Leo: he's not telling the whole truth. Legacys, Outbacks, and Imprezas have had financial incentives up to $500 for years now. Not the brand new Impreza, but still.
Forester is the only Soob never to have had dealer cash or customer cash incentives, and even it has had cut-rate financing.
Man - the NY show isn't until April 13th? Our speculations will be really out of control by then! I still suspect it's something based on the Legacy/Blitzen, probably the 2.5 H4.
The brakes in my Outback are fine :-). (If you want mushy brakes, my previous ride - '97 Chevy Z71 - suffered from mushy brakes.) I think the 2 stage booster just takes some getting adjusted too. Probably should continue this thread in Meet the Members...
I've found the brake feel on Subarus to vary quite a bit.
My 98 Forester S has what I would describe as a good, firm feel. Another friend who drives a 98 L (with rear drum vs. rear disc) also has similar brake feel as well.
However, when I drove a friend's 99L, I was suprised at how "soft" the brake pedal felt. But then again, another friend of mine who owns a 00S has similar brake feel as my 98S. Hmmmm.
Recently, I had a chance to drive a 00OB Ltd. Sedan for a few days while I was having my tranny worked on. The brakes on that vehicle were very soft -- I had to considerably change my driving habits. A couple days later, I tried driving a 01 VDC Wagon and the brakes felt fine.
A couple days after driving the 00OB Ltd. Sedan, I got back into my 98 Forester S and nearly flew out the windshield at the first stop sign -- that's how different the brake action was.
My guess -- perhaps Subaru made some changes that led to a "softer" brake feel and then corrected it in later models.
Go check your dealers guys, I just got to look at 6 WRX's and 2 TS wagons today. All I can say is that they are SOOO good inperson its unbelieveable! And they FEEL like the last gen RS when you sit in them, but they are soooo much more refined! Theyre like the new Legacy in terms of refinement, very nice!
rsholland: re: stx at ny autoshow - it was just an opinion. Not sure I would trust all sources of "a new wagon". The press gets things wrong alot. If it was a new form-function, then why haven't we heard about it from Japan yet? they get everything first...
anyway, its not like anyone here has anything but guesses either
anyway I am now going to change my guess to a new legacy GT with a turbo 2.0 or 2.5 or a forester with a turbo (long overdue!)
seems more likely than bringing the blitzen over here
Ken: that's wild. Perhaps you can adjust the brake pedals a bit?
paisan: while the Axiom rebadge is a distant possibility, I don't think it'll happen. It's a truck, and Subaru doesn't market trucks. Also, by itself it would not meet CAFE standards.
Give us the H6 Outback sedan, and a 2.5l turbo for both the Forester and Legacy GT. Let's see some class-leading power figures.
Well funny how you mentioned it as a truck. I was watching the Speedvision coverage of the Chicago auto-show, and when they were doing the part about women's vehicles, they mention the Axiom as a wagon based on a truck but that it would appeal to the same crowd as the passat wagon OB and XC. I thought that was quite funny. How does the CAFE work, I thought it was the whole prduct line that counted toward the CAFE. Also they can leave the TOD permentantly engaged like on the Vehicross and that would cover Subarus "all our vehicles have AWD" marketing.
subaru is still having trouble with mating a 5 speed with an H6, so a turbo 4 in the legacy gt makes more sense - since it would essentially be the same drivetrain
unless they decide to put an h6 w/auto in the legacy gt .. that would be horrible!
Axiom is very car-like to Isuzu, but I'm sure it'll still be categorized as a truck by just about everyone.
CAFE standard are 20.7 mpg fleet average for trucks, 27.5 mpg fleet average for cars. I'm not sure if they use the highway figure or an average of the EPA figures.
So Isuzu cannot sell the Axiom as a car, else it would pay huge fines.
Subaru is borderline for cars. They were right at the limit, without paying fines. I'm sure they gave the WRX and VDC tall gearing to obtain the 20/27 EPA figures and avoid fines.
