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1) The standard engine for the Legacy line should stay the 2.5 H4. $21-24k. The family hauler image of the sedan and wagon should be left intact. CAFE pusher.
2) The L should get the same engine as the WRX. $25-28k. You can get this in an auto or 5spd manual. It would be a WRX about 30% larger. Same basic engine, same basic drivetrain.
3) The GT should get the same basic engine as the STi detuned to 250-260hp. $28-32k. 6spd manual only in either sedan or wagon. Low volume halo vehicle that would push the price point and hold it. This would an STi in easy to use family form.
4) AND in my dreams they would have a GT Blitzen. 300hp. $35k.
VDC and HID standard on everything in the Legacy line. The H6 would only be for the Outback line where it would be standard and you could get it with a 6spd.
Subaru needs to show it can target Acura before it goes after Audi and Lexus. I think they can but they are going to have to low ball the prices first like with the WRX.
Besides, forget HIDs, just make good headlights to begin with. Do you really want $900 replacement costs? Maxima owners are complaining that they get stolen all the time (more than once from one owner here on Edmunds). Same with Acura TLs.
CR tested them, and found the best lights overall were on the Protege5, and yes those were mega-cheap halogens. $10 bulb replacement. Among the worst were the HID Audi TT's lights.
I do think they should focus (pun intended) on designing good lights, though. My Forester's are good. The Legacy's are not so good.
-juice
When standard as part of assembly I doubt that HID costs more than $200-300/car and VDC perhaps $500-750 all included. MSRP on the current base Legacy is $20k I think (or close) and sells for $18k. I think that both VDC and HID could be easily done standard at $21k and $22k at most. It would also include more trendy things that the Mazda 6, Altima, Accord, Camry, et al. do not provide standard.
Why should the 05 Legacy turbo be much more than $1,500-$2,000 of an increase over the current GT? That's about the price of admission for a Forester XT over the XS, right? As enthusiasts, I think we may be attaching more value to this than the general market. Subaru needs to make this move simply to remain competitive, what with 240hp Accords and 245hp Altimas. For 2003, Honda increased the Accord V6 from 200 to 240 and added other items such as dual-climate control; and I believe the price increase over 2002 was only about $500.
So I'm thinking (and hoping) a fully loaded Legacy turbo will run around $27-28, while one sans leather and some other luxury items would be around $25.
Am I crazy?
2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2017 911 C4S - 2025 BRZ - 2023 A6 Allroad - 2024 Genesis GV60 - 2019 Cayman
Legacy = lower volume (but here's hoping!), and from all that I've seen or read, the interior bits are moving way up the food chain.
It should only if its better in every way including standard features, quality, and big power. So I agree with you. If they want to go into $30-35k it should show up with 300hp.
"Subaru needs to make this move simply to remain competitive"
Which is why I dont want them to repeat the LL Bean / VDC mistake. Both were fine vehicles but there was no real reason to select them over the base version and pay the silly premium they initially asked. The problem could have been avoided by making the H6 standard from the start and having a small incremental price increase. There are are too many options to make a half-hearted effort like that. Subaru customers like value and customers from other brands will not come over to Subaru unless it really is better. My hope is they really blow us out of the water with something special like the WRX. The bar was set with the WRX at $23k. That clearly got peoples attention. People will come over to Subaru but they have to do some work to get people into the system first. The WRX worked and the Legacy could too.
I just drove my SVX for the first time in 6 weeks today. I love that car and the B11s will just be a more powerful version of that baby!
-mike
let us take of list of failures......
1. Where is that Lexus IS SportCross.....i rarely see them on the road ? Even Sedan is a failure in my opinion
2. Acura stopped making that CL.
3. Honda stopped prelude.
4. The new Infinity M45, I heard is selling for 8 to 10k below MSRP.
5. Those froggy looking Infiniti SUVs....are awefully expensive, they are NOT selling as fast as Nisssan wanted it to be.
someone add more to the list ?
If they bring the Legacy GT wagon to market under $28K, they'll have to pry the steering wheel "out of my cold, dead hands"( to quote Chuck Heston!).
Mark
1) Lexus IS SportCross. $30k price tag. $15k looks. A recipe for disaster not matter how good the driving dynamics were. I laughed out loud when one of my friends bought one.
