Subaru Crew - Future Models II

robr2 · October 2003

Bob - I presume they are the same based on my assumption that the Golf/Bora are built on the same platform.

The Bora Variant isn't sold in the UK but the Golf Variant is. I'll never understand auto companies.

qbrozen · October 2003

Not really the forum for it, but, in response to your comments, the Element DOES come with AWD.

And it sounds to me like the vehicle your wife wants is alot like the Pilot.

jimmyp1 · October 2003

she can't make up her mind. She claims to not like the Pilot, yet would like a 150% Element. I think what it comes down to is that she wants some of this new age styling ala Murano, etc. She finally told me the Suburban was too big, and then all these other "I like"s started coming out. I told her that some people were saying that the Subaru 7 seater looked like the Murano from the side and that got a positive response, but I need to do something a little sooner than that. Perfect example of being a little late to the SUV/Crossover ballgame.

Jim

qbrozen · October 2003

did I miss pics of the subaru 7-seater?

late to the game. definitely. And might not even make it to bat if the report I heard on the radio this morning is true and gas goes up another 40 cents before the end of the year!

jimmyp1 · October 2003

but it's apparently a concept with people who "have heard from dealers that have seen it" saying that it resembles the Murano from the side. The concept in the picture has a B11S-like grill, and the people who have seen it say it carries over to the real deal fairly intact.

Jim

jimmyp1 · October 2003

I don't think this link breaks any rules...

http://www.auto-motor-sport.de/sixcms/media.php/76/SubaruSUV_450.- jpg

Jim

ateixeira · October 2003

Let's say they did make a 3 door hatchback, then. Should they sell it in the US? Maybe not, at first. Sell it in Europe and maybe even campaign it on WRC.

If it does well in WRC, then there'd be demand. If it performed at very high levels, people may not even care, and they could sell it right off the bat.

But look at the Civic Si. Great little car, fun, quick, cheap, and it's still not selling. I use this example specifically because Bob likes it and I don't. Dealers cannot give them away. The previous Si coupe had no such problem.

So I think a base 2.5l hatchback should not be offered in the US. Maybe short wheelbase performance models only, less weight, better turn in, etc.

I think that yellow one is a photochop. I wonder if we'll get the toned down front-end, like the R2/R1e and B9 Scrambler.

-juice

ateixeira · October 2003

BTW, Bob, I see what you mean about VW and the whole moving upscale thing, but again that's another point where we think differently.

-juice

ateixeira · October 2003

I noticed none of the pictures show the top - is it a soft top? It has a hard tonneau cover, so if so it tucks away neatly. I wonder if the concept has a top at all.

-juice

hondafriek · October 2003

A very large percentage of the vehicles in Europe are either hatchbacks or small wagons, there is a Civic hatchback 5 door, and you cannot tell from looking at it that it is not a sedan the rear door Is so cleverly designed.

But I think it also has a lot to do with the cost of gas, people there want a small car that will do it all, haul people and their stuff, the gas guzzling monsters that the average American wants will never make in large numbers over there.

Trucks there as well as large SUVs are considered work vehicles and need to pay their way, very few people would have a truck as an everyday vehicle.

Cheers Pat.

rsholland · October 2003

I think when Subaru means they are moving upscale, VW (as it currently stands) is sort of what Subaru is shooting for; more upscale than Subaru currently is, but not way upscale like some others. Subaru will be moving upscale in gradual steps. It won't be one giant leap into Mercedes S-Class league, not by a long shot.

Speaking of Mercedes: They have stated that the next-generation A-Class, which will be slight larger than the current version, will be coming to the USA. Yet another hatchback from a premium brand...

Bob

jimmyp1 · October 2003

where a FHI/SOJ/SOA executive said Audi was their goal, plain and simple, just fyi. Who knows how official his words were, though.

Jim

ateixeira · October 2003

Umm, Bob? I heard they waited for the next A-class so they could style it like an SUV. Let's see what it looks like - I don't think it'll look like a hatch at all.

I can see Subaru being the "Japanese VW", i.e. a step up from the mainstream brands, but with better reliability.

Audi is too small to be their goal, I guess. But they are sportier, and VW leans towards luxury, supposedly. So maybe "Japanese Audi"?

In the past I've heard them compared to Saab, due to their quirky nature, and Porsche, for their boxer engines.

-juice

lark6 · October 2003

I can - and sort of do - see Subaru as the Japanese Audi, especially since I noticed the similarities when I cross-shopped them. If Audi had better long-term reliability and maintenance costs, they could be considered the German Subaru.

Ed

ateixeira · October 2003

Ed: remember your theory about most Subie owners being able to afford a better car, but getting one for its value?

VPs and above here at work get the only reserved parking spots, and in those 5 or so spots sit an SVX and an Outback. You may be onto something...

