Saab may lose loyal customers since this new car seems directed at a new, lower-priced audience, as opposed to the group who can afford a full-bred 9-3 or 9-5. I just hope that GM's subsequent "tuning" of the Saab-Impreza doesn't tarnish Subaru's growing reputation and the reliability of the Impreza powertrain.

Jon

lark6 · July 2003

Bob: I can see the road test headlines now: "B-9 Not Malignant..." :-p

Ed

jlemole · July 2003

robr2 · July 2003

"I don't really agree with the article's speculation that Saab may lose loyal customers..."

Many SAAB loyalists are up in arms about this. They say it's not a SAAB - it's brand engineering and it will never be a SAAB. SAAB loyalists are as loyal as Subaru loyalists. The idea of putting the SAAB name on a Trailblazer is even worse.

ateixeira · July 2003

Ed: they could have the B-9, the B-4, and then the After.

Silly name, really. Remember "Nova", in Spanish?

Saab 9-1? I thought it was going to be the 9-2? Looks decent, I'm sure they'll get the styling right. Saabs have all looked good lately.

But I find it rather hilarious that Saab loyalists are upset about this, they're already Opels to begin with. They don't have unique chassis, so why not pick a Subaru over a GM?

-juice

lark6 · July 2003

Yes, the B-4 as well. This is starting to remind me of "Bananas in Pajamas" with its B1 and B2. Graham: time to chime in! :-)

Ed

erics6 · July 2003

I agree about Saab loyalists. I think they are upset over the badge engineering and GM screw ups. It's not that it will be a rebadged Subaru, it's just that it won't be a Saab. My neighbor who owns a 9000 can't believe the direction Saab is heading. Saab loyalists don't like GM's 9-3 or 9-5.

However, Saab loyalists won't save Saab and GM knows that. They've got to find a new customer base. For example, my wife is interested in looking at the 9-2 when it comes out. She likes Saab look.

I'm sure they'll even bring in new soccer moms to the rebadged Chevy Trailblazer.

ateixeira · July 2003

Saab should get a rebadged SRX, if anything, not the TB. Ugh.

-juice

rsholland · July 2003

Dave was right. The base '04 Outback has the old wheels. It now seems that every Outback and Legacy have their own wheels. Not sure which wheel the 35th Anniversary H6 Outback has. Are they unique to that model, or are they shared with another model?

Bob

Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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