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Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    OK, let's do bad news first?

    Or good news to Colin.

    Colin can get his exact car, a 2.5 GT. Production for that model only starts in May, though. The 2.5i (base) and 2.5i Limited start production in March. Supposedly the Outback will start production in April, so actually we'll see it before we see the Legacy turbo.

    I'll break down what we didn't get (at least yet):

    * HIDs
    * Navi
    * no folding seats on sedan
    * still has gooseneck hinges
    * hood still uses prop rods
    * no word on H6 Legacy (looks doubtful)
    * no info on colors
    * no info on pricing (not yet determined)
    * no steering wheel shift buttons on 2.5i and 2.5i LTD
    * no turn signals in mirrors on 2.5i models
    * no express up/down windows (driver down only)
    * no retained power for accessories

    But don't get bummed, the list of goods is even longer!

    -juice
  • subaru_teamsubaru_team Member Posts: 1,676
    are you having fun? What did you like the best about it? Do you think the photo's are doing it justice? Did you convince them to start it up?

    ;-)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    * turn signals in mirrors for turbo models
    * turbos get steering wheel shift buttons
    * turbos get *awesome* seats, very comfy
    * rear cargo cover fits in storage area under cargo cloor
    * 2 power outlets in front of vehicles
    * LTD models get AWP
    * projector beam headlamps are sweet (you may forget the HIDs)
    * LTD models get dual zone climate control
    * turbo 5 speed manual differs from 2.5i manual (beefed up)
    * awesome moonroof on LTD models, almost as big as Forester PP
    * turbo rims are 7x17", 215/45R17 RE92s
    * cool 3 spoke steering wheel
    * GT LTD leather is perforated (seats are sweet!)
    * turbos get 6CD in dash, 2.5i gets 1 CD

    -juice

    PS Much more to come
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Two more misses I forget earlier:

    * no rear wiper on sedan (wasn't expected)
    * no MP3/input on audio systems

    They did not start it up. The engine is quite different than in the XT, intercooler, and engine cover and all.

    -juice
  • hypovhypov Member Posts: 3,068
    Arrrrgh!!! NOT RE92s!!!

    Please SoA Please Pretty Please Go with stickier tires but RE92s Plea....ease

    -Dave
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    * gooseneck hinges are covered and hidden cleverly on trunk
    * aluminum hood and tail gate are light
    * "crossflow" intercooler
    * GT gets trip computer
    * GT LTD gets 8 way power driver seat (but no memory)
    * no Macintosh stereo by the way
    * EJ257 block, same as STi Seth
    * all cars there were Silver!
    * R1e was gone but B9 Scrambler was schweet!
    * wagon seats fold nearly flat without removing seat base
    * windshield wiper nozzles very neatly hidden in cowl (hood looks cleaner)
    * tire pressure monitors!
    * side curtain air bags standard on ALL Legacys
    * all autos are Sportshift, 2.5i a 4EAT, GT 5EAT
    * one touch open moonroof! thank you!
    * smart air bags with passenger seat weight sensor
    * 180 lbs lighter than previous model

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Right off the bat I noticed better interior materials. Specifically the old mouse fur/lint headliner is gone, replaced by a very nice fabric over some soft-touch padding. Even the A-pillar has this nice cover on it.

    The sun visors have the same fabric, plus they have extensions to fill the gaps behind the mirror. The power windows switches are lit, ALL of them! Even the back seats!

    It was funny, we later saw the VW Phaeton, a $68,000 vehicle, and I noticed the headliner used the exact same fabric that Subaru was using. The dash plastics on the Legacy are also padded, generally the ambience does look like one significant step up from the current cars.

    It is not a lot bigger, felt like the same size as the current car.

    We don't see it going head to head with BMW/Audi, but it's certainly equal to if not better than the Passat/Camry/Accord trio.

    There were hints that Navi would be added later, maybe even a 6 speed, hard to say. SoA was concerned about keeping the price down. This bodes well for Colin and Lucien, who want the performance, not the price and content. Maybe they'll add that stuff later if it sells well, and appease the folks that want it all and can pay for it. Maybe in a year or two.