2) Acura CL. Low volume seller. Never really caught on. I just really dont like the big power FWD format.
3) Honda Prelude. Big power and FWD. Not all that interesting as it crept up in price.
4) Infiniti M45. Not Aztek ugly but that front end looks like its from the 60s. Its just not that attractive. It will not sell until they do a complete redesign on the body. At $35k some may bite but I doubt that. It was a serious flub on their part.
5) Infiniti FX series. Um, I hate to say this but the majority of people who buy SUVs are sheep. They follow. They dont want something that looks new and "interesting". The FX45 may be a fantastic performer but its not getting to the core SUV buyer. If that was the goal it was a total failure. On the other hand, even though its really not for me, its one of the few non-wagons that I find interesting (the FX45). I'm totally shocked its done this well. Perhaps its winning over performance people. Lexus is releasing a similar version with toned down styling. Perhaps it will do better.
There are more
6) Our Mazda dealer is happy about the 6 but is really unhappy about the low number he can get with manuals. Release a sport sedan and then not make enough in manual....not that smart.
7) Mercury Maurader. Perhaps at closer to $25k. Weak performer for all the attidude. Failed.
8) The VW W8 engine in the passat. All that development time and money. Only made 275hp. Its now gone. Total failure.
9) Aztek. It did not do well enough to be called a failure. Perhaps priced below $20 to get younger "look at me" buyers. Perhaps not.
10) The new Grand Prix. Yup, it looks better BUT. No V8, no AWD, no nothing. The G8 was teaser that has nothing in common with what they released as their Grand Prix sport sedan. Its better but not enough to win anyone over who was not going to get one anyway. It will sell to rental fleets and at big discounts before long.
Certain cars are destined to fail before they hit the streets.
nematode-
I do agree that HID puts out more light; however, with the cut-offs designed into the OEMs there isn't much gain as far as visible distance. A well designed halogen lamp will perform just as good.
I have auxillary HID driving lights and they do better than the OEMs.
-Dave
The Infiniti FX45 is an interesting concept....maybe they hope to get those luxury buyers out of those Escalades and Navigators and back into a less obvious ED-compensatory vehicle. I was surprised that the marketing for that car was not more tailored to the upscale buyers.
I hear Audi is going to stop making the allroad now that the A7 is coming for crossover folks and the new S6 wagon is coming for the performance folks. Yet neither is an allroad, which seemed to have taken a big bite out of the Land Rover/Range Rover market share . It makes you wonder who makes these decisions inside the automakers...some perceived guru like Alan Greenspan at the Fed or a marketing committee armed with mountains of market surveys?
Mark
I really think that's something that SPT or even the aftermarket should provide.
Bruce: I'm with you. I hope the turbo is not far from current GT pricing. Even if they delete leather.
The $30k+ model should be the low volume H6 or STi, whatever they call it. Put HIDs on that, maybe.
-juice
I would prefer that the body design incorporate the ability for placement(s) of auxiliary lights. I think it will be the cheaper alternative option.
-Dave
...but I'm holding out for a similarly equipped Legacy.
-Colin
-mike
Bob
How do DRLs work with HIDs? Presumably there is a seperate bulb for that. You're still going to have to change that seperate bulb, right? So that cancels out any time/effort savings you might have had.
But let me go back to my merit argument, the Protege5's halogen lights were the BEST tested, with the farthest viewing distance for an obstable. Would you really want to convince Mazda to down grade their #1 rated lights to a lesser light, HID or whichever?
They aren't necessarily better, is what I'm saying, so we should not assume that they are even an upgrade at all.
-juice
Jim
"...but to be honest, we didn't notice the former either in the seat of our pants or on the track ..."
Anyone that says that (a few reviewers have)doesn't know how to use it to it's full potential, and have not seen John Felstead's racing pics on nasioc. ;-)
Everyone says the same about the STi's slower steering though.
-Dennis
Most of my rally buddies are leaning the other way, sadly.
-brianV
"The self-shifter is Subaru's first to feature direct solenoid shift control (dubbed Direct AT) for increased shift smoothness and response. Removal of mechanical hydraulic accumulators and control valves is claimed to have saved 2.5kg from the auto's weight."