Subies could be faster if it were not for CAFE. The WRX has a 3.91 to 1 final drive, but it could easily use the 4.11 final drive from other Subies, gearing it about 5% higher for quicker take-off and less lag. The penalty would be a drop in fuel economy.
So Subaru won't do it, but it does not mean creative owners can't swap them out.
That the Trucks and cars were classified differently in the CAFE ratings. Isuzu must pay through the nose then, since none of their cars even get 21mpg on the highway even! I believe the Rodeo is the closest on 2wd like 21mpg on the highway EPA rated. Interesting stuff though.
last night and asked what was new. I was told that there will be a new up-scale Forester with the H6 coming out for 2002. Maybe they will call it the "L.L. Bean VDC Outback S+ Premium Forester".
Also got a chance to sit in a new yellow WRX. Very nice, and I was surprised that my large frame fit into it, with the seat lowered. I could tell from the smells and crackles that someone had been out driving it, and they weren't just going for a loaf of bread either!
My understanding is that the current 5-speed manual won't fit behind the new H-6. I heard that from a Subaru rep from Japan at the Washington DC Auto Show.
Re: new wagon at NY. The more I think about it, a high performance Legacy makes the most sense. It could very well debut the oft-rumored 2.5 turbo, which would make sense. I think when the new Forester does arrive, it will offer that engine. So, it would make sense to get it in the "premium" Legacy before it goes in the Forester.
Juice- Re: tall gearing of the H-6—all the more reason for a 5-speed automatic. I'm sure you noted that every vehicle in the C&D comparo had a 5-speed tranny of some sort, except the Outback.
Paisan- As I'm sure you know, Isuzu doesn't make any cars. Everything they sell here is an SUV, or Class III or larger truck. Also, isn't the Axiom really just a new body on the current Trooper platform, with perhaps a somewhat softer suspension? I'm not sure why Isuzu seems to think that it will appeal to those looking at cross-over SUVs. To me it's still a truck-based SUV, not that there's anything wrong with that (as per G. Seinfeld).
It's the Rodeo chassis, with the ISC (Intelligent Suspension Control) which varies the rear shocks valving as you drive to give it a smoother ride. It's dropped down about 1.5-2inches from the Rodeo, it's smaller than the Trooper, but uses the Trooper drivetrain (3.5l 230hp), TOD and grade logic transmission. It has a liftgates and underbody mounted spare tire. Basically it's a station wagon, like a full sized caprice wagon of the 80s cause it uses a full frame. They are marketing it as a big wagon, although I think it qualifies as a "truck" due to the frame, etc.
Yeah, I thought it was based on the Rodeo. Big engine, though, should be fun. I don't like the Judge Dredd styling though. Huge grille, tiny headlights? It's the polar opposite of the WRX.
Bob: I noticed it was the only 4 speed, too.
But my question is this - how can that 4Mo hit 60 in 8.1s after the same publication clocked one a full 1.5s slower? Auto, too!
Ken, I totally agree with your comments. The brakes in my 97 OBS (rear drum) feel like they grab a lot quicker than the brakes in my wife's 99 OB Ltd. I have to change my driving habits every time I drive it.
with the 2.5L H4? It seem quite peppy to me. Of course, I drive a '94 Toyota Paseo so......
Anyways, I didn't get a chance to drive the Forester L on the highway so I don't know if its weakness is highway passing or not. But up and down hills on curvey roads it did very well.
In your opinion is it worth the extra $$$ to move up to the S model. The salesman said the L model was the "base" model. But compared to other car manufacturers base model this L model came well equipped in my opinion.
The 2.5H4 is fine for the sedans, and lightly loaded wagon/utes, the problem is that once you start putting stuff in em, you notice the power quickly exits. Albeit, I'm a psycho fast driver, but once I loaded up a legacy GT wagon with 5 guys, it couldn't get out of it's own way, let alone if I put our camping gear for a week + a 2000lb boat trailer... If you don't have those particular needs (lots of bodies, gear, trailer + psycho fast driving) the 2.5H4 is just fine
For the features. IMHO the rear LSD and rear disc brakes were worth the price difference alone, the winter pkg (heated seats, mirrors, and wipers)and the in-dash CD changer just sweetened the deal. The S+ would have been nice, but my wife wanted leather more than a moonroof. We couldn't afford both.
