Good point, Frank. But I say $35 grand to my wife, she balks and says forget it.
Can't say I blame them, honestly. The MDX is a hot seller and has been for years. Sustained demand like that is impressive. And I'm sure profit margins are higher for the MDX than they are for the Pilot.
Still wish they'd come in at Pilot pricing, though. Better yet, Pacifica pricing.
bob and juice. we need to get you guys further up the food chain as representives of a very vocal and influencal audience.
just myself i have changed several peoples opinion of subaru via a friendly test drive amongst friends. juice/bob, heck the whole gang, i could see you touching hundreds if not thousands of opinions.
so as you all got to go to detroit, i believe it to be in SoA best interest to get our representives input into future vehicle designs, starting with the 7 seater.
I looked at Pacificas at the show, they definitely seem smaller than the MDX. Maybe that's just my impression.
The other thing is that Chrysler tends to compete on price, so the initial pricing was ambitious to say the least.
We haven't seen it, but SoA hints that the Subie will be closer to the Ford Freestyle. That seemed bigger than the Pacifica. Let's see where Ford's prices end up, though.
the recent road rally ( i believe 48 hrs??? ) across the NJ,NY vicinity. if i see that stream of cars on the turnpike it is gonna make me say 'wow look at all these people that love their subarus. something must be going on, let me look'. these guys were traveling for hundreds of miles. imagine the amount of people that had positive reinforcement of their subaru decisions or decided to come to places like this to read about subarus.
Something we forgot to mention is that the Legacy gets a smart air bags. We were discussing this in the Forester thread, but apparently it can tell if noone is in passenger seat, and then it won't deploy the air bags in a crash so it's not wasted.
I missed the details, but there is a warning light and another that measures the weight of the passenger? That's what Alex (from i-Club) was telling me. Sounds hard to believe.
Maybe Ken can check that out, or maybe Bob remembers the details better than I do?
Also, we forgot to get pics of the shifter buttons on the steering wheel, up close.
But there was some kind of overhead display, Alex was telling me it displayed the weight of the passenger? Seems odd, maybe he misunderstood what was being said.
I agree that the MDX/Pilot should be the target for the Subaru 7-seater. If it existed today there's a good chance one would be in our driveway - next to (not in place of) my Forester of course.
The Ford Freestyle looks like a direct copy of the Outback/Forester formula; a sincere form of flattery but also perhaps an even greater challenge to Subaru's market share than Tribscape.
I have driven my brother-in-law's MDX several times........ it runs great, does not feel bulky 3rd row seat leg room is aweful(compared to minivans) good visibility for its size lately, the suspension has become stiff compared to my 3yr old OB.
I hope sub 7-seater will win me over my MPV on third row seating comfort which is the KEY for a 7-seater !
also, i prefer 2nd row sliding door than openining doors........
Pilot has a little more room than the MDX, I think, and costs less. You can't get some features on it, though, that Subaru will likely offer. That my be why they chose to target the MDX.
I found it odd, for example, that heated front seats and side mirrors (part of what we would consider the Cold Weather Package) are only available on Pilot EXs with leather seats.
The Pilot has slightly more rear cargo room than the MDX due to the shape of their respective rooflines.
Once I log more seat time in the Pilot I can speak with a little more authority.
Its what we were going to buy but it just had WAY too much wind/road noise and the 3rd row is a pain to access. On the plus side it did feel light on it feet and well put together.
My Sienna has that. A switch in the passenger seat detects a person (or weighted object) and will start flashing the seat belt light until said person is buckled up. Now a sensor that tells you the person's weight is definitely a safety issue!
Similarly, some vehicles like the MDX will illuminate a "Side Air Bag Off" light to let you know that the passenger is not seated properly, thus disabling the side impact bag - for example if someone is small and light or sleeping and leaning up against B pillar.
Well there you go, I bet Subaru will have a moonroof and other features the Pilot doesn't have, so they're calling the MDX the competitor. I also bet it's smaller size had something to do with it.
The catch? Consumers may still compare it to the cheaper/bigger Pilot.
I'm still amazed at how quiet and well isolated our 2k OB Ltd. is. The VDC is even more quiet and refined. I'm predicting that the Subaru 7-passenger will be more refined than the MDX in its first year.
I agree with juice that "Consumers may still compare it to the cheaper/bigger Pilot." which is a serious problem because the Pilot is a really good value (about $30.5k with leather was the first quote we got). The base MDX we looked at was at least $6000 more than that if I remember correctly and we did not look at the Touring version which is even more than that. The problem in both (for us) was we need easy access to the 3rd row. I hope Subaru makes that a selling point. That, among other things, is the reason we went with the Sienna XLE AWD at about $32k. Lots of room and AWD are now easy to find. What I wanted was easy to use.