    What else? The tires actually are cool, they bulge out to protect the beads on the rims. The REAR discs on the GT are vented, holy cow. Sill plates look nice, too. Payload is 850 on sedan, 900 on wagon, but no tow ratings yet!

    You just knew Bob would ask that one!

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Hey Seth, remember that chassis you mentioned? Well, we did some detective work.

    Our theory is that it was not a Legacy at all, but instead an Outback.

    It had 17" rims and 225/55R17 tires, definitely not Legacy size. It had the H6 engine, which the Legacy does not get (for now). Dual exhaust too. So this was a sneak peak of the Outback H6, which they will show in Chicago.

    Oh, dual exhaust outlets were on all Legacys, even the 2.5i, and BTW they look scwheet.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Ain't this fun? :o)

    One lady at the stand, who didn't even work for Subaru, sort of let it slip that we'd see a special edition Forester. I sort of thought she meant VTD or Sportshift, but when we mentioned LL Bean, her eyes lit up.

    She would neither confirm nor deny, but I would not be surprised to see an LL Bean Forester. Note that Japan already gets such a model (Ken - can you look up what that model gets?).

    -juice
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    I'm going on 2/9 (first Monday after the Friday opening). I have a new Kodak DX6230 with 256mb sd card. I'll be taking lots of pics of the Outback there. :-)

    -Brian
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    We went to the Cobo Center at noon, when it opened, and went straight to the Subaru booth. They gave their presentation, which was neat, and we asked our book of questions as they went along. Note that they could not answer a lot of them, many time because it just hasn't been determined yet (pricing, colors, towing, etc).

    Either that or they weren't ready to tell us. But we asked several sources.

    We were there for about 90 minutes checking every last detail, taking several hundred photos (to be uploaded later), and then did the rest of the show, which was fun.

    The Cobo Center did not impress me, but the scale of the show did. Food was awful at the center, and the place isn't new or clean, but the show itself is awesome.

    Subaru had: WRX sedan, Forester XT auto PP, Forester XS, '04 Outback LL Bean, '04 Baja turbo auto, B9 Scrambler, and three '05 Legacys, a 2.5i LTD wagon, a GT LTD sedan, and a GT LTD wagon. One GT a MT, the other auto.

    The staff were super, we felt very welcomed.

    Another cool feature we thought about - the center armrest has 2 positions, low and back, and then higher and forward. Very neat. The cup holders are also covered.

    Heated seats had 4 settings. All switchgear felt solid and high quality.

    There is exterior badging, more than Bob had mentioned. It says "Symmetrical AWD" in the rear very small, the "Legacy 2.5GT" is labeled as so, all have "Subaru" on the left side.

    The 7 seater may be further out than we thought. They hinted that it would be shown at Detroit next year. Ugh, for me that is a long wait. We poked and prodded and got very little info on that vehicle, only one hint that it would be sized more like the Ford Freestyle.

    Freestyle is a new 6/7 seater they just debuted now. I actually liked the packaging, slightly bigger than a Pacifica, but not quite Pilot sized.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    B9 Scrambler has a folding hard top! They could not show us, but this was the 2nd source to tell us so.

    All cars at the show had to have the battery disconnected, so this is why we could not try any accessories.

    Front passenger seat has a cargo net on the back, not the driver's side though. I think this is new.

    Hurray, we finally get the cruise master switch on the same stalk as the cruise (a la STi).

    Turbos get an engine cover. Can you believe we did not pop the hood on the 2.5i? Ken that is your first assignment buddy! How did they get the extra 3hp out of that engine? Dual exhaust?

    Door sills on both models, plastic on 2.5i and aluminum on the GT (nice).

    Up close, the taillights have these cool white stripes that only appear from some angles. It's a neat effect you'll have to see to appreciate.

    There are 4 sturdy grab handles, every position gets one.

    Head room to spare even in the sedan. Roof liner is scooped out smartly. Toe space under the front seat is OK, but not roomy.

    I know this is the THIRD time I mention this, but you will love the projector beam headlights. They actually look like HIDs. I think lighting should be very good regardless.

    The door handles grabs do sort of block the window switches. Ergonomically this could have been done better.

    The next coolest car at the show was the Saabaru! HA HA, just kidding. Did look nice, though.