Leo: I do not think the Forester is underpowered. It's no longer the class leader, but it's still far and beyond what the RAV4 and CR-V offer in terms of torque, and outruns several V6s in the class as well (Grand Vitara, Santa Fe, XTerra).
Is the S worth it? I'd strech that and spring for the S Premium, which is well worth it.
The S (about 2 grand) gives you the rear LSD, heated seats/mirrors/windshield, CD changer, 16" alloys with better tires, rear disc brakes, and more.
The Premium package (under a grand) gets you that convertible roof and side air bags, plus the monotone paint.
But you are correct - even the L is well equipped to start with. ABS, AWD, power windows/locks/mirrors, A/C, cassette, etc. If you put value ahead of features, go for it.
I really think we'll see a new "flavor" of the Legacy wagon, never before seen. To me, that's the most logical choice. Also, remember the NY Show is often used for "big" introductions by Subaru. I really do expect to see the 2.5 turbo in a Legacy wagon. I'd be really surprised if it's anything else.
Well it's supposed to give the soccer moms a feeling of power What was that movie with mel gibson? You guys already know me, I'm an all go/utility person so if it's ugly but moves or hauls stuff, I like em. The Axiom looks like it will if priced right, reach into the mid to small size SUV market taking aim at Escapes, Highlanders, etc. I like the isuzus just cause they are more of a traditional car a-la- 70s with a frame, longitudially mounted engine, no funky stuff on the engine to break etc.
But fully loaded it's supposed to top out MSRP @ $29K, but Isuzu always has some deep discounts so look for a fully loaded one for around $26K. Maybe it is a step up but not a big step.
Agreed. With discounts the prices will probably be close. Escapes advertise low starting prices, but check them out - it's $25k with the stuff typical buyers want.
I wonder where a GT Turbo would be priced? I say drop the GT Ltd and let the turbo take its place, for a similar price (hope so!), but give us a sedan and wagon.
If it costs more, at least give us VDC and HIDs. And a 6 speed. I prefer the cheaper alternative, or both, though.
Actually, I still think of the Forester to have class-leading power when you normalize to four-cylinders. 165 horses from a N/A four banger is pretty good in my book!
Now if SOA would simply bring over turbo Foresters to the US, we'd be back in business.
Also, if you compare only the ones that break the 20mpg barrier (my politically correct lower limit), it's the same thing - Forester is the clear winner.
The WRX and VDC also meet my criteria. Almost none of their competitors do.
First, I now have to see how the S model drives and see if the all wheel disc brakes takes away the mushiness.
Secondly, it looks likely the 2.5lL turbo will come out for the Forester, granted more likely in 2003. But would it be worth the wait? I'm still a little weary of turbo chargers. Also whats this "turbo lag" I keep hearing about, can anyone explain?
have a slight lag while they're being spooled up. Smaller turbos (like the new WRX uses) have less, but still noticeable, lag. From what I've been reading it's not that bad and just takes getting used to. Here's some good turbo info: http://www.howstuffworks.com/turbo.htm
if the OBS comes in that ST-X orange?! It wouldlook so much like a baby STX. Tht's the OBS I saw at the Toronto autoshow. Does the mfgs use the same cars all over the continent?!
Yeah, all Impreza's in Canada get heated mirrors. And the OBS and WRX gets heated seats. :-( Don't know why I would need that in Central NJ. We only had a total of about 36 inches of snow this winter. :-)
Patti - Could you pass along interest in this for the U.S. models? Thanks.
Leo: even without the turbo spooling, a 2.5l engine with a turbo wouldn't have any less power than a N/A 2.5l engine. In fact, torque peaks tend to be lower in the rev range.
I think the alloys are appropriate. The WRX wheels look light, while the OBS wheels look beefy and sturdy, fitting each car's image.