If they made a bigger OB that seated 7 I would be driving it now as long as it was under $40k.
I actually went shopping for an MDX, and it drove me squarely back towards the VDC and Bean Outbacks. Way too much wind noise on the MDX, and even though everyone says it handles great for an SUV, it drives like a minivan. Not surprising considering its origins (Odyssey). The roof rack is useless, and the quality of the MDX is not too good (several interior trim pieces were falling off). If you really want an Acura SUV, I guess it's the way to go, but it's not the best vehicle I have driven by a long shot. Hard to believe there was a waiting list at the time!
We also test drove the Acura CL, and tried really hard to like it, but it was a disappointment. Felt like a overpriced and dimwitted Accord. So that's two Acuras I have not been impressed with. The RSX, on the other hand, nearly won my heart, and narrowly lost to the WRX in my shopping.
If you are willing to go just north of $30k you can get the XLE AWD with leather and their entire air bag, TC/VDC, 17" rim, fancy stereo, 2-row integrated shade(the best option!!!), and the all-power door package (its called the XLE AWD GK CF). The LE AWD can be had for $29k with w/o leather and all the other goodies but with the air bag, TC/VDC, 17" rims.
Relative to whats out there it just seemed like a fantastic deal.
I'm the opposite.....I want it to be a minivan and proud of it.
but I have to admit... as of the late models coming out now, the minivans/crossovers are looking very impressive; especially the minivans like the Quest and the upcoming Odessey (sp?). The Sienna is OK... just alittle bland from the side...
I think the NAVs are better in the aftermarket. They generally have DVD upgrades and can be pulled and put in your next car rather than being intertwined with the stock wiring harness.
I don't have the cash to put one in my car or I would have done that already. I'm stuck with my laptop that works pretty good so far.
Since you should not be reading one of those screens as you drive anyway then the handheld GPS units will even do. I intend to use my Garmin for basic navigation on my trip out west this summer. It shows all US and state highways and even services at interstate exits on a little $200 8 megabyte device (Garmin eTrex Legend) I have rechargeable batteries and a car adaptor cord. It is about the size of an average cell phone. Its biggest downside is its tiny black and white screen. However there are plenty of other handheld units including the $600 Palm/GPS color screen handheld by Garmin.
"Since you should not be reading one of those screens as you drive".
like i have never looked at my cell phone, a map, look for my coffee mug. geez i aint gonna try and memorize whats on the screen when i am driving, just glancing to see what intersections are coming up, etc.
DETROIT, Jan. 12 — The Subaru Outback sedan looks like any other midsize car, with a trunk and comfortable seating for four adults.
But Subaru is tweaking some parts of the Outback sedan and wagon this year to meet the specifications of a light truck, the same regulatory category used by pickups and sport utilities. Why? Largely to avoid tougher fuel economy and air pollution standards for cars.
"more capable" Outback, and I'm hoping more capability is part of the package. Having said that, I'm sorry to see Subaru succumbing to government loopholes.
If I shopped for a van I guess I wouldn't care much what it looked like, it's pure functionality.
But wow, just a 3?
Bob - good point. Remember the last TL ran about $27k? 5 years later it's $33k, and the TSX costs what the TL used to.
chenke: good catch, and did I call it or what? Actually I'd said the next Forester would be certified as a truck, but I expected Subaru would do this for CAFE purposes, and so they can tint the windows.
Sure enough, those are the two reasons mentioned for the change.
The Outback sedan should be dropped, though. 8% of sales, for all this controversy? I say drop it. Certifying the Outback as a truck will be an easier sell to people since it is a legit alternative to those types of vehicles.
If they really do build the sedan, this could get ugly. PT Cruiser made people mad enough. I bet the rules are revised if Subaru certifies the sedan.
Yummy, now we get to speculate about the next Outback.
I say it'll get:
* a full 9" of ground clearance * tinted windows like the Baja * removeable rear seats (to qualify as a truck) * rear seats that slide fore/aft * H4, H6 and turbo engines * self-leveling rear suspension
The rear seats will have to be very different than the Legacy to qualify, so I say they'll be like the CR-V's. They will also be very different than the JDM model. I just hope we don't get a ton more cladding a la Baja.
Also, they say it'll be higher off the ground, the VDC is already 7.9", so I'll guess 9".
Finally, it's about time to bring that self-leveling rear suspension. And if they really do call it a truck, 3500 lbs towing, no excuses.
WHO did it make mad though? did the vehicles sell and increase profitability? did it affect DCX in an overall negative way?
1. no reasonable people cared, and the handful of extremists are going to be pissed no matter what. oh well. I know Subaru has the whole nature thing going here in North America but really are any hardcore environuts going to buy something besides a hybrid or CNG powered vehicle?