Some may just figure it's like an Audi with fewer hassles, perhaps?

-juice

rsholland · October 2003

on the WRX wagon, I bet will find it on the 9-2X turbo.

Bob

njswamplands · October 2003

like it used the edsel grill

kens · October 2003

Japanese VW/Audi -- does that make VW/Audi the German Subaru?

I wonder if the 9-2X will feature the same sliver-sized moonroof on the WRX sedan.

Ken

merrycynic · October 2003

Doesn't the Subaru convertible look like the BMW Z4 that should have been? I'm not in the market, but, very tasty none the less. Nice work Subaru.

lark6 · October 2003

juice: Yes, that's a theory, but I wouldn't feel comfortable extending it to all Subaru owners - the financial part, that is. I do think of them as Audis with fewer hassles, fewer creature comforts to be sure but also maybe a little less pretense.

Ken: Think about the old Beetle and the 360 and consider VW and Subaru were once even closer conceptually. I could draw analogies between Subaru and Saab (aviation heritage) and Subaru and Studebaker (hill-holder clutch) but that'd be a stretch.

BTW, does anyone else find Saab's "Welcome to the state of independence" ads among the most ironic in the industry?

Ed

lucien2 · October 2003

I think it is silly. Not as silly as Harley Earl, but still.

locke2c · October 2003

High irony! LOL

-Colin

ateixeira · October 2003

Good point, Bob. I think Saab could really fill the gaps, the moonroof being just one example. Offer HIDs, Navigation, etc. Those who want it can pay more and get it. The rest of us can stick with good ol' Subies.

Harley Earl is turning in his grave, at least if he saw the new Rainier commercial. Shameful.

Saab's offense is minor in comparison.

-juice

lark6 · October 2003

Haven't seen that ad, juice, and even though I don't live in the PNW I've been there enough to associate the name Rainier with cheap beer. How many ways can you rebadge a Blazer? Sheesh.

Ed

ateixeira · October 2003

Ridiculous. Aren't they considering a Saab? Badge engineering at its worst - they have Chevy, GMC, Olds, Isuzu, and now Buick.

-juice

rsholland · October 2003

I wonder if it will come with a better warranty than the Subaru? This is one of the benefits of a premium brand.

Bob

ateixeira · October 2003

Do they also do free maintenance? That's a big appeal of a new Audi, BMW, or Mercedes. They cover free maintenance for 4 years, all you need it gas.

Premium gas. ;-)

-juice

hondafriek · October 2003

With the number of problems that Audi have MB as well, they need to offer an all inclusive warranty BMW maintenance costs are out of this world I think Colin can attest to that.

Cheers Pat.

ateixeira · October 2003

Still, it's a nice way to control your costs for the first few years.

Doesn't the LL Bean come with 2 years free service? Strange that it does and the VDC doesn't.

It's something for Subaru to consider if they move upscale. The top tier luxury manufacturers do it.

-juice

jimmyp1 · October 2003

I give this only slightly more consideration than the possibility of cold fusion powered cars in the next few years, but someone over at NASIOC who claims to have connections at a dealership or SOA says that Subaru is in the testing phases with a new H8. Maybe your 5.0XTB11Swhatever will be a reality. News and Rumors, if anyone is interested. This guy might get flamed beyond belief, I dunno.

Jim

locke2c · October 2003

BMW maintenance is pretty expensive, yep.

My local dealership is awesome though. I wouldn't tolerate the fees they charge if they treated me like the local Subaru dealership.

-Colin

rsholland · October 2003

Over at the "other site," in the "News & Rumors" area, there's a new image of the upcoming crossover. It's on the cover of the Japanese auto magazine "DRIVER," and it's a very small image. There's also an enlarged version which is extremely low-res and pixelated. However, if you study it, you can make out some of the details.

Yes it looks similar to the yellow sketch that has been posted here on Edmunds and elsewhere. The grille is clearly B11S-like, but unlike the sketch, the vehicle looks much more graceful; and the grille, while still very dominant, seems better integrated. Still, because the image is so poor, it's not possible to get a good feeling for the overall look yet. However, I'm beginning to feel more positive from what little I can make out.

Bob

ateixeira · October 2003

Pat - I thought of something. Lots of those problems seem to be electrical, I wonder if the luxury makes have just gone beyond what a 14.4 volt system can offer? I know they've been wanted more juice for a while. Just a thought.

H8? Yummy. Some might pronounce it "hate", though.

Colin: cappuccino while you wait in our lounge? Price? If you have to ask, you can't afford it! ;-)

Crossover: wow, that grills is really in your face! Insert Ed's obligatory bathroom scale comment. I like it, but the wife likely won't.

It's more B11S than B9 or even R2/R1e. I was hoping for the latter because my wife is pretty conservative. Still, I'm next in line and I like it.