Heated seats are sweet. You don't even realize it until you try them, too. No I want them!
even without the turbo spooling, a 2.5l engine with a turbo wouldn't have any less power than a N/A 2.5l engine.
Uh, that's not at all true. When not making positive pressure (boost) a turbocharger is simply a big fat exhaust restrictor. Of course on an aftermarket turbo'ed EJ25 the spool time is so short this is a moot point, but I just wanted to clarify things.
I personally love unpainted cladding on L and its price/value is outstanding... If you move up to S then it makes more sense to me to jump to S+ (which I did), unless you really dislike monotone color schema.
I'd agreed that the brakes on my Forester probably could use a bit firmer pedal feel than they do. But brakes were much more of a weak point in my previous car ('91 Mazda 626), so, compared with what I was used to, I have no major complaint with the Forester there. The frameless windows did take some getting used to for me, but I haven't encountered any problems yet. In fact, with the windows rolled down, it can make getting into and out of the vehicle easier if you're carrying anything bulky or odd-shaped, since there's no frame in the way. And I find my Forester's power quite adequate. The low-end acceleration (0-40 mph or so), I consider truly excellent. Highway-passing-speed acceleration (say, 50-75 mph) is a bit less impressive, but it's still perfectly acceptable for zipping up a freeway onramp and merging into traffic.
One of the upgrades was the velour cloth on the seats. It feels and looks nice but wonder if it would be less durable than the wooven cloth material covered seats in the L model? For me, personally, the S+ didn't appeal to me. You might this strange but I didn't care for the large moonroof----it was too large for my taste. Ain't I weird?? I like the fact that the S model comes with rear disc brakes and LSD. I'll have to test drive it to see if it improves the feel of the brakes. If the rear disc brakes takes away some of the mushy feel of the brakes then we'll give it some serious consideration. If there isn't any improvements in the feel of the brakes then I don't know if it's worth it---even though those little extras are nice. I was impressed with equipment that came with their base L model! Are you aware how much I'd have to load up the RAV4 just to get an equivalent amount of equipment? The Rav4 would cost about $1400 more. I could move up to the S model for not much more. To me that's a big difference, especialy when you have taxes onto that.
Colin, you're right. However, depending on the design of the exhaust and intake, a bit of restriction could improve low end torque - but you already knew that ;-)
More important IMHO is that turbo motors tend to have considerably lower compression ratios than normally aspirated motors; therefore a 2.5L turbo is not likely to have the same low end power as a non-turbo motor, other things being equal.
Comments
Forester is the only Soob never to have had dealer cash or customer cash incentives, and even it has had cut-rate financing.
-juice
The brakes in my Outback are fine :-). (If you want mushy brakes, my previous ride - '97 Chevy Z71 - suffered from mushy brakes.) I think the 2 stage booster just takes some getting adjusted too. Probably should continue this thread in Meet the Members...
-Brian
My 98 Forester S has what I would describe as a good, firm feel. Another friend who drives a 98 L (with rear drum vs. rear disc) also has similar brake feel as well.
However, when I drove a friend's 99L, I was suprised at how "soft" the brake pedal felt. But then again, another friend of mine who owns a 00S has similar brake feel as my 98S. Hmmmm.
Recently, I had a chance to drive a 00OB Ltd. Sedan for a few days while I was having my tranny worked on. The brakes on that vehicle were very soft -- I had to considerably change my driving habits. A couple days later, I tried driving a 01 VDC Wagon and the brakes felt fine.
A couple days after driving the 00OB Ltd. Sedan, I got back into my 98 Forester S and nearly flew out the windshield at the first stop sign -- that's how different the brake action was.
My guess -- perhaps Subaru made some changes that led to a "softer" brake feel and then corrected it in later models.
Ken
Patti
-mike
re: stx at ny autoshow - it was just an opinion. Not sure I would trust all sources of "a new wagon". The press gets things wrong alot. If it was a new form-function, then why haven't we heard about it from Japan yet? they get everything first...
anyway, its not like anyone here has anything but guesses either
anyway I am now going to change my guess to a new legacy GT with a turbo 2.0 or 2.5 or a forester with a turbo (long overdue!)
seems more likely than bringing the blitzen over here
-mike
paisan: while the Axiom rebadge is a distant possibility, I don't think it'll happen. It's a truck, and Subaru doesn't market trucks. Also, by itself it would not meet CAFE standards.