2. they sold far better when new and generated a lot of profit. they still sell reasonably well today although perhaps production volume is too high --that's a management issue, not market niche.
3. pure opinion here, but my gut definitely says NO.
can we condense all this down somewhere? this whole issue is just Subaru joining the cadence line, and everyone else has been dancing for some time. want fair? ditch the light truck standard! or reign in the overly-powerful and unchecked EPA to get them to stop the escalation of fuel standards. the core issue really doesn't have much to do with the new Outback.
I agree with Colin, whats with the controversy, most people won't give a rats what a vehicle is classified as.
And as Frank says make it a level playing field for all auto makers, the big 3 especially have exploited this loophole and others for years and not much has been said about it.
Either close the loopholes or get over it, and if this is going to be an ongoing topic lets take it to the cafe perhaps?
Because of the Times article, Bloomberg news radio keeps running the story about SOA changing the Outback to light truck status. The actual rating does not matter to us here on the crew.
The problem as I see it is that the bad publicity could hurt. Subaru tries to show the OB as an alternative to a truck, now they are going to say it is a truck? That is where the confusuion lies.
BTW-the article said the new OB will get a raised suspension max of 8.7 inches.
Actually, the thing that struck me most about the article was the direct link they made between Subaru's introduction of turbos into each of its models and the sudden need for Subaru to jump on the loophole bandwagon.
Comments
Can't say I blame them, honestly. The MDX is a hot seller and has been for years. Sustained demand like that is impressive. And I'm sure profit margins are higher for the MDX than they are for the Pilot.
Still wish they'd come in at Pilot pricing, though. Better yet, Pacifica pricing.
-juice
-Brian
just myself i have changed several peoples opinion of subaru via a friendly test drive amongst friends. juice/bob, heck the whole gang, i could see you touching hundreds if not thousands of opinions.
so as you all got to go to detroit, i believe it to be in SoA best interest to get our representives input into future vehicle designs, starting with the 7 seater.
The other thing is that Chrysler tends to compete on price, so the initial pricing was ambitious to say the least.
We haven't seen it, but SoA hints that the Subie will be closer to the Ford Freestyle. That seemed bigger than the Pacifica. Let's see where Ford's prices end up, though.
For us, here is our new car pricing pattern:
'91 Escort GT: $11k
'95 626 ES: $21k
'98 Forester L: $19k
'02 Legacly L: $18k
Next car: $35k?
That's a substantial leap for us. I've seen 8 seater Sienna LE models for $24k street price, how can I justify the other $10 grand?
-juice
Greg
I missed the details, but there is a warning light and another that measures the weight of the passenger? That's what Alex (from i-Club) was telling me. Sounds hard to believe.
Maybe Ken can check that out, or maybe Bob remembers the details better than I do?
Also, we forgot to get pics of the shifter buttons on the steering wheel, up close.
-juice
-Frank P.
-juice
The Ford Freestyle looks like a direct copy of the Outback/Forester formula; a sincere form of flattery but also perhaps an even greater challenge to Subaru's market share than Tribscape.
Ed
-juice
it runs great,
does not feel bulky
3rd row seat leg room is aweful(compared to minivans)
good visibility for its size
lately, the suspension has become stiff compared to my 3yr old OB.
I hope sub 7-seater will win me over my MPV on third row seating comfort which is the KEY for a 7-seater !
also, i prefer 2nd row sliding door than openining doors........
-juice
The Pilot has slightly more rear cargo room than the MDX due to the shape of their respective rooflines.
Once I log more seat time in the Pilot I can speak with a little more authority.
Ed
-juice
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Greg
The catch? Consumers may still compare it to the cheaper/bigger Pilot.
-juice
I agree with juice that "Consumers may still compare it to the cheaper/bigger Pilot." which is a serious problem because the Pilot is a really good value (about $30.5k with leather was the first quote we got). The base MDX we looked at was at least $6000 more than that if I remember correctly and we did not look at the Touring version which is even more than that. The problem in both (for us) was we need easy access to the 3rd row. I hope Subaru makes that a selling point. That, among other things, is the reason we went with the Sienna XLE AWD at about $32k. Lots of room and AWD are now easy to find. What I wanted was easy to use.
If they made a bigger OB that seated 7 I would be driving it now as long as it was under $40k.
We also test drove the Acura CL, and tried really hard to like it, but it was a disappointment. Felt like a overpriced and dimwitted Accord. So that's two Acuras I have not been impressed with. The RSX, on the other hand, nearly won my heart, and narrowly lost to the WRX in my shopping.