-juice

rsholland · October 2003

Did you look at that "C" pillar? I know it's a lousy image, but I think I see a hint of a possible extra suicide door just past the "C" pillar, like that found on the B11S. If it's not an extra door, there appears to be something unusual with the rear quarter window; not sure what it is??

Bob

ateixeira · October 2003

OK here it is, for everyone else:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid86/pfb3e6d3a39590341f066- 1f3281d834ac/fab2b045.jpg

It *does* look like there's an extra seam there. Could be a shadow, who knows, it's hard to tell.

The back is not square. :-(

-juice

ateixeira · October 2003

Headlights look Legacy-ish.

What are those white skirts under the front? Wierd.

I see X5 in the profile, with that bulge running down the side.

Ground clearance looks good.

The windshield and rear window are both raked, more than I'd like actually. Looks more Sport than Utility.

That one guy said it was a cross between a mininvan and an SUV, I don't see any minivan influence at all.

Thoughts?

-juice

rangner · October 2003

Looks good to me. looks like a B11S/Rodeo/X5. I like it. Maybe a good blend of sport and utility.

Eric

lark6 · October 2003

Bathroom scale? At that resolution it looks like a pig's snout. The rest of the pic is reminiscent of an X5 or Cayenne.

I am trying to convince myself that the "wings" of the grille remind me of the 1956-61 Studebaker Hawks or the Sunbeam Rapier Series III of the same time period. Otherwise I don't think I can digest this new design direction.

Ed

ozman62 · October 2003

I think I'll reserve any judgement untill I can really see something. Who knows where this picture came from, the resolution is so low that it could have been some grade school kid's art project. I think it looks comepletely different than the greeny yellow one whose picture has been around. This version seems much more angular, and the grille thing seems to be a lot more prominent and flows up onto the hood. I smell Photoshop. By the way Bob, whether the photo shows it or not, the idea of a small suicide door to allow ingress for the rearmost passengers is a great one. I don't think anybody else is doing this in this vehicle configuration. This could be the feature that adds the Subaru uniqueness to this model.
H-8? OMG! Juice, if this comes to be, there will be people pronouncing it 'hate'. Namely, owners of V-8s. Paisan must be drooling, thinking of the potential torque output of this engine. What is Subaru going to use for a tranny though?
Owen

ateixeira · October 2003

I agree, this one is more angular, the most aggressive design so far.

Not sure which one I like better. I'd have to see the yellow one in other colors first. The red one looks bigger, though.

-juice

rsholland · October 2003

the cover of DRIVER magazine, which is a Japanese car magazine. It was used very small on the cover. This image you see is the same image enlarged a whole lot. This is what happens (in terms of quality) when you enlarge a "pixel" image a whole bunch.

Bob

wrxsoon1 · October 2003

I'm with Owen on reserving judgement for a clearer picture of what we're looking at. The new grill looks huge in that picture. The profile shot is very X5. If they add a small suicide door behind the second full door that would be a great idea. Hopefully the grill is a whole lot more subdued than that.

-Ian

wheelz4 · October 2003

Definitely have to wait for some better pix. Can anyone else see what look to be nostrils in the "pig's snout"? This has to be photoshopped (and a bad one at that). I'll stick with the yellow one for now......maybe I'll try to change the colour of that one in photoshop.

bluesubie · October 2003

My favorite "pic" of the WRX before it debuted, was in a Japanese magazine. It looked nothing like the bugeye model.

-Dennis

rsholland · October 2003

I wouldn't make any decisions -- good or bad -- by these images. They can can be very misleading.

Bob

ateixeira · October 2003

Yeah, photochop a light metallic blue onto that yellow one, pretty please?

I'm sure the production model will look nothing like any of these, but it's fun to speculate, no? ;-)

-juice

wheelz4 · October 2003

I'm going to email you a photo"chop" of the yellow one in a kind of blue (although it came out kind of grayish purple....my photo"chop" skills are somewhat lacking, plus I have only a stripped-down version of the program). I also reduced the schnoz by about 20%. It's a little crude but you get the idea. I don't have a photo-hosting site to post it but if you think it's worthwhile, perhaps you could. Cheers.

ateixeira · October 2003

Will check for the photos. I may not have time to host them today, I'm catching up after goofing off in my Halloween costume!

Edit: looks improved with the smaller grille. The color doesn't look right, maybe it's the image quality on my screen.

-juice

hondafriek · October 2003

You may have a point, electrical gremlins seem to be the achilles heel of most of the luxury brands, Jaguar is another mark that comes to mind, but then when I think of it none of the luxury Japanese brands are afflicted with electrical problems that I know of, so It must come down to inferior subsystems.

Cheers Pat.

ateixeira · October 2003

Lexus manages somehow, yeah. I guess they have the best electronics, and that's a big issue with luxury cars and all their gadgets.

-juice

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