Give us the H6 Outback sedan, and a 2.5l turbo for both the Forester and Legacy GT. Let's see some class-leading power figures.
-juice
-mike
unless they decide to put an h6 w/auto in the legacy gt .. that would be horrible!
CAFE standard are 20.7 mpg fleet average for trucks, 27.5 mpg fleet average for cars. I'm not sure if they use the highway figure or an average of the EPA figures.
So Isuzu cannot sell the Axiom as a car, else it would pay huge fines.
Subaru is borderline for cars. They were right at the limit, without paying fines. I'm sure they gave the WRX and VDC tall gearing to obtain the 20/27 EPA figures and avoid fines.
Subies could be faster if it were not for CAFE. The WRX has a 3.91 to 1 final drive, but it could easily use the 4.11 final drive from other Subies, gearing it about 5% higher for quicker take-off and less lag. The penalty would be a drop in fuel economy.
So Subaru won't do it, but it does not mean creative owners can't swap them out.
-juice
-mike
Thinks about it, the 2.2l got maybe 26mpg average, and it was the most efficient engine! So how is the average 27.5?
Justy credits? ;-)
I'm not sure, but maybe they use only the highway figure? Even then, your example proves my point.
-juice
Also got a chance to sit in a new yellow WRX. Very nice, and I was surprised that my large frame fit into it, with the seat lowered. I could tell from the smells and crackles that someone had been out driving it, and they weren't just going for a loaf of bread either!
Frank
Re: new wagon at NY.
The more I think about it, a high performance Legacy makes the most sense. It could very well debut the oft-rumored 2.5 turbo, which would make sense. I think when the new Forester does arrive, it will offer that engine. So, it would make sense to get it in the "premium" Legacy before it goes in the Forester.
Juice- Re: tall gearing of the H-6—all the more reason for a 5-speed automatic. I'm sure you noted that every vehicle in the C&D comparo had a 5-speed tranny of some sort, except the Outback.
Paisan- As I'm sure you know, Isuzu doesn't make any cars. Everything they sell here is an SUV, or Class III or larger truck. Also, isn't the Axiom really just a new body on the current Trooper platform, with perhaps a somewhat softer suspension? I'm not sure why Isuzu seems to think that it will appeal to those looking at cross-over SUVs. To me it's still a truck-based SUV, not that there's anything wrong with that (as per G. Seinfeld).
Bob
-mike
Bob: I noticed it was the only 4 speed, too.
But my question is this - how can that 4Mo hit 60 in 8.1s after the same publication clocked one a full 1.5s slower? Auto, too!
-juice
I totally agree with your comments. The brakes in my 97 OBS (rear drum) feel like they grab a lot quicker than the brakes in my wife's 99 OB Ltd. I have to change my driving habits every time I drive it.
Dennis
Anyways, I didn't get a chance to drive the Forester L on the highway so I don't know if its weakness is highway passing or not. But up and down hills on curvey roads it did very well.
In your opinion is it worth the extra $$$ to move up to the S model. The salesman said the L model was the "base" model. But compared to other car manufacturers base model this L model came well equipped in my opinion.
Leo
-mike
New Impreza wagon in non-WRX trim, probably the OBS.
Reason: the only Imprezas I've seen in shows so far have been WRX models.
Cheers,
-wdb
-mike
Is the S worth it? I'd strech that and spring for the S Premium, which is well worth it.
The S (about 2 grand) gives you the rear LSD, heated seats/mirrors/windshield, CD changer, 16" alloys with better tires, rear disc brakes, and more.
The Premium package (under a grand) gets you that convertible roof and side air bags, plus the monotone paint.
But you are correct - even the L is well equipped to start with. ABS, AWD, power windows/locks/mirrors, A/C, cassette, etc. If you put value ahead of features, go for it.