Craig
The H6 models get extra insulation and I'm sure the 7 seater will, too. That should make it quiet and refined.
I drove a Pilot and it felt OK for a big vehicle. I'm hoping the Subie impresses me more. Pilot definitely sells on interior utility.
-juice
Greg
-juice
-mike
But how reliable are the other aftermarket navs as well as update/upgrades?
I'll start looking when Subaru says they won't offer it.. not even as an option.
Relative to whats out there it just seemed like a fantastic deal.
I'm the opposite.....I want it to be a minivan and proud of it.
Anyway, just MHO ;-)
I don't have the cash to put one in my car or I would have done that already. I'm stuck with my laptop that works pretty good so far.
-mike
Greg
Minivan fun scale:
MPV 8
Oddessy 7
Quest 6
Town and Country 5
EuroVan 5
Caravan 4
Sienna 3
Venture 3
Sedona 2
Astro 1
Savana 1
AWD and 50 more horses would get the MPV and 10. The SRX looks a little funny to my eye but its tremendous if you can get into the mid-$40k range.
I should add that I went from saving for an Audi S6 Avant to buying a Sienna XLE AWD.
TWRX
like i have never looked at my cell phone, a map, look for my coffee mug. geez i aint gonna try and memorize whats on the screen when i am driving, just glancing to see what intersections are coming up, etc.
Bob
-mike
Jim
Steve
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/13/automobiles/13SUBA.html?hp=&- ;amp- ;pagewanted=all&position=
(requires a free registration)
DETROIT, Jan. 12 — The Subaru Outback sedan looks like any other midsize car, with a trunk and comfortable seating for four adults.
But Subaru is tweaking some parts of the Outback sedan and wagon this year to meet the specifications of a light truck, the same regulatory category used by pickups and sport utilities. Why? Largely to avoid tougher fuel economy and air pollution standards for cars.
...
This could hurt Subaru's image. In the past Subaru has done everything they can to distance themselves from trucks; not so anymore.
This article does mention Outback sedan, so it looks like that model will continue.
Bob
Bob
But wow, just a 3?
Bob - good point. Remember the last TL ran about $27k? 5 years later it's $33k, and the TSX costs what the TL used to.
chenke: good catch, and did I call it or what? Actually I'd said the next Forester would be certified as a truck, but I expected Subaru would do this for CAFE purposes, and so they can tint the windows.
Sure enough, those are the two reasons mentioned for the change.
The Outback sedan should be dropped, though. 8% of sales, for all this controversy? I say drop it. Certifying the Outback as a truck will be an easier sell to people since it is a legit alternative to those types of vehicles.
If they really do build the sedan, this could get ugly. PT Cruiser made people mad enough. I bet the rules are revised if Subaru certifies the sedan.
-juice
I say it'll get:
* a full 9" of ground clearance
* tinted windows like the Baja
* removeable rear seats (to qualify as a truck)
* rear seats that slide fore/aft
* H4, H6 and turbo engines
* self-leveling rear suspension
The rear seats will have to be very different than the Legacy to qualify, so I say they'll be like the CR-V's. They will also be very different than the JDM model. I just hope we don't get a ton more cladding a la Baja.
Also, they say it'll be higher off the ground, the VDC is already 7.9", so I'll guess 9".
Finally, it's about time to bring that self-leveling rear suspension. And if they really do call it a truck, 3500 lbs towing, no excuses.
This could spell good news for Bob!
-juice
WHO did it make mad though? did the vehicles sell and increase profitability? did it affect DCX in an overall negative way?
1. no reasonable people cared, and the handful of extremists are going to be pissed no matter what. oh well. I know Subaru has the whole nature thing going here in North America but really are any hardcore environuts going to buy something besides a hybrid or CNG powered vehicle?
2. they sold far better when new and generated a lot of profit. they still sell reasonably well today although perhaps production volume is too high --that's a management issue, not market niche.
3. pure opinion here, but my gut definitely says NO.
can we condense all this down somewhere? this whole issue is just Subaru joining the cadence line, and everyone else has been dancing for some time. want fair? ditch the light truck standard! or reign in the overly-powerful and unchecked EPA to get them to stop the escalation of fuel standards. the core issue really doesn't have much to do with the new Outback.
-c
And as Frank says make it a level playing field for all auto makers, the big 3 especially have exploited this loophole and others for years and not much has been said about it.
Either close the loopholes or get over it, and if this is going to be an ongoing topic lets take it to the cafe perhaps?
Cheers Pat.
The problem as I see it is that the bad publicity could hurt. Subaru tries to show the OB as an alternative to a truck, now they are going to say it is a truck? That is where the confusuion lies.
BTW-the article said the new OB will get a raised suspension max of 8.7 inches.
Mark
Chris