Jim
Another data point, finally. Still, these are just estimates. The only ones to do instrumented tests are C&D.
However, IMO, there is no way the difference is just 4 tenths, no way no how. I believe the 6.8 for the auto, put it that way. 6.4 maybe for a rolling start 5-60 on the 5 speed. I'd buy that.
Edmunds put a big emphasis on price, they mentioned it several times. They also think the STi is better day to day.
The EVO doesn't have HIDs (LOL, had to bring that up).
Patti did tell us about Direct Control. I guess what I'd like to drive is an "adapted" one, to see if it's really any better.
-juice
The old auto system used "hydraulic switching valves to direct oil pressure to hydraulic clutches from the oil pump," and additional components such as "line pressure control solenoids, accumulators and hydraulic control valves," all absent in the new system.
More info here.
-tom
Jim
-Dave
-mike
-juice
-mike
-Brian
Could this be due to Turbo Image ? Forester does not even offer cash backs.....it is only for legacy/out
Then you get spill over, people may buy an XS or even an X model. Performance generates dealer traffic, absolutely.
-juice
Its the tact I thought Subaru should have (is going to?) taken with their entire model line. Offer value models for the Subaru faithful. Thats a no brainer because they will buy a Subaru because its a Subaru and you dont have to do much to keep them. Toyota(my mom) and Honda(my dad) do the exact same thing. The way to get(steal) new customers into the system is to offer high powered neck snapping models at mass market prices.
"Driven by whats inside" is a cool slogan but I would also like to see:
"Its safe, practical, and fast as <bleep>"
legacy GT pricing is the key, they will have to market it the way they did WRX !
as always, i think they should put the same turbo on outback VDC & market it as cheaper option to XC, allroad etc.
Or else they will fail.
The Forester packs a punch the size of a Porsche Cayenne S. Bigger. And not as ugly. LOL
-juice
any comments, folks ?
The XT is waaaaay quicker than the S.
juice dont forget that the Forester is FASTER than the Porker I man Porsche Cayenne S (probably the Turbo too) and the Infiniti FX35/45 and the RX300 and anything else in its class the three classes above and all the classes below. Its the WRX of its class
Outback = smooth operation.
Legacy/Impreza = screaming performance.
I like the idea of setting the lines apart.
He would like an OB, but will only consider it if it comes with a turbo.
He's English and I believe Europeans, and most American enthusiasts, don't represent enough of what mainstream America wants and what Subaru will actually do. All the mainstream cares about is the number of cylinders.
Maybe Subaru will prove me wrong. :-)
-Dennis
Legacy GT must have an option like this !!!!!!!!
Outback is supposed to be an SUV alternative, and most of those use V6 or even V8 engines. Number of cylinders matters to those shoppers, they tend to prefer a six over a 4, even a blown 4. So what if the Navigator is very slow, it's still selling quite well. Hey, it has a big V8!
But GT buyers want performance. It's going to get cross shopped with some quick competition and it has to keep up with those. That English friend would buy (and prefer) this type of vehicle anyway, they're not after raised suspensions.
What nematode said, basically.
-juice
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/suv/112_0308_frst_subs/
Have you seen their list of COTY winners? It's laugh-out-loud funny. MT is not known for their accuracy.
FWIW, I think they published 0-60 times for the N/A model.
-juice
Vishnu WRX 12.8 sec. @ 110.4 mph
WRX STi 13.1 sec. @105.2 mph
STi Hunter 13.6 sec. @ 101.2 mph
SPI WRX 13.8 sec @ 102.7 mph
Zero-to-60 Acceleration
Vishnu WRX 4.7 sec
WRX STi 4.9 sec.
STI Hunter 5.2 sec.
SPI WRX 5.7 sec
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0308scc_sti01/
Vishnu WRX 0/0 B2B, 0/0 Powertrain
WRX STi 3/36 B2B, 5/60 Powertrain
STi Hunter 0/0 B2B, 0/0 Powertrain
SPI WRX 0/0 B2B, 0/0 Powertrain
Plus you can finance the total car, so you don't have to cough up all the mod money up front (or worse, charge it and pay interest).
-juice