I think they showed the OBS in Chicago. Right?
-juice
Dennis
I really think we'll see a new "flavor" of the Legacy wagon, never before seen. To me, that's the most logical choice. Also, remember the NY Show is often used for "big" introductions by Subaru. I really do expect to see the 2.5 turbo in a Legacy wagon. I'd be really surprised if it's anything else.
Bob
Bob
-mike
As for the accuracy of WAG I, that's why I called it a WAG ;-)
Cheers,
-wdb
I think the price is a step up from the Escapes. Isn't it more in the heart of the mid-size SUV market?
-juice
-mike
I wonder where a GT Turbo would be priced? I say drop the GT Ltd and let the turbo take its place, for a similar price (hope so!), but give us a sedan and wagon.
If it costs more, at least give us VDC and HIDs. And a 6 speed. I prefer the cheaper alternative, or both, though.
-juice
Actually, I still think of the Forester to have class-leading power when you normalize to four-cylinders. 165 horses from a N/A four banger is pretty good in my book!
Now if SOA would simply bring over turbo Foresters to the US, we'd be back in business.
Ken
Also, if you compare only the ones that break the 20mpg barrier (my politically correct lower limit), it's the same thing - Forester is the clear winner.
The WRX and VDC also meet my criteria. Almost none of their competitors do.
-juice
Secondly, it looks likely the 2.5lL turbo will come out for the Forester, granted more likely in 2003. But would it be worth the wait? I'm still a little weary of turbo chargers. Also whats this "turbo lag" I keep hearing about, can anyone explain?
Leo
Dennis
-Brian
-Dan
I actually prefer the OBS wheels. They look better (IMHO), and are a bit easier to clean.
Bob
Bob
Don't know why I would need that in Central NJ. We only had a total of about 36 inches of snow this winter. :-)
Patti - Could you pass along interest in this for the U.S. models? Thanks.
Dennis
I think the alloys are appropriate. The WRX wheels look light, while the OBS wheels look beefy and sturdy, fitting each car's image.
Heated seats are sweet. You don't even realize it until you try them, too. No I want them!
-juice
Uh, that's not at all true. When not making positive pressure (boost) a turbocharger is simply a big fat exhaust restrictor. Of course on an aftermarket turbo'ed EJ25 the spool time is so short this is a moot point, but I just wanted to clarify things.
-Colin
I personally love unpainted cladding on L and its price/value is outstanding... If you move up to S then it makes more sense to me to jump to S+ (which I did), unless you really dislike monotone color schema.
The frameless windows did take some getting used to for me, but I haven't encountered any problems yet. In fact, with the windows rolled down, it can make getting into and out of the vehicle easier if you're carrying anything bulky or odd-shaped, since there's no frame in the way.
And I find my Forester's power quite adequate. The low-end acceleration (0-40 mph or so), I consider truly excellent. Highway-passing-speed acceleration (say, 50-75 mph) is a bit less impressive, but it's still perfectly acceptable for zipping up a freeway onramp and merging into traffic.
For me, personally, the S+ didn't appeal to me. You might this strange but I didn't care for the large moonroof----it was too large for my taste. Ain't I weird??
I like the fact that the S model comes with rear disc brakes and LSD. I'll have to test drive it to see if it improves the feel of the brakes. If the rear disc brakes takes away some of the mushy feel of the brakes then we'll give it some serious consideration. If there isn't any improvements in the feel of the brakes then I don't know if it's worth it---even though those little extras are nice.
I was impressed with equipment that came with their base L model! Are you aware how much I'd have to load up the RAV4 just to get an equivalent amount of equipment? The Rav4 would cost about $1400 more. I could move up to the S model for not much more. To me that's a big difference, especialy when you have taxes onto that.
Leo
More important IMHO is that turbo motors tend to have considerably lower compression ratios than normally aspirated motors; therefore a 2.5L turbo is not likely to have the same low end power as a non-turbo motor, other things being equal.
Cheers,
-wdb