    -juice
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    Thanks for the excellent writeups! I'm looking forward to the photos.

    Many things you mentioned sounded familiar to me, and then I realized they debuted on the 03 Forester (such as front and rear illuminated window switches, aluminum hood and liftgate, one-touch moonroof, etc...). So, it looks like the Forester has been a harbinger of things to come, at least the little details!

    Two reactions:
    1) dual zone climate control: AWESOME!! that will improve my marriage a lot, now I need to convince my wife we need a new car! I wish we could have this feature in our house....

    2) RE 92 tires: Blah! When are car companies going to stop using these horrible tires! Actually, I need to refine that -- the RE92 tires on my Outback are pretty good and have a lot of tread left at 35K. The RE92 tires on the WRX are the crappy ones, same I had on several Hondas, that wear out quickly, becoming noisy and slick. We'll have to see which RE-92 the Legacy uses. If the TW rating is 340-ish, they're the better ones.

    thanks again!
    Craig
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    So put snow tires on the stock rims, and get summer tires with 18"s. ;-)

    -juice
  • sebberrysebberry Member Posts: 148
    Do you think that the NAV and McIntosh sound system would be offered on the Outback?

    I want to upgrade, but only if these are offered.
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Great reporting there, juice!

    To answer your first question on the LL Bean Forester, it's an X20 with the additional:

    - LL Bean edition leather seats
    - Leather wrapped steering wheel
    - Custom cargo and rear seat back mats
    - HID lights
    - Custom wheels
    - Self-leveling suspension

    It's in Japanese, but the website is:
    http://www.llbean.co.jp/homepages/subaru/subaru.html

    Pop the 2.5i hood? Got it.

    Ken
  • goneskiiangoneskiian Member Posts: 381
    Damn it Subaru! Why do you have to produce the car I want LAST!!!!

    OK, Ian take some deep breaths and count to 10. Don't use all those nasty curse words coursing through your mind. Another deep breath or two.

    OK. I feel better now, but not much. I'm VERY DISAPPOINTED that they are waiting so long to put this car into production. I was hoping to have one by May.

    Curse you SOA! That Volvo V70R may yet end up in my driveway. :-P

    -Ian
  • jfljfl Member Posts: 1,397
    Ian,

    OTOH the assemblers' learn on the first vehicles and by the time they get to yours, it'll be near perfect.

    Jim
  • beanboybeanboy Member Posts: 442
    to decide between Forester XT or Legacy GT. Well, money would be nice for either... harhar

    -B
  • jfljfl Member Posts: 1,397
    What are the dates of the Chicago Auto show? I'll be passing through in mid-February.

    Jim
  • goneskiiangoneskiian Member Posts: 381
    Thanks Jim. That's a good point. ;-)

    I guess since I've waited for a good year and a half for a new car what's a few more months, eh?

    Then again maybe it'll be ready in July and I'll get it for my birthday.

    -Ian (Still fuming in Seattle, but trying to find a bright side)
  • subaru_teamsubaru_team Member Posts: 1,676
    of sharing the information here. Thank you! It is appreciated.

    Patti
  • n8wvin8wvi Member Posts: 43
    No remote trunk release on sedans? When is Subaru going to come out with this?!?! Cars costing THOUSANDS less have it!

    Dave
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    http://www.chicagoautoshow.com/ - Feb 6 - 15 (media preview Feb 4-5).

    -Brian
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,729
    4 settings on the bun warmers but no memory on the seat? That's just an odd oversight.

    and no folding rear seat in the sedan? That very well could be a deal breaker for me.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    is the bloody price. :-)

    Thanks for all the hard work, guys!
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    You guys better stop drooling. Patti is probably reporting directly to the home office, and they're going to raise prices because of all the demand!!

    Craig
  • sweet_subiesweet_subie Member Posts: 1,394
    I sent an email to subaru about the PR inteview. the response was even more pathetic saying "sorry to hear that the product is pathetic"

    probably, i should complain to Subaru-Global !
  • bigelmbigelm Member Posts: 995
    ... most of them not so great! Especially the production date for the turbo.
  • bblachabblacha Member Posts: 160
    Thanks Juice for the great reporting!
    All this talk of new models has grabbed my attention back to Subaru - I switched to Honda (accordV6) a couple years back looking for a good performance/value mix, but now I'm tired of the wheel spin, the slushbox, and the trunk. Much more performance/value in Subies now!

    Speaking of trunks - I guess goosenecks are OK if well covered up, so they don't crush your stuff. No remote release has the advantage of thwarting thieves - my wife's Civic was broken into so they could pop the trunk and steal stuff. Of course you can lock it, but...
    Now the lack of folding seat is a problem - would be a deal breaker for me too. Maybe it makes the car stiffer or something? What's the deal with that?

    Bart
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Guys don't worry about no HIDs. I have the subaru projectors in the SVX and they work AWSOME, near HID in terms of light output and visibilty and that's with 12 year old plastic covers that are badly faded!

    -mike
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Any word on the dash layout and/or pics of it?

    -mike
  • bigelmbigelm Member Posts: 995
    but the production date does... So, it looks like the G35 is back on the Win column.

    I really was looking forward to this Legacy... :-(
  • lark6lark6 Member Posts: 2,565
    Wow. From your description, juice, it sounds like the new Legacies take Subaru quality and amenities to a whole new level. Regardless of how the product is positioned and marketed, I personally still see Subarus as more affordable and reliable alternatives to Audis.

    Speaking of which, I picked up a copy of Where The Suckers Moon, one of the items on my Amazon wish list that didn't show up under the Christmas tree. I've wanted to read the book for some time, not only because I own the subject product but also for its insights into advertising, marketing, image and perception, something I have to deal with in my day job on an ever-increasing basis. From what I gather the book ends in early 1993, wth SoA in dire straits. It would seem a postscript to Suckers Moon is in order.

    Given my current life demands I should be able to finish reading it by the end of the year. ;-) I kid, I kid: I was able to e-mail Loosh last night with one hand while feeding the baby with the other. Maybe I can join tonight's chat if all goes well.

    Ed
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    The dates shouldn't surprise anyone. Most of the mag articles I read stated N/A version in the Spring, followed by turbo in the summer.

    Elm/paisan - Good point. My post was deleted. Didn't think some eyes are here like "over there", but it's better to be safe.

    -Dennis
  • sweet_subiesweet_subie Member Posts: 1,394
    why not HID & nav as options if they have them in japan

    why does subaru always have to fall behind ? I am tired of waiting for subaru to get things right ? it has been years for them to get to legacy ? now some more time to get options right ?

    do they stuff leather with the turbo, anyone ?
  • bat1161bat1161 Member Posts: 1,784
    Juice-

    Thanks to you and Bob for getting all the info to us.

       The GT is sounding very intriguing. I like the dual climate controls; like Craig it is a good selling point with the missus for an upgrade. I also want to see this moonroof set up - I've always wanted one and here the GT has most everything that would make me happy. Now to convince the wife:-)

    Mark

    PS -Keep up the good work!
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Folks, folks, folks. No HID and Nav is a bit of a disappointment, but let's hold judgement until we know the price. I'm sure Subaru had to drop these two relatively costly options in favor of a more palatable MSRP.

    The new Legacy is leaps and bounds improved over the exiting one. Better power, upscale trim, nicer styling -- it's all for the better! This model is the closest we've ever come to a JDM model.

    The May production date is a bit of a letdown BUT I'd rather have the plant work out the kinks on a few base Legacys than on my Legacy GT! ;-)

    Ken
  • kenokakenoka Member Posts: 218
    I for one am more excited than disappointed. The only options I was really looking for that I didn't get were Nav and the McIntosh, but both are things I can live without. Otherwise, everything looks great. I only hope now that SOA doesn't raise prices too much. If they follow the trend worldwide, we should only see a minor price increase for the GT. Given that the previous GT was underpowered and overpriced, the new GT should balance things out if SOA holds the line on pricing. Hopefully that's why the Nav and McIntosh weren't included.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Japan has different HID rules than USDM. 2nd what's the big deal of HIDs if the projectors are just as good? Oh bling factor forgot that...'

    Not to mention who cares about the nav and stereo? They are VERY VERY easily installed aftermarket for less than the factory option, same goes with the RE92s. For instance I know several STi owners who's cars came with "nice" tires that immediately took them off because they weren't the ones THEY wanted. I'm all for crappy tires, crappy stereo/nav as long as the price break is there. I rather have the car cost about $3K less and let me take the $3K and put it into tires, stereo and Nav of my own choosing.

    -mike
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    good job one handed, although you did give me a fright....I thought you were someone else when the pm popped up.

    Legacy- Hermmmmm. I have some major thinking to do. I really don't want to wait until June or July. If I am going to wait that long, I am better off fixing everything that needs fixing, and drive the compromise vehicle another 40k. OTOH, I wonder if I will suffer buyers' remorse looking at a new Legacy turbo from inside my FXT. Assuming of course that a 2.5GT can even be had for around $25k, which we don't know yet. Meh.
  • cptpltcptplt Member Posts: 1,075
    looked up the 215/45-17 RE92 on the Bridgestone website, its Z rated. On the "other " site, everyone is moaning about H rated 17inch Re92s, where did they get that from??

    The Bridgestone website shows the OEM users of the tire at present as the Lexus IS.

    Interesting SOA would put a 17in all season on rather than a 17in summer tire. Oh well, when I get my Legacy GT in 2 years I will have to upgrade. Maybe I will put my stock tires back on my WRX and save the tread on my 17 in S03s for the new Legacy!I hope you can put 16in rims on the new legacy GT, I don't even want to think how much a 17 in snowtire will cost!
  • sweet_subiesweet_subie Member Posts: 1,394
    HID & Nav can be offered as premium package & so only those who want can buy.

    what's wrong with that ?

    I intend to keep this new car for 10 yrs or so, i can;t buy without everything in it.
  • hypovhypov Member Posts: 3,068
    The OEMs would cost in the ballpark of $4,000 added to the MSRP.

    I personally would take the route of going aftermarket for those things.

    Hella Micro Xenon DE - $700 (Yes, they are the real HIDS)
    StreetPilot III - $600 or cheaper (SP 2610 $899)

    That's a savings of ~$3,000 for other goodies :)

    -Dave
  • hypovhypov Member Posts: 3,068
    sweet_subie Jan 7, 2004 9:18pm

    Just watched the PR interview.
    It wasn't that BAD. Very raw and lacking projection of confidence, but still wasn't that bad.
    Cut her some slack, she's definitely new in the arena. Body language says she's tense/nervous/excited all rolled in one.

    I would bet that she would have done better if she had the new GT as prop during the interview.

    -Dave
  • hondafriekhondafriek Member Posts: 2,984
    With Mike, Dave and Colin on this, leave out the luxury items like Navigation and fancy stereo, and HIDs, in order to keep the price reasonable.

     All this stuff can be added aftermarket for the folks who really want it, and I would venture to say that the percentage who want these options are in the minority.

     I would think that Subaru's thinking is in keeping the price down in order to move lots of cars, hence these costly options are left off, remember it was the high initial cost that has left the H6 languishing in the basement regarding sales.

      There was not a lot of people willing to pay the asking price for a Subaru that the H6 demanded so I would think that experience was not lost on the Subaru brass.

       Cheers Pat.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    well, sort of...

    Made it back to BWI, just fine, except for one thing—my luggage is lost!

    My bag had my camera (with mucho pics), a wonderful new LL Bean Subaru winter coat (thank you SOA!), clothes, cell phone charger, brochures—you name it.

    Hopefully it will be on the next flight to BWI...

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Patti, thank you, and SOA so much for everything!

    Since juice had the laptop, and the fact that he types at Brenda-like warp speed; he did all the posting the last couple of nights, with me looking over his shoulder. He's pretty much covered the highlights. While I know a lot of you were expecting answers to certain things, the info either wasn't available, or the good folks from SOA weren't about to spill the LL Beans...

    We got about as much info as we could, but I know there remain some unanswered questions. Hopefully in the next month or so, we can connect the remaining dots.

    Bob
  • bat1161bat1161 Member Posts: 1,784
    Dumb question- the 2.5GT -will that require Premium or Regular gas? Just one more factor to consider, although it has been pointed out on these boards that the $$ difference between premium and regular is negligble over the course of a year.

    Bob- welcome back; hope you get your luggage soon!

    Mark